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Old 05-11-2016, 12:35 PM   #51
Aposteriori
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Also, main issue with your idea Apos: The time needed. People who get sigs out of the way early are going to get fucked if they fight anyone who still retains their broken sigs because they're being reviewed later. I mean, we could just say NO SIGS CAN BE USED UNTIL THEY'RE ALL CHECKED but that's a bit awful.
No, it is not that bad. Few sigs are broken and are easy to work around. Ask your opponent nicely "This sig does not fit the current guidleline, please replace that pokemon with one that does." If you don't feel comfortable, just do the match under no sigs. This period should last no more than the period it took to re-approve everywhere.
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:44 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aposteriori View Post
No, it is not that bad. Few sigs are broken and are easy to work around. Ask your opponent nicely "This sig does not fit the current guidleline, please replace that pokemon with one that does." If you don't feel comfortable, just do the match under no sigs. This period should last no more than the period it took to re-approve everywhere.
No, because that's basically banning chunks of your opponent's team and that's not how ASB works. You as a battler should have absolutely no say on what the opponent can and can't bring. Legends do get a warning given, but that's just courtesy on the legend user's behalf, they don't/shouldn't really need to.
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:45 PM   #53
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Or, instead, people just put up their sigs whenever the fuck and approvers go through them at a regular but not necessarily set pace. Forcing people onto schedules for things like this is a terrible idea and bound to inhibit the creative process of sigs, and I for one would rather read over things in batches during free time than deal with the idea that any one member of the League should have their sugs looked at sooner than another because of a shitty schedule.
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:51 PM   #54
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Simple: no sigs are to be dropped until all sigs have been reviewed at which point those deemed unfit under new rules are dropped by the league as a whole
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:54 PM   #55
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This conversation makes me want to petition for sigs as a concept to be banned and never allowed in ASB again. It's pointless bickering at this point, so I'm backing the hell out before people yell at me even more.
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:00 PM   #56
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I like Apost's idea but really it's just my own phrased differently so that goes without saying.

@Sneaze, that's why people would have the option of when to sign up. Tho is gonna be a long process and if you can't be available a couple times in a week o your choosing over the next months then that's on you. Moreover, people wouldn't HAVE to sign up at all- they'd just get no help fixing their sigs from approvers and have their sigs retrojected rather than revised.

I see virtually no downsides to this pls as long as we have dedicated people reviewing. It's easily the most user-friendly method- it balances accessibility and simplicity with fairness rather well without being unnecessarily drastic. Apologies for typos on mobile
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:07 PM   #57
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Ugh, see, I GET all the arguments for a sig reset, but I just don't like it on principle. I feel like, yeah, the other ways to appraoch this are less efficient, but a complete reset is just- god.
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:25 PM   #58
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I did like the idea that we got a limit on sigs per month but also keeping it that way permanently. Say maybe 13? That way newbies can get sigs for their whole squad at least looked at, the sig LOs can avoid being overworked and those of us with larger squads at least have 2 battle squads of 6 to work with after the potential sig wipe
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:46 PM   #59
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Just throwing it out there that saying nobody can admit their own Sigs are broken is a falsehood. It is why I got rid of all mine as a mass dump. I knew the majority of them were bloody obscene.

Still strongly in support of a full wipe but I can see the issues with it. Bluntly though, someone answer me this since I think it is a reasonable issue - if we are to say that we go through with a review of old Sigs, is this going to by default consume the majority of the allocated Sigs workers time? I'm all for easing their workload but putting a blatant stop to new Sigs or even slowing the system by comparison is a major kick in the bollocks to someone like me who is just looking to avoid the bullshit of everything, especially considering I'd be limiting myself to 15 submitted Sigs at any one time (which I feel is a good hard cap by the way). I have 150ish Pokemon and if I can bear to limit what I am submitting the rest of you probably can if we're honest.
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:34 PM   #60
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I know how we could fix the problems discussed.

Delete the thread and pretend this stifling of creativity and fun never existed :x
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:45 PM   #61
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Just throwing it out there that saying nobody can admit their own Sigs are broken is a falsehood. It is why I got rid of all mine as a mass dump. I knew the majority of them were bloody obscene.

Still strongly in support of a full wipe but I can see the issues with it. Bluntly though, someone answer me this since I think it is a reasonable issue - if we are to say that we go through with a review of old Sigs, is this going to by default consume the majority of the allocated Sigs workers time? I'm all for easing their workload but putting a blatant stop to new Sigs or even slowing the system by comparison is a major kick in the bollocks to someone like me who is just looking to avoid the bullshit of everything, especially considering I'd be limiting myself to 15 submitted Sigs at any one time (which I feel is a good hard cap by the way). I have 150ish Pokemon and if I can bear to limit what I am submitting the rest of you probably can if we're honest.
So this process should take 2 months at max efficiency, and 4 months at ASBlackofefficiency. As the ones that are getting reviewed are being looked at, the regular sig thread should go live June 5th, and the first general set of regular approvals should roll in July 3rd.
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:15 PM   #62
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Now that I'm actually looking at some of the trainers with higher numbers, they wont need to have all of their pokemon reviewed because they were never sigged to be begin with so they can be shunted into the regular thread.

Sneaze for example, would only need to do the special sit down for 43/59 sigs. All others are sigless. This is not meant to be a special one on one service to get everything sigged, rather to get all the old sigs in lined with the new ones so it was a bit confusing when you said it would shunt the creative process. If your old sig is not salvageable, then it gets rejected and you pile that one to the regular sig thread.
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Old 05-11-2016, 04:31 PM   #63
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I just think doing a "special sit down" is a bad idea because this is ASB and schedules generally end up not being followed and leaving everyone salty. If we just have an approval thread, whether it be a mandatory "post your sigs for review thread" or a "sigs were all wiped and you have to resub everything thread," they would be approved the same way sigs currently are. Realistically, it should take the same amount of time if we put multiple people on the job and is just so much simpler from a logistical standpoint.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:20 PM   #64
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So, this will undoubtedly be a relatively long post, and it may echo things that have already been said, but I feel that the most effective option would be to wipe all sigs by an effective deadline indiscriminately. The reason for this is dual. An immediate wipe leaves literally no room for error; there is no chance that unapproved sigs could pass under the radar, or for inability to meet deadlines for individual review. Additionally, I feel it would actually be much more streamlined for sig approvers to sift through resubmits all at once rather than through a steady influx of sigs over a large period of time. It's best to get everything out of the way on the submitter's part. It's going to take around the same amount of time for the sigs to get approved anyways, but dragging out the nixing process over a long period of time will end up with people not having sigs for a longer period of time than otherwise. It is also a lot more complicated to coordinate.

To compensate/make things fair for all players, I suggest that immediately after this wipe, for an X month period, sigs will be disallowed entirely in ASB until a large portion of the initial backlog is cleared. This keeps the playing field fair for people further down the queue timewise, and gives the LO's a reasonable timeframe to work with and to resolve any debates about the codification itself.

I also propose that this time period be used to train a few more sig approvers; there's no better time to do this than when the new rules are being implemented. This is due to the fact that under my suggestion, approved sigs would not be immediately usable, allowing time for another approver/member/whatever to check what has been approved by a trainee. Practical, on the job training. This is, of course, an optimal case. I haven't been here in a while, so I have no idea if there's anyone Jeri would even be comfortable with training for sig approval. Additionally, it should be an easier job given a now less flexible set of approval guidelines (I'll make another post about those at a later date, when it becomes a more important discussion.) If this is a reasonable feat to accomplish, certainly the sigless time would go by much more smoothly.

Anyways, these are just my two cents on the matter. Which may not be worth a whole lot, considering my inactivity and rust.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:22 PM   #65
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Just throwing it out there that saying nobody can admit their own Sigs are broken is a falsehood. It is why I got rid of all mine as a mass dump. I knew the majority of them were bloody obscene.

Still strongly in support of a full wipe but I can see the issues with it. Bluntly though, someone answer me this since I think it is a reasonable issue - if we are to say that we go through with a review of old Sigs, is this going to by default consume the majority of the allocated Sigs workers time? I'm all for easing their workload but putting a blatant stop to new Sigs or even slowing the system by comparison is a major kick in the bollocks to someone like me who is just looking to avoid the bullshit of everything, especially considering I'd be limiting myself to 15 submitted Sigs at any one time (which I feel is a good hard cap by the way). I have 150ish Pokemon and if I can bear to limit what I am submitting the rest of you probably can if we're honest.
That's entirely dependent on who we have Reviewing. If we have 3 of Jeri, who can only do any ASB stuff at all a couple days a week? New Sigs will be delayed noticeably. If we have 3 of you, with assloads of free time, there'll be virtually no difference. Odds are it will be somewhere in the middle.

If we want to put a focus on getting new sigs approved, we can just say the reviewer with the lightest load that week should do some new approvals to even things out. Fairly simple fix I'd think, especially if we put down a hard cap on how many sigs people can post at a time (which I'd be in favor of).

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I just think doing a "special sit down" is a bad idea because this is ASB and schedules generally end up not being followed and leaving everyone salty. If we just have an approval thread, whether it be a mandatory "post your sigs for review thread" or a "sigs were all wiped and you have to resub everything thread," they would be approved the same way sigs currently are. Realistically, it should take the same amount of time if we put multiple people on the job and is just so much simpler from a logistical standpoint.
See, I through and through abhor this if we're doing a true review. One of the best advantages the review process would have is the fact that it allows for a real dialogue to be had between submitter and approver, which has been absent from the Sig process since I started writing them in 2011. A change this drastic needs real collaboration on everyone's part for the smoothest possible transition- it's hardly going to make things better to burn all the sigs, put down new guidelines, and change nothing else.

As for the whole "B'awwwww schedules" argument, if we can get ridiculous numbers of people to order ONCE A DAY for a Grand Melee, we can get people to pick ONE WEEK within the next few months that they're available. This is the exact reason the schedule everyone's so afraid of is so damn flexible. Free basically anytime? Awesome, you make everyone's lives easier. Free any time but week X and Days Y and Z? That's cool, no skin off our backs. Free ONLY THIS ONE WEEK EVER? That's okay, we've got you covered. It doesn't matter when you're free because you like to flip the system the bird and be uncooperative? That's fine, but don't come crying to us when you end up with half your squad unsigged.

Complaining about the presence of a schedule is downright silly when the people who have to stick to it are having it hand-tailored to their preferences.

If we kick things into gear with this quickly enough, we could realistically allow people to pick an choose appointment weeks between May 29th and July 30th. That leaves anywhere between 54 and 108 openings, or between 6 and 12 each week, for you to pick from. Far fewer people have sigs to be reviewed than their would be openings even if we only had 2 approvers and they took 3 people a week. We'd likely be done sometime in July or maybe even late June.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:33 PM   #66
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Ideally yes, that'd be nice. But in my ASB experience, that type of scheduling just ends up not working out. The only GM I've been a part of flopped because people couldn't keep that schedule. I simply have not personally witnessed anything that indicates that would function as neatly as some of the other plans put forth.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:35 PM   #67
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To be perfectly blunt the one GM you saw flopped because the host bit off more than he could chew. That had nothing to do with people not ordering.

As long as we don't slog all of this onto one person there should be absolutely no trouble.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:41 PM   #68
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The appointment plan will undoubtedly fail. It is far more likely for approvers to have a few large chunks of time rather than a bunch of small ones. What you're suggesting requires a ridiculous amount of coordination to pull off, and would effectively accomplish nothing that a full wipe would not, unless I am missing something. Also, it doesn't offer the chance to train new approvers, which to me is something that could be gained from a wipe.

What would the appointment plan give the ASB that the wipe would not?
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:44 PM   #69
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Also the dialogue between signature submitters and signature approvers could be fixed just as easily by a change in the attitudes of the people approving signatures. A willingness to answer questions and explain what's wrong with a sig. Which would be required anyway for them to do review appointments anyway. At least, that's the way I see it.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:50 PM   #70
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There also needs to be a Misc category for people who make sigs unlike anything listed.

Additionally, Sig submissions should include a tag indicating which type of sig they are submitting. This would streamline approval.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:54 PM   #71
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Anything not on this list should likely be a case by case basis. Off the top of my head, I don't think my current snover sig fits any of these categories. It has the ability to use it's snow/wind moves to weaken/extinguish fire attacks at the cost of more energy. But when you get into the really out there stuff (Kush's Ditto made out of legos or Zelphy's giant slugma, for example) there's really no one way to codify it that I can think of.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:56 PM   #72
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UPN just ate my post so this will be brief(er).

Basically:

As I've said multiple times, it creates an actual dialogue between approver and submitter that's desperately needed. With a full purge, we'll just start doing everything the same way again except with some rough guidelines to look at that each new Sig LO will undoubtedly tweak, and then in a while we'll be right back here again. There needs to be actual cooperation in this process. Why would it be a good idea to purge all the sigs when people have been talking about how the powers that be in ASB are uncompromising and unreasonable? That will just reinforce the narrative, not help to disprove it.

And I think you severely overestimate the difficulty this would require. There would be between 2 and 4 approvers working on this. Yes, they would need to be active. Yes, they would have to give a shit. But frankly that's what LOs should be in the first place, and saying that the current mediocre standard most of our LOs have set can't handle the upkeep isn't a good argument. The fact that we need more and better people for bigger tasks is exactly why Jeri's going to start looking into some people to help with this, i'd imagine.

I'd also like to reiterate that it takes absolutely minimal effort on the part of the submitter. In fact, it takes less than a clean wipe would. If someone signs up for a time and blows it off, that's on them, and their sigs will be looked at with no chance for revision, only retrojection.

As an aside, it would be massively appreciated if anyone could actually back it up when they say "It won't work", "it's too hard", "It will undoubtedly fail". Beating down a proposal without any given explanation or reason contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion. If you want to say, "This is a terrible idea and will crash and burn beyond a shadow of a doubt", go for it, but don't leave it at that. That's even less useful than the idea you criticize. Add some reasoning behind it.
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:57 PM   #73
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Example: Steelix sig that allows for using ground type moves to a normal effect through very difficult terrain. (I believe FW has something like this)
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:16 PM   #74
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The appointment plan will undoubtedly fail. It is far more likely for approvers to have a few large chunks of time rather than a bunch of small ones. What you're suggesting requires a ridiculous amount of coordination to pull off, and would effectively accomplish nothing that a full wipe would not, unless I am missing something. Also, it doesn't offer the chance to train new approvers, which to me is something that could be gained from a wipe.

What would the appointment plan give the ASB that the wipe would not?
As Snorby said, it gives the sigwriters a say in how to edit sigs that they're fond of or hold on to sigs that they've had for a while that don't actually violate any of the rules. Also, to that end, people may try to resub sigs that they liked and without that communication, it's may just get rejected, and the more that sig approvers have to reject something, wouldn't that result in more work? I think that the training of new approvers could just as easily occur during the appointment plan, and working with the sig approvals as we transition to better rules does a number of other things as well:

1. It allows there to be conversation between the approvers and the approvees, and we can accomplish what Slash wanted in terms of LOs figuring out what is actually relevant as rules or regulations in sigs in today's ASB competitive scene.
2. It gets people who are writing sigs to realize what works and doesn't and overall strengthens the community's sense of balance better than a flurry of rejections could ever do.
3. This is a bit of an investment in the future of sig approvals as people knowing what will be couture and what will not be leads to higher approval rates, and higher approval rates ultimately leads to less work.
4. IT'S NOT A RESET. To me, a reset button just feels- it just feels wrong. Yeah, we can go with "submit sigs for review by this date or it's auto-wiped," and that's fine. That deals with a lot of the issues detailed, actually. But because some sigs have waited for so long and some people have worked so hard on them, it seems unfair to me to just out-of-hand say "okay, we're starting over completely." IDK

I kind of agree that it's going to be hard to enforce a schedule, and I don't know that I agree with all the logistics of Snorby's plan, but I can't really condone a total reset either. Maybe we should have a period of "no sigs." Maybe there are completely broken sigs out there. But I don't like the idea of wiping out hard work along with bad work just for immediate convenience.
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:23 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snorby View Post
UPN just ate my post so this will be brief(er).

Basically:

As I've said multiple times, it creates an actual dialogue between approver and submitter that's desperately needed. With a full purge, we'll just start doing everything the same way again except with some rough guidelines to look at that each new Sig LO will undoubtedly tweak, and then in a while we'll be right back here again. There needs to be actual cooperation in this process. Why would it be a good idea to purge all the sigs when people have been talking about how the powers that be in ASB are uncompromising and unreasonable? That will just reinforce the narrative, not help to disprove it.

And I think you severely overestimate the difficulty this would require. There would be between 2 and 4 approvers working on this. Yes, they would need to be active. Yes, they would have to give a shit. But frankly that's what LOs should be in the first place, and saying that the current mediocre standard most of our LOs have set can't handle the upkeep isn't a good argument. The fact that we need more and better people for bigger tasks is exactly why Jeri's going to start looking into some people to help with this, i'd imagine.

I'd also like to reiterate that it takes absolutely minimal effort on the part of the submitter. In fact, it takes less than a clean wipe would. If someone signs up for a time and blows it off, that's on them, and their sigs will be looked at with no chance for revision, only retrojection.

As an aside, it would be massively appreciated if anyone could actually back it up when they say "It won't work", "it's too hard", "It will undoubtedly fail". Beating down a proposal without any given explanation or reason contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion.
To begin, I wholly agree with the idea that there should be communication on sig approvals, but Sig discussion should be happening all of the time anyways. Reinstating the "Why was my sig rejected" thread allows for plenty of discussion over the X month waiting period between approvers and submitters, so long as its used.

Now, I will make my discussion on why "it will fail" more explicit. How many sig approvers, currently, are active in approving? How many will have time to do 3-4 sessions a week for a few months? How much time will be needed to train new approvers to conduct these sessions? What happens when life schedules will create conflicts with PASBL schedules? It's a very complicated plan, not due to the fact that it -is- a schedule, but rather a very demanding one. It's probable that people will run late to meetings, run out of time early, etc etc; the whole thing is a bookkeeping nightmare.

Additionally, you are underestimating the amount of time that these meetings would end up taking. Not only would the sig approver have to mull over each submission, but would then have to spend even longer discussing with the submitter why each sig is to be rejected. This is not conducive to a speedy reform, especially compounded with the inevitable scheduling difficulties. The time/streamline advantage, I feel, is clearly on the wipe side.

Other than the discussion factor, does your plan have any further benefits?
__________________


PASBL Stats

TL 4 (35-21-6)
Current owner of the Onslaught Badge and the Monolith Badge
Previous owner of the Indurate Badge and the Dual Wing Badge (Pre-scrap)
216 TP - 84 KOs - 20 SP (11 SP Debt to Machamp-X)
(W/L/D and stats recompiled as of 4/25/17)
Observe. Adapt. Evolve.
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