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Old 06-04-2016, 06:02 AM   #26
Mercutio
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Edit ok fine let me rephrase.

I thought the problem was that no refs bothered to enforce one movers or ever gave you a benefit for choosing to order one. I thought refs never kept track of tiredness, let alone made it have an impact each round.

I find it amazing that anyone could possibly think refs are being too strict about enforcing measured pacing. To me the problem with exhaustion is that exhaustion does not exist.

Am I wrong?

Or, alternatively, is this thread based on an inaccurate premise?

Last edited by Mercutio; 06-04-2016 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:12 AM   #27
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Edit ok fine let me rephrase.

I thought the problem was that no refs bothered to enforce one movers or ever gave you a benefit for choosing to order one. I thought refs never kept track of tiredness, let alone made it have an impact each round.

I find it amazing that anyone could possibly think refs are being too strict about enforcing measured pacing. To me the problem with exhaustion is that exhaustion does not exist.

Am I wrong?

Or, alternatively, is this thread based on an inaccurate premise?
Kush, I was under the impression that it was going to be to more tight, not more liberal. I do feel that the more seasoned refs apply exhaustion much earlier than other refs. So, there are a few that do it conservatively, while a large majority still struggles to mention it or warn the trainer properly.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:15 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
Edit ok fine let me rephrase.

I thought the problem was that no refs bothered to enforce one movers or ever gave you a benefit for choosing to order one. I thought refs never kept track of tiredness, let alone made it have an impact each round.

I find it amazing that anyone could possibly think refs are being too strict about enforcing measured pacing. To me the problem with exhaustion is that exhaustion does not exist.

Am I wrong?

Or, alternatively, is this thread based on an inaccurate premise?
Putting aside your charismatic absolutism, I see your point. Do you propose a fix for the problem you've identified?

I'd try to answer your last question, but there are other people who know/care more than I do.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:19 AM   #29
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I am first attempting to understand whether we are working from the right premise. Once I know the premise I can offer a suggestion on moving towards our stated objective, if this would be helpful.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:24 AM   #30
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I am first attempting to understand whether we are working from the right premise. Once I know the premise I can offer a suggestion on moving towards our stated objective, if this would be helpful.
Well, then it's not really a question of whether or not you're wrong. If you have an opinion of how exhaustion is being handled that is different from other people's opinions--because we're talking about opinions, and not being right or wrong, which is different--then the conclusion is that we're unclear, and the objective is to think of a solution that will make the topic of exhaustion clear for everyone, regardless of their opinion.

Moving on to being helpful.
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Old 06-04-2016, 06:34 AM   #31
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Im of the same opinion as Kush. I feel like exhaustion needs to be the strong factor that it is and im not really fond of the new ideas being put forth. It pretty much just lets you throw attacks until the ref says take a break under these new ideas. Being able to pace yourself is something that can often separate at good battler from a 'not as good one'.
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Old 06-04-2016, 08:40 AM   #32
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I think what the problem is is that there is a poor understanding either way. For pretty much the entire history of ASB, exhaustion has been under reffed to the point you could reel off three Thunders with no drawback. In my recent battles I've seen exhaustion be crippling. You can't get off one without the risk of falling behind completely.

The issue honestly is a lack of understanding of the mechanic, which results in both problems. We definitely need it to keep spam under control, but it should completely devalue offensive risks and high power attacks as a consequence.

Also nothing I've said so far is a new rule. It is literally me just clarifying what already exists.

Though exhaustion needs to be written out of moves regardless of how the mechanic is reffed because they can be interpreted as a double whammy in the current rules.
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Old 06-04-2016, 09:04 AM   #33
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I disagree that it needs to be written out because it technically isnt in there. What they cause is a pokemon to become winded, which just means they will need a moment to recover, unlike exhaustion which requires a one mover. What that does is stop someone from perfectly getting off thunder x 2.
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Old 06-04-2016, 09:08 AM   #34
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I disagree that it needs to be written out because it technically isnt in there. What they cause is a pokemon to become winded, which just means they will need a moment to recover, unlike exhaustion which requires a one mover. What that does is stop someone from perfectly getting off thunder x 2.
I consider one thunder/blizzard/fireblast a moment that they will feel fatigued and slower to react. If they couple that with exhausting, they will pant heavier and have a much harder time evading or setting up their own attack on time unless we are talking about stuff like protect or safeguard.
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Old 06-04-2016, 09:09 AM   #35
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Agree with all of that, Jeri.
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Old 06-04-2016, 09:14 AM   #36
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I think what the problem is is that there is a poor understanding either way. For pretty much the entire history of ASB, exhaustion has been under reffed to the point you could reel off three Thunders with no drawback. In my recent battles I've seen exhaustion be crippling. You can't get off one without the risk of falling behind completely.

The issue honestly is a lack of understanding of the mechanic, which results in both problems. We definitely need it to keep spam under control, but it should completely devalue offensive risks and high power attacks as a consequence.

Also nothing I've said so far is a new rule. It is literally me just clarifying what already exists.

Though exhaustion needs to be written out of moves regardless of how the mechanic is reffed because they can be interpreted as a double whammy in the current rules.
I have a slight issue with contending it, because at times I want to question it and I get backlash because the end answer is ref's discretion. We are also having issues with speed of attacks and how quick should they fire. Not that long ago I saw a massive level attack fire before a defensive decent level attack and the only justification was enthusiasm and initiative while it being the first round for both pokemon. It felt like the pokemon fired an attack near the level of hyper beam and was justified to fire quicker with just two components that shouldn't inherently add that much speed. I get that justification being used for an attack probably a heavy level.

Tbh, I dont know how to tackle that type of issue because it will always be ref's discretion and the trainer has to live with it.

So adding to the discussion, firing speeds seem to be off when a pokemon is fresh off the ball.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:08 AM   #37
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I disagree that it needs to be written out because it technically isnt in there. What they cause is a pokemon to become winded, which just means they will need a moment to recover, unlike exhaustion which requires a one mover. What that does is stop someone from perfectly getting off thunder x 2.
The rule technically reads that way. What happens in practice is that people say "oh this move is explicitly more exhausting they have to take a one-mover now or suffer".

If people are reffing exhaustion well, you will not get off two Thunders without the second being a big ask.

Relatedly, how do people feel about moves losing power earlier and speed drops only happen after exhaustion lingers? I feel like that is actually is more balanced and easier to ref.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:12 AM   #38
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Moves that induce fatigue will make the pokemon lose how much power? Also, could you please comment on what I shared prior to your post please?
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:32 AM   #39
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Relatedly, how do people feel about moves losing power earlier and speed drops only happen after exhaustion lingers? I feel like that is actually is more balanced and easier to ref.
I'm not really sure I like this. It feels counter-intuitive and makes exhaustion significantly more crippling for no good reason- If you think the exhaustion in your recent matches is bad, think about how much worse it would be to have your attacks significantly weakened so you have literally no way to pressure your opponent for the whole round.

Unless only damaging attacks would be weakened for some reason but that seems really silly and even more counter-intuitive.
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Old 06-04-2016, 01:26 PM   #40
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I look at it like there are three types of exhaustion: Short Term, Mid-Term, and Long Term.

Long Term is based on basically just your total energy/how many rounds you've been battling. This is the "I don't care if you just Rested, a Pokemon with a third of its energy is gonna be much more fatigued than a pokemon fresh out the ball.

Short Term is the "Oh fuck I just used Superpower let me catch my breath for a second then I'll be okay". This can factor into mid-term, but it's its own thing. Using Superpower will not require you to need a breather round or wreck you for half a round. It isn't Hyper Beam. It's just a short recovery time after you use a high powered move. It's kinda a thing for all moves, but it generally isn't significant enough to care about for most moves.

Mid-Term is the standard "you need a breather" bullshit. High energy rounds will push this along more than average energy rounds. Two Ice Beams is not an average energy round. 1 HB is average. Number of moves you use also counts. A 3 mover that adds up to two Tbolts of energy will exhaust you more than just 2 TBolts. Draining doesn't automatically refresh you (unless it's a whole shitton of energy) but it can help you keep going. Fighting SC is also a thing. If you ignore breathers, then you'll be a bit sloppy in the next round but it won't cripple you. You'd have to ignore it badly in order for something to seriously go wrong. Base the extent of this on what their recent energy use has been looking like. If they've used 2 HBs in the last two rounds then the effects won't be as bad as if they used 3. Generally speaking, you should aim for "detrimental, but not strategically inviable".

Think of it like you're playing some Ultimate Frisbee. Short Term is the feeling you get after you sprinted across the field so you can lay out in the end zone. Mid Term is the feeling you get after you've played hard for three straight points and so it's time to rotate out for a point then come back in later. Long Term is the fatigue you feel after the game is finished as an accumulation of all the energy you exerted over the course of the game.
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Old 06-04-2016, 02:01 PM   #41
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Stealthy is the hero ASB needs but does not deserve.
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Old 06-04-2016, 03:20 PM   #42
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Stealthy stated the round average to be 1 HB. I though the round average was usually Blizzard worth of energy, or at least where we should keep the average at if longevity is what we have in mind for a neutral match up to last an average of eight rounds.
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Old 06-04-2016, 03:56 PM   #43
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If we want to use anime evidence Pokemon are shown to have a lot more stamina then we give them. In the first movie when ash turns to stone Pikachu hits him with 4-5 thunderbolts before it fails, and that's after running around all day and getting beat up by the clone Pikachu. Not saying we should go by this but wanted to provide the reference.

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Around 1:02 to 1:30 is when it does the thunderbolts
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Old 06-04-2016, 03:57 PM   #44
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If we want to use anime evidence Pokemon are shown to have a lot more stamina then we give them. In the first movie when ash turns to stone Pikachu hits him with 4-5 thunderbolts before it fails, and that's after running around all day and getting beat up by the clone Pikachu. Not saying we should go by this but wanted to provide the reference.

Spoiler: show
https://youtu.be/0gPH4nFrmN4

Around 1:02 to 1:30 is when it does the thunderbolts
In the anime, a Tepig took out a Hydreigon with ember.
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Old 06-04-2016, 04:02 PM   #45
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1 HB has always been the standard I used. I think Major is far too low considering there are a fair amount of actually attacks that cost MORE than that.

@Bigg this is about making the game into something balanced and playable, which is far more important than anime evidence.
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Old 06-04-2016, 04:08 PM   #46
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A HB is about right. People should be able to use a low energy move in conjunction with a high energy move and not feel much difference than if they had used a standard round, really. Also, the current shift has pushed the standard move power to be about solid, so.
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Old 06-04-2016, 04:12 PM   #47
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Health and energy is one thing where, annoyingly, the animé is 100% meaningless as a reference guide. Totally pointless to even think about it comparing them. It's all controlled by plot necessity - Pikachu OHKOing a Rhydon springs to mind.

As above, this is about the need to create a balanced game. We need multiple playstyles to be feasible - it should be possible for me to stall out my opponent to a degree, just as it should be possible to kill a Pokémon in five or six rounds if I really push it and do a good job.

But I should be tired at the end of it.
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Old 06-04-2016, 10:41 PM   #48
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When Ash went to that fancy battle place in Kalos Pikachu was shown letting off a hilarious amount of quick succession Electro-Ball attacks.

I laughed incredibly hard when thinking how that scene would relate to ASB.
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Old 06-05-2016, 06:35 AM   #49
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I look at it like there are three types of exhaustion: Short Term, Mid-Term, and Long Term.

Long Term is based on basically just your total energy/how many rounds you've been battling. This is the "I don't care if you just Rested, a Pokemon with a third of its energy is gonna be much more fatigued than a pokemon fresh out the ball.

Short Term is the "Oh fuck I just used Superpower let me catch my breath for a second then I'll be okay". This can factor into mid-term, but it's its own thing. Using Superpower will not require you to need a breather round or wreck you for half a round. It isn't Hyper Beam. It's just a short recovery time after you use a high powered move. It's kinda a thing for all moves, but it generally isn't significant enough to care about for most moves.

Mid-Term is the standard "you need a breather" bullshit. High energy rounds will push this along more than average energy rounds. Two Ice Beams is not an average energy round. 1 HB is average. Number of moves you use also counts. A 3 mover that adds up to two Tbolts of energy will exhaust you more than just 2 TBolts. Draining doesn't automatically refresh you (unless it's a whole shitton of energy) but it can help you keep going. Fighting SC is also a thing. If you ignore breathers, then you'll be a bit sloppy in the next round but it won't cripple you. You'd have to ignore it badly in order for something to seriously go wrong. Base the extent of this on what their recent energy use has been looking like. If they've used 2 HBs in the last two rounds then the effects won't be as bad as if they used 3. Generally speaking, you should aim for "detrimental, but not strategically inviable".

Think of it like you're playing some Ultimate Frisbee. Short Term is the feeling you get after you sprinted across the field so you can lay out in the end zone. Mid Term is the feeling you get after you've played hard for three straight points and so it's time to rotate out for a point then come back in later. Long Term is the fatigue you feel after the game is finished as an accumulation of all the energy you exerted over the course of the game.
Well ok. This is a solid start. I think a lot of people would agree that it is the ideal model of the current status quo.

We now need to move to considering how we can actually implement it in practice. It is probably a fair statement to say that a lot of refs fail to keep track of at least two of these factors in any given round. Certainly I don't know of any refs that actually do keep track of all three (and remember to have it impact on the match) for more than two or three rounds in a row.

We also need to consider how type energy fits in to this. It is fair to say that a lot of refs are intimidated by Reed styles of energy even though it is also fair to say that most vets acknowledge it is a much better way of running ASB than just having a set total of type energy and having it run down.

So. How do we get the energy system to work out in such a way that ASB is fun and enjoyable for everyone? We need to set down the foundations in writing and then we need to make refs and battlers take it seriously. If six months from now everyone is still spamming 2x Flamethrower every round then we will have failed.

I personally feel that if you substitute "you must take a one-move round" for "you must take a one-move round OR use two low powered moves" then you basically render the whole thing meaningless because you remove the need for battlers to pace themselves or think about energy conservation. I think some people would prefer that we keep the two low powered moves thing because they think it makes ASB more dynamic and exciting.

Last edited by Mercutio; 06-05-2016 at 06:44 AM.
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Old 06-05-2016, 07:16 AM   #50
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Reed's intimidating because iirc it's not actually explained anywhere that's remotely visible these days.

Otherwise, I agree with what kush/stealthy said.

As for the question kush posed, perhaps reiterate that diminishing returns on attacks are a thing? Or perhaps make it tie into enthusiasm: If you order the same shit repeatedly, the Pokemon will likely get bored and be less enthusiastic etc. Although that crops up the issue of enthusiasm.
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