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Old 06-05-2016, 12:04 PM   #51
Snorby
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If we actually had an accessible definition for and/or guide to using Reed somewhere, I'd switch to using it in a heartbeat, but the only actually written thing about it leaves SO much up to the ref that you won't actually know how much offtype you can use until it's already been used, which is a problem in that it makes long-term planning difficult.

I feel like the best way to make people stop spamming is make the attack you're spamming less effective the more you use it in rapid succession. Easier to get a partial on, easier to disrupt, the works. I hesitate to call it diminishing returns since I think it's something that should fade after a few rounds of disuse.

In regards to mid-term exhaustion and whether we should have 2 move breathers, I think the way it makes the most sense is to have benchmarks in terms of total energy used in the round.

Beyond Extreme- Overly exerting. You'll tire more quickly than usual.

Extreme- The average. You'll tire at the usual rate.

Major- A fairly light round. Can help delay fatigue somewhat, and you'll tire more slowly than usual.

Significant or Less- A Breather. Will help you get over fatigue and will tire you much less than an average round.

Obviously, there are other factors: Number of moves used, any interrupted moves, Fighting SC, Drains, Wish, things like that. But I think this is a good place to start in defining Mid-Term exhaustion.

So I'd say yes, we should have two move breathers, and no, they should not be as effective as their one move counterparts.

Long-Term exhaustion could probably be as simple as "the more energy you've used relative to your opponent, the easier it is for your opponent to get the jump on you and avoid or disrupt your attacks."

Short-Term is really very simple in my mind since so few attacks use it. Did you just use Thunder/Superpower/Blizzard? Yes? You'll need to take a few seconds after using it to catch your breath, and you might tire in the Mid-Term a little more quickly than if you had use an attack of equivalent energy use that does not trigger Short-Term exhaustion No? Then this doesn't really effect you.

Having these fairly clear cut definitions makes it incredibly simple to implement all forms of exhaustion in reffing, and anyone who doesn't with something like the above plastered into announcements/the site/etc should really have it reflect poorly on them for the purposes of the ref evals we're soon to be due for.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:14 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorby View Post
If we actually had an accessible definition for and/or guide to using Reed somewhere, I'd switch to using it in a heartbeat, but the only actually written thing about it leaves SO much up to the ref that you won't actually know how much offtype you can use until it's already been used, which is a problem in that it makes long-term planning difficult.
Iunno. I've used Reed for quite some time now and nobody seems to take any issue with it. Then again, my policy has always been "if you're even remotely unsure, feel free to ask" because yes, it is incredibly convoluted for anyone who is not an experienced ref.

As for exhaustion as a whole... I really feel like the rules we have set in place are frankly fine. I just also feel like people have a habit of taking literally any scrap of "Ref's Discretion" they can get their hands on and stretching it until it covers their football field of terrible decisions.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:59 PM   #53
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I don't really like "The rules are fine the people suck" as an argument, because if nothing else rules a whole lot easier to change than people. If we can force people to use their discretion correctly when far too many refs have not been, we should probably do that.

The only other option is limiting ref's discretion, which as we've seen in the not-too-distant past leads to nothing but battlers abusing their refs, ref dissatisfaction, and lowered quality and quantity in reffing.
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Old 06-06-2016, 03:42 PM   #54
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Well the issue there, quite honestly, is that often the rules ARE fine and people simply DO suck. And ref's discretion is commonly misconstrued to mean I DON'T CARE I DO WHAT I WANT.
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Old 06-06-2016, 04:01 PM   #55
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We need a better way to teach refs and a better method for battler-ref issues. This is not new, but it's just hard to do short of dragooning Connor into reviewing the reffings of every ref that's C grade or below for every match. Which is probably doable if we offer him enough fake internet points.

In the meantime this topic isn't about ref mistakes.
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