UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > Independent Forums > PASBL > Suggestions and Inquiries

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-02-2016, 08:26 PM   #1
Jerichi
本✚能
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,496
Wooper Exhaustion

...and eventually is now!

Alright, exhaustion has become a problem. I'm happy that people are enforcing one-move rounds and whatnot but it's gotten to the point where you basically cannot use high-power moves without totally screwing yourself.

Let's start by reading what the site says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Site
Exhaustion - Although Pokémon are generally trained fighters, they are not fighting machines, and require rests in order to fight efficiently and effectively. Every 3 or so rounds, perhaps longer if their rounds were relatively light, a Pokémon should have at least one round in which it uses either one move or two lower energy moves. Using a high-energy move as a one-mover will also somewhat mitigate their exhaustion, but not to same effect as other moves of lower energy. A Pokémon who is exhausted will have slower reaction times, move and use moves more slowly, and, if they go a number of rounds without a rest, will burn energy at an increased rate and eventually cause their moves to lose power. Using multiple high energy moves in a row can also cause exhaustion and can cause the moves to cost more energy and lose power faster than normal.
The intent: make your Pokémon be forced to take a break here and there in order to keep you from reeling off 4 Thunders in a row without drawback. (Notice that nowhere it says "using a move over X energy will cause exhaustion".)

The practice: people are making it so if you use a high energy move at all, you're immediately exhausted and suffer hugely as a consequence, and not stopping and dropping a full move will not mitigate your exhaustion at all.

This is partly my fault, as many common, high-power moves have had exhaustion written into them. The rule around exhaustion isn't also worded too clearly. But there are still some really bad habits that have been propagated. Let's take a closer look at the rule as written to clarify some points.

Quote:
Every 3 or so rounds, perhaps longer if their rounds were relatively light, a Pokémon should have at least one round in which it uses either one move or two lower energy moves.
This is the thing that really gets my goat more than anything else. I know that we have talked for ages about one-move rounds and how important they are, but - let's be honest - it's pretty rarely advantageous to just stop using moves in the middle of a match up. If you can find a good gap or can convince your opponent to have a mutual one-mover, great! But I wrote this into the rule because, strategically, it sucks to be forced to use one move.

I have seen this been more or less ignored, but it's really part of what will keep exhaustion from being crippling. Admittedly it's vague, but I think a good rule of thumb is if you're using a total of major (if it's still earlyish) to significant (if it's later) energy in a round, you should be given a break.

Quote:
Using a high-energy move as a one-mover will also somewhat mitigate their exhaustion, but not to same effect as other moves of lower energy.
So I will admit this is a pretty poorly worded part and while well-intentioned, probably does more harm than good. My original goal here was to make it so you can't just throw out a nuke as a one-mover and expect to be totally refreshed as a consequence. But now that I've experienced people playing with this rule, I think I'm going to go back on it. However, we still should have it so you can't get away totally scott-free with a Hyper Beam as a one mover. Please suggest better wording.

Quote:
A Pokémon who is exhausted will have slower reaction times, move and use moves more slowly, and, if they go a number of rounds without a rest, will burn energy at an increased rate and eventually cause their moves to lose power.
This part is probably taken a little too literally. I've notice refs basically cripple 'mon as a consequence of exhaustion and I think we really need to start viewing the drawbacks as a drop in Speed instead of making them basically unable to function as Pokémon. I also think this is probably set up poorly - we really should probably make Pokémon burn more energy sooner and make them slow later. Please discuss this point.

Now, some miscellany:

-If both Pokémon take a one-mover, they should both be refreshed. None of this "the round ends early, they're not refreshed" stuff. That is bad for balance.

-I will be writing exhaustion out of moves that are not Hyper Beam level.

-We really need to have a talk about Roost - it is kind of a bad thing to have a move that both restores health and puts you in an advantageous place energy-wise. We also probably need to discuss other energy-restoring moves as well but this is less pressing.

-We sort of need to talk about absolute nukes as well, e.g. things like Bide, Counter, Mirror Coat, etc., and how we want to handle those. The current rules don't do too well with them and what's come in their place make them really crippling and not really worth using unless you can score a safe KO.

I might think of other things later but I think this is a good jumping off point.

Discuss.
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2016, 08:38 PM   #2
Fairfax
space monkey mafia
 
Fairfax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: the chamber i built where all the robots scream at you
Posts: 346
Send a message via Skype™ to Fairfax
Quote:
Every 3 or so rounds, perhaps longer if their rounds were relatively light, a Pokémon should have at least one round in which it uses either one move or two lower energy moves. Using a high-energy move as a one-mover will also somewhat mitigate their exhaustion, but not to same effect as other moves of lower energy.
Replace with:

Quote:
Every 3 or so rounds, perhaps longer if their rounds were relatively light, a Pokémon should have at least one round in which it uses no more than a major amount of energy. As matchups continue and Pokémon tire more often, the amount of usable energy for these rounds should approach significant rather than major.
This consolidates some of the points you made above. There might still be a better way to word it, but this gets rid of a lot of now-unnecessary points.
__________________
Fairfax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2016, 08:52 PM   #3
Aposteriori
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,540
-We really need to have a talk about Roost - it is kind of a bad thing to have a move that both restores health and puts you in an advantageous place energy-wise. We also probably need to discuss other energy-restoring moves as well but this is less pressing.

I dont know why you guys made it dual. For the xx version it should be energy, and only flyers should get the perk of health roost if we are keeping it this way. The pseudo wish should be kept only for flyers.

-We sort of need to talk about absolute nukes as well, e.g. things like Bide, Counter, Mirror Coat, etc., and how we want to handle those. The current rules don't do too well with them and what's come in their place make them really crippling and not really worth using unless you can score a safe KO.

I still dont like how much bide can nuke, could we cap the damage somehow?

-If both Pokémon take a one-mover, they should both be refreshed. None of this "the round ends early, they're not refreshed" stuff. That is bad for balance.

Can this concept of one mover also apply for rounds where KOs have occured?
Aposteriori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2016, 08:57 PM   #4
Jerichi
本✚能
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,496
I'd like to be clear: this is not Move Rewrites. We are not discussing rewriting moves for reasons unrelated to exhaustion. The thread will open next week and that can be discussed in the appropriate place.
__________________


気紛れを 許して 今更なんて思わずに急かしてよ
もっと中迄入って あたしの衝動を 突き動かしてよ

asbwffb

[jerichi]
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2016, 09:03 PM   #5
Zelphon
Happy October
 
Zelphon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: A Broken Mind
Posts: 2,146
Send a message via Skype™ to Zelphon
Clearly you turn exhaustion into a regenerative resource that works off the HB system. Perhaps have moves above or bellow certain energy cost thresholds cost more and perhaps restore pep respectively.

Moves can be used fine regardless of cost until you reach 0 pep but if you reach 0 you get seriously boned.
__________________
Life, but a series of paths and flows
Down many one can go
May yours run smoothly and be soft to your feet

Zelphon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 07:07 AM   #6
Aposteriori
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aposteriori View Post
-If both Pokémon take a one-mover, they should both be refreshed. None of this "the round ends early, they're not refreshed" stuff. That is bad for balance.

Can this concept of one mover also apply for rounds where KOs have occured?
Aposteriori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 08:08 AM   #7
Ironthunder
The Uncultured One
 
Ironthunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Getting train rekt
Posts: 2,216
Send a message via Skype™ to Ironthunder
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aposteriori
-We really need to have a talk about Roost - it is kind of a bad thing to have a move that both restores health and puts you in an advantageous place energy-wise. We also probably need to discuss other energy-restoring moves as well but this is less pressing.

I dont know why you guys made it dual. For the xx version it should be energy, and only flyers should get the perk of health roost if we are keeping it this way. The pseudo wish should be kept only for flyers.
Roost hasn't been used in the anime (Or at least not where a google search can reveal), and so we're using the ingame version, which restores health, as a basis it would seem. It works well enough the way round that it is. Just write out the bit where it says 'This refreshes the user' and it's all gravy.

Although, basically everything that gets it is Flying typed, barring Dunsparce, Venomoth, Beedrill, Dustox, Volbeat, Illumise, Vibrava, Flygon, Hydreigon and Volcarona, plus Mew, the Latis, Reshy, Zekkers and Kyurem. 10 non-legend Pokemon have access to only non-flying Roost, legends boost it to 16, and of the ten mainly-accessible ones, most could probably use the healing to keep them semi-viable over other Bugs. Which version becomes STAB really doesn't matter much.

Quote:
-We sort of need to talk about absolute nukes as well, e.g. things like Bide, Counter, Mirror Coat, etc., and how we want to handle those. The current rules don't do too well with them and what's come in their place make them really crippling and not really worth using unless you can score a safe KO.

I still dont like how much bide can nuke, could we cap the damage somehow?
This should be explicitly stated, but I seem to recall people saying that there's an unofficial cap on Bide damage, like anything significantly over 1HB is not going to be as efficient. Like, I recall someone who was a good ref saying that reflecting nukes like Bide and Mirror Coat, plus Last Resort, should not be dealing significantly more than 2HB of damage without using significantly more energy.

Quote:
-If both Pokémon take a one-mover, they should both be refreshed. None of this "the round ends early, they're not refreshed" stuff. That is bad for balance.

Can this concept of one mover also apply for rounds where KOs have occurred?
I'm pretty sure it already does.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Squad summary here.
TL3, 129.5 TP, 37 KOs, 3 SP
C grade ref.

WF quest log here.

FB stuff here.
Ironthunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 08:13 AM   #8
Aposteriori
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironthunder View Post


I'm pretty sure it already does.
No. Connor moved away from single rounds where both use a one mover, but has kept that stipulation for rounds that end in a KO.
Aposteriori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 08:14 AM   #9
Ironthunder
The Uncultured One
 
Ironthunder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Getting train rekt
Posts: 2,216
Send a message via Skype™ to Ironthunder
I have never seen a one-mover which KOd that has not counted as a breather.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Squad summary here.
TL3, 129.5 TP, 37 KOs, 3 SP
C grade ref.

WF quest log here.

FB stuff here.
Ironthunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 08:23 AM   #10
Aposteriori
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironthunder View Post
I have never seen a one-mover which KOd that has not counted as a breather.
Okay, you are right. You have never seen it. Feast your eyes. Connor was never wrong per say to start this trend because it has logical sense, but I held true to my opinion that it was a bit too logical and it punished the trainer that was being energy conservative while rewarded the one that was being reckless.
Aposteriori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 09:42 AM   #11
Connor
Who Knows?
 
Connor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,984
No because in so many instances the trainer who gets the KO has gone pedal to the metal and just forced energy out to make sure they could use that one mover on the KO round. Frankly for balance purposes it makes much more sense for it not to count because then you are actually rewarding clever, conservative play - they get to nuke the next switch in with a two mover of no doubt super effective damage while going second for the second round in a row. If anything I'd say make it commonplace and actually standardised that this is the way it works.
Connor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 11:32 AM   #12
Snorby
Lacking in Beef
 
Snorby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Preparing the Mustard of your Doom
Posts: 2,700
Yeah, agreement with Connor here. 1 movers that cause a KO shouldn't count. Makes it way too easy to absolutely neuter your opponent with a three in the round before, then get almost no repercussions for it because you kill a sitting duck during your breather and are good to go for the next mon. It's problematic in the exact same way Switch = OK can be- I think everyone agrees we shouldn't be rewarding the battler who turrets typespam all day long, but more than a few things we end up doing do so anyway.
__________________

Click on Fawful for my ASB squad summary. Other links coming soon.
Snorby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 12:21 PM   #13
Altocharizard55
The Scientist
 
Altocharizard55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Republican Capitol of America
Posts: 1,199
I think that should be up to ref's discretion to an extent, although I disagree with Connor's discretion in the match that was linked. Regardless of if it caused a KO or not, a one-mover is still a one-mover.
__________________


PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
Altocharizard55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 01:08 PM   #14
Sneaze
#SWAG
 
Sneaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sigs Hell
Posts: 5,654
Send a message via Skype™ to Sneaze
No Connor is pretty much correct on this. As opposed to a normal battle round where things continue at pace even with both 'mon taking a rest, it makes very little sense to assume that the opposing trainer would just sit there and wait to switch.

That said, I've always treated the round immediately following a KO as being a little less rough on exhaustion, as the switch does take a moment and allow for a tiny brek. Obvious exception being people ordering to try and hit a 'mon the moment it comes out.
__________________
Wild Future - FizzBy
PASBL - Ghost Grass Gym Leader - Dragon Elite Four


Daisy wins at life for making this Battle Cut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
Whatever Sneasel says is right
Sneaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 01:09 PM   #15
Zelphon
Happy October
 
Zelphon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: A Broken Mind
Posts: 2,146
Send a message via Skype™ to Zelphon
Rounds that end due to a KO end early tho. Not as much time to rest.
__________________
Life, but a series of paths and flows
Down many one can go
May yours run smoothly and be soft to your feet

Zelphon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 01:14 PM   #16
Altocharizard55
The Scientist
 
Altocharizard55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Republican Capitol of America
Posts: 1,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaze View Post
No Connor is pretty much correct on this. As opposed to a normal battle round where things continue at pace even with both 'mon taking a rest, it makes very little sense to assume that the opposing trainer would just sit there and wait to switch.

That said, I've always treated the round immediately following a KO as being a little less rough on exhaustion, as the switch does take a moment and allow for a tiny brek. Obvious exception being people ordering to try and hit a 'mon the moment it comes out.
Hence why I left it to discretion. It's highly dependent on circumstance; I don't think there's an easy answer in either direction. I think I may just lean a little more leniently than Connor does in that particular instance. I'm not saying his reffing is entirely wrong or whatnot, I simply would have treated it a bit differently. It's not like exhaustion is in the black and white state of exhausted and not exhausted, like it is often reffed. Always in shades of grey.
__________________


PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
Altocharizard55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 01:18 PM   #17
Zelphon
Happy October
 
Zelphon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: A Broken Mind
Posts: 2,146
Send a message via Skype™ to Zelphon
I take it my spitballed idea for system isn't of interest?
__________________
Life, but a series of paths and flows
Down many one can go
May yours run smoothly and be soft to your feet

Zelphon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 01:27 PM   #18
Altocharizard55
The Scientist
 
Altocharizard55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Republican Capitol of America
Posts: 1,199
Generally, if you expend yourself more in the rounds prior, it will be more difficult to quench exhaustion.

And in the one-round-KO move case, you will generally get less of a breather than you may otherwise, depending on attacks used. Depending on energy use prior, that may alleviate a lot or possibly not as much of your exhaustion

It depends how exhausted you are.

To what extent all of this works is ref's discretion
__________________


PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
Altocharizard55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 06:06 PM   #19
Mercutio
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,729
It seems to me that the exact opposite of what Jeri thinks is true is the case in practice (tldr Jeri is completely wrong). Am I out of touch? Or do we need to make sure we're clear on what the problem may be?
Mercutio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 06:07 PM   #20
Aposteriori
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 3,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
It seems to me that the exact opposite of what Jeri thinks is true is the case. Am I out of touch? Or do we need to make sure we're clear on what the problem may be?
It is opposite to what Jeri is saying. One mover, under all the context described for a one mover, should be a one mover imo.
Aposteriori is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 06:11 PM   #21
Mercutio
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,729
No I'm saying that in my experience literally the whole of Jeri's OP os completely wrong. All of it.

Am I missing something or are we unclear on what the objective is?
Mercutio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 06:18 PM   #22
Altocharizard55
The Scientist
 
Altocharizard55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The Republican Capitol of America
Posts: 1,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
No I'm saying that in my experience literally the whole of Jeri's OP os completely wrong. All of it.

Am I missing something or are we unclear on what the objective is?
What about his post is wrong? Could you go into a bit more detail?
__________________


PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
Altocharizard55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2016, 07:34 PM   #23
Slash
Poison Jam
 
Slash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Tokyo Underground Sewage Facility
Posts: 6,019
Send a message via Yahoo to Slash Send a message via Skype™ to Slash
Kush thinks exhaustion should be even more crippling and absurdly quick to set in and makes a Pokemon 100% useless for awhile

EDIT: Oh, yeah, also, on the one-mover-that-KOs thing, yeah, that cuts the round shorter, so it's not a breather despite being one move.
Slash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 01:20 AM   #24
Mercutio
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 14,729
I'm talking about diagnosis, not prognosis, Slash.
Mercutio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2016, 05:51 AM   #25
Fairfax
space monkey mafia
 
Fairfax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: the chamber i built where all the robots scream at you
Posts: 346
Send a message via Skype™ to Fairfax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
No I'm saying that in my experience literally the whole of Jeri's OP os completely wrong. All of it.

Am I missing something or are we unclear on what the objective is?
If you're missing something, that's your own fault.

If we're unclear on what the objective is, enlighten us.
__________________
Fairfax is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > Independent Forums > PASBL > Suggestions and Inquiries


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:33 PM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.