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Old 05-10-2016, 09:58 PM   #26
Beautiful Savage
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So a bunch of people on skype agreed that "We could alternatively say "any sigs not reviewed after X date will we wiped"" was a good idea.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:08 PM   #27
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I concur with the idea of all sigs before this most recent pass by Jeri should be wiped so that we can start fresh.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:10 PM   #28
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I stand behind a full wipe (maybe because almost half my pokemon are new and sigless). But if we do it like that i think we should limit the amount of sigs one can submit a month. Atleast for a few months so we dont burn miror and jeri to death.

The other option is sigs not reviewed by a certain date will automatically be wiped and i feel like this is also a strong option as it helps to deal with people who randomly come back from the dead.

I think i would be decent at identifying if a sig fits in to the new guidelines and i normally have a fair amount of time so i would be happy to help trawl through peoples squads and identify sigs in need of review. I think if we had a team of people doing this and then get them to send the sigs they think need to be reviewed to Jeri and the other LOs who can then send a finalised list to the trainer. Run it so that everyone's squad gets looked over by three different people, that way you make sure that one person doesnt miss something. This i think would be pretty efficient and could easily be done by a group of active members who have a good general grasp of asb mechanics. People that come to mind that arnt LOs are. Sneaze, Connor, Kush, Apost, Snorby, Slash, Kamen, MtG and Myself. I probably forgot some people but thats three teams of three, that would easily spread the workload and make sure no one has all the weight sitting on their shoulders.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:24 PM   #29
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First of all I'd like to reiterate my disdain for a Full Wipe of sigs. It's basically doing what I suggested except screwing everybody over for several months.

In regards to what TKF has said, I feel like it sort of unnecessarily complicates things. Why have it go through three different people AND the LOs when you could just get a handful of trustworthy people do it and skip all the bullshit with getting people's schedules to align? I can assure you that a combination of Sneaze/Kush/MtG for example would never be able to work at the same time and would in fact take three times as long to do a one person job because they're rarely on at the same time because loltimezones.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:33 PM   #30
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Kairne yet again proves we're braib linked by pretty much saying what I would've said, but better. Though, I feel like I should bring this up since me and Aposteriori had a little exchange about it: Smeargle. It's been pretty commonplace for people to give their Smeargle extra Sketch slots with some special rule as to how those slots are used. For example, the aforementioned Aposteriori's Smeargle has currently 8/twelve at TL7 slots that can be used to Sketch any move from a battle it was a squad member in. I was considering a similar sig for my new Smeargle and wanted to make sure he didn't think I was trying to rip his sig and he brought up the fact that Sig Codification may put some limits on that.

So, simple form: Can we still sig Smeargles to have "specialty" extra Sketch slots? Or would it be that you can do "specialty" Sketches, but only with the slots provided by normal Smeargle rules?

I also stand by full sig wipe. And shunting the entirety of the workload onto Sneazebag.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:33 PM   #31
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I ment they do it separately then through them all together and have a look. Most of the time they would be identifying the same ones it just stops bias and things being missed. You give the people a week to do it, and then send in the results to Jeri & co for finalisation.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:49 PM   #32
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:01 PM   #33
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And shunting the entirety of the workload onto Sneazebag.
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:18 PM   #34
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Sneaze is just the kind of masochist who would bear that burden with minimal (well, for him) complaining.

THANK YOU, SIR! MAY I HAVE ANOTHER SIG POST, SIR?
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:28 PM   #35
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Can a custom move have two effects at once if it doesn't deal damage?
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:47 PM   #36
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oh, right, austo. I feel like we need it to be the powers that be that do it, not civilian independent contractors. TPTB need to personally touch every sig for reasons of fairness and objectivity. Otherwise, we're not really making the movement or the statement we should be.

It's no secret there's been some unrest within the community. There's been decisions and shifts and occurrences from on high, the consequences of which and community reactions to, have led to sparking debate, closing threads, causing some resignations, and other problems. Even with the recurring promise of "we're working on it, it'll be better soon" being repeated over and over, things have become, quite frankly, less transparent and allowing less public criticism about it. This is a problem.

But I think that this sig refresh idea will be a good way to try to help mend things a bit. We need a symbol. This is one of the many reasons why I push for a clean wipe on all sigs. It puts all of us on an equal playing field with sigs, everything is now fresh and new and clean and looked at with new eyes, not as "this has already been passed before", but seen as an entirely new submission. Just a plain review will make us vets have a much greater advantage. Losing a few sigs won't phase most of us because we have them to spare, and vets do end up given a share of leeway and some bias towards them when it comes to things like that. Not saying that is intentionall, but it does tend to pop up sometimes. A full sig wipe that puts newby-newb and El Jefe on the same grounds on sigs shows that kind of unity. Everyone starting from 0 and all sigs looked at as if for the first time, that's the ideal. We should strive to get as close to that as we can, and not implement some kind of system that is more complicated, dances around it, and leaves more room for one percenters to benefit while the lower levels are pushed down. A full wipe shows unity, that we are all the same in the eyes of the "law". And mostly I just think it will be healthy for the community. A review will be adjusting the course a bit. A wipe will be rebuilding a new and better system together. A new day, a new direction, instead of just some slight course correction. The course correction may address a symptom, but a wipe better addresses the real problem.

And, I cannot stress this point enough. I am known as sigs guy. I won best sig/sigmaker twice in a row. I am known/infamous for my love of sigs. They are like children to me. I pour out aa bit of my soul into every sig I craft. I am one of the ones pushing hardest for a full sig wipe.


Was going to edit this into my last post but it took awhile to type out and a new post happened in the interim so new post for you

Oh, and a quick note for the people who dislike or are upset with the full wipe idea because it'll "take away [my/people's/etc] sigs", it really won't. If they're pass worthy, they'll get passed in the round of approvals when that happens, which should be in the same timeframe, if not sooner (due to some people cutting the fat on some of their sigs and straight dropping unviable ones so LO time and frustrations are saved), it won't affect ongoing battles, so only battles in the short timeframe between the wipe happening and the round of approvals being active. And for the battles started in that timeframe, neither player has sigs to access. So it's level. The only sigs you "lose" are the ones that shouldn't be a thing, the others just get checked for maintenance. It's not loss, it's opportunity to re-assess them from the ground level.

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Old 05-11-2016, 12:56 AM   #37
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6) Entry Hazards
Entry hazard can only have a single effect, be it damage, a status, a boost or drop or a similar effect. They must be clearable by conventional hazard clearing moves and be directly targetable and destroyable by moves of good or greater damage.


I don't really like the idea that entry hazards can't do damage and have a boost or status at the same time. Perhaps only up to two effects, and the effects must be weaker, compromised, or conditional?

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11) New Moves
New moves can be created. The simplest new move, a re-type or edit of an existing move, will generally be passable without much issue. However, certain high power moves, such as Hyper Beam, or moves with unique, guaranteed or potent effects, such as Zap Cannon, may be more difficult to pass. Moves must generally use at least as much energy as they deal damage in most cases. However, moves with unique, guaranteed or potent effects may need to be inefficient (for example, moves guaranteed to deal a certain status should be inefficient). New moves may only have one effect beyond damage, be it lowering a stat, inflicting a status, or some other unique effect, without needing higher energy, though having the ability to have multiple effects must increase the energy use. Additionally, the effects must not stack - that is, there can only be one effect triggered by a single use. Moves with multiple effects may only have 3 possible effects. The more likely an effect is to trigger, the more energy inefficient the move should be. Moves with 10%-15% chance to have a secondary effect do not need to be inefficient, but moves with a 20% chance or higher should require more energy. Damaging moves can be two types which you can freely choose from or may use two types simultaneously. New moves may also be of types your Pokémon does not normally have access to or typeless.


Where do non-damaging moves fit?

I don't really like having guidelines around for new moves. They're kinda known for being weird, so IMO trying to control the way they are approved on anything more than a case-by-case basis isn't a good idea. With that said, it's a good guideline that should cover the simple use cases (I want a move that does damage and has an effect, which will help cover my weaknesses, either the pokemon's weaknesses or my own playstyle weaknesses).

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While rough guidelines may be a good things to encourage, rules I feel impede creativity. And rulesets like this pushes sigs from being art to being science, balanced equations, boxes checked. That's not good. That's something I have had issue with in ASB, especially lately: we're losing the art. Everything's all math and exact percentages and formula and decimals and all that. You take the art out of ASB and we may as well be Smogon ASB. And maybe not this change specifically, but this attitude behind this change, this is what's smothering the art.
Strongly disagree. Oftentimes, rules ENCOURAGE creativity. It can be hard to "write about anything," but if you ask a group of people to "write about news stories that you think would be relevant to turtles," you'd probably get a lot of really interesting and creative ideas. I get what you're saying, that codified rules allow people to analyze and compute the best or most efficient kinds of sigs...but these rules already existed. They're just being written down as a guide to sig writing.

Plus, the un-codified system has a bunch of inconsistencies and cheating that obscured the way the rules actually worked and made things aggravating - why can Talon's Parasect get 4 good offensive moves just because he gave up Stun Spore and Spore, when my Parasect can't get 3 average offensive moves when giving up X-Scissor, Mega Drain, and Toxic?

Also, not everyone is as good at mentally balancing sigs as you are. Some of us (COUGH COUGH) have really cool and creative sig ideas but aren't capable of phrasing or balancing them in a way that pleases the LOs. Or the rest of the PASBL, apparently :/ The system of "needs a drawback/doesn't need a drawback" is confusing as fuck and it can be difficult for newcomers to understand what makes a good sig or a not-drawbacky-enough sig or an impermissible sig (rip my necromancer shedinja from 2011 ;-; was literally fine but had a little cosmetic staff for using her sig move).
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:28 AM   #38
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When it comes to a full wipe I feel those which were passed under the most recent batch which presumably fall under new guidelines should remain.

In line with that I will probably willingly drop the majority if not all of my Sigs fairly soon and in the name of not overworking people will not abruptly submit them all again. I am not the dick a few of you probably think I am.

In that line once I am done with University for the summer (see: June 6th or thereabouts) I am more than willing to put my services to helping out with Sigs if the LOs are happy with that. I will have stupid amounts of free time because my plans to travel have fallen through (people are fickle and unreliable) and for the foreseeable future I do not have any new plans.
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Old 05-11-2016, 08:29 AM   #39
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Once I get a review date, I will drop all of my sigs. I want to avoid soonTM. Im on board dropping all sigs and doing a clean resubmission.
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Old 05-11-2016, 09:19 AM   #40
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I can see the benefits of dropping all sigs barring the ones approved in the last submissions (which were under new!rules anyway), but equally the fact is that everyone's going to be resubmitting the sigs before new approvals, so the inevitable thing is that sig thread gets rammed and nobody has enough time in the day/week/month/year to do them, so it just sits there and accumulates more sigs, and so begins the never-ending cycle of doom.

My opinion: Give people a short period in which to check their sigs against new criteria and drop the now-illegal ones, and the clean-slate thing's the stick to ensure people don't abuse this. It's a shit idea, but it's mine so I might as well contribute for once.
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:01 AM   #41
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Also extra eww for limiting extra moves, movepuddles lament.
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Old 05-11-2016, 10:43 AM   #42
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We can do them by batches and by appointment. The sig approver is allowed to postpone it by one week, but the trainer is not allowed to postpone their review week. If the trainer postpones, they are skipped entirely and will have to wait until the regular schedule to submit sigs anew.

Sig approver 1 will work with 3-4 trainers on a set week.
Sig approver 2 will work with 3-4 trainers on a set week.

and so on.

When the sig approver is ready to review the sigs, on that day, the destined trainers for review drop all sigs and have that sig reviewer deal with that group of individuals.

We should divide the trainers by certain threshold of pokemon slot

Idea of a threshold:

15-30 is the first tier
36-50 is the second tier
51-65 is the third tier
66+ is the fourth tier [These are the outliers of the league. Few trainers reach this threshold]

This will help gauge the workload for the sig reviewer, and allow the sig reviewer to not overwork themselves and land with a combination of Dave, Connor, and Slash. Or Sneaze, Gato, and Me. Or whatever mix puts on a heavy load on the sig reviewer.

Connor and Dave should be reviewed at separate times or by separate people but not by the same sig reviewer at once, as an example.

The sig reviewer should probably have a balanced load of
1-2 fist tier - one week review period
1 second tier - one week review period
1 third or fourth tier - two week review period

Once we weed out the ones with fewer sigs, that sig reviewer can tap into the higher tiers to ease the load, and evetually all of it will get done in a 1 month to 3 month time period.

Approximate ASB roster + squad size:

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01. Connor - Steel GL ~ 155
02. DaveTheFishGuy ~ 145
03. Mew The Gato ~ 88
04. Jerichi - Eeveelution GL ~ 73
05. Aposteriori ~ 68

06. Mercutio ~ 61
07. Celebii151 ~ 61
08. Sneasel12 - Grass GL ~ 59
09. Shadowshocker - Poison GL ~ ???
10. Slash ~ 55

11. Snorby ~ 50
12. KamenAeons - Flying GL ~ 48
13. Miror ~ 47
14. Lanturn ~ 46
15. Charminions - Fire GL ~ 46
16. TheKnightsFury ~ 41
17. DarkLucarioADV ~ 41
18. Machamp-X ~ 40
19. Trot Away ~ 40
20. Extroph - Flying GT ~ 37
21. Eliteknight ~ 39

22. rotomotorz ~ 35
23. HeroicRein - Grass GT ~ 34
24. Zelphon ~ 33
25. Son_of_Shadows ~ 32
26. Kusari ~ 31
27. SilentReaper ~ 31
28. Ironthunder ~ 31
29. Crys ~ 29
30. Beautiful Savage ~ 27
31. biggggg5 ~ 25
32. RealMrGame10 - Flying GT ~ 25
33. dirkac ~ 20
34. TalkSick ~ 19
35. Goose ~ 18
36. Prince ~ 18
37. Myles Fowl II ~15



Inactive for ASB but active within the Community
Kindrindra
JustAnotherUser
Concept

Hiatus
Stblk
S_M
Sciz


The league is small at the moment, if we start this review process sunday the 15th, the first batch could be approved by Sunday the 22nd. Let's say we have 2 reviewers. That would mean 16 batches, two batches per from week, from 22nd of May until July 10th. During their week of review, they drop all of their sigs. By July 11th, or when the real date approaches, whoever was not reviewed needs to drop all sigs and once they return it shall be under sigless.

The sig reviewer can get back to the trainer during the week or not, have q/a via PM, whatever form of communication. The sig reviewer can do the approvals in small spurts, but they should be ideally all done by the end of the week.

5 red, 5 orange, 11 yellow, 16 green

Sunday May 22nd

1st batch
01. red (1/5) 1st week
02. yellow (1/10)
03. green (1/16)

2nd batch
04. orange (1/5) 1st week
05. yellow (2/10)
06. green (2/16)

Sunday May 29th

3rd batch
01. red (1/5) 2nd week
07. yellow (3/11)
08. green (3/16)

4th batch
04. orange (1/5) 2nd week
09. yellow (4/11)
10. green (4/16)

Sunday June 5th

5th batch
11. red (2/5) 1st week
12. yellow (5/11)
13. green (5/16)

6th batch
14. orange (2/5) 1st week
15. yellow (6/11)
16. green (6/16)

Sunday June 12th

7th batch
11. red (2/5) 2nd week
17. yellow (7/11)
18. green (7/16)

8th batch
14. orange (2/5) 2nd week
19. yellow (8/11)
20. green (8/16)

Sunday June 19th

9th batch
21. red (3/5) 1st week
22. yellow (9/11)
23. green (9/16)

10th batch
24. orange (3/5) 1st week
25. yellow (10/11)
26. green (10/16)

Sunday June 26th

11th batch
21. red (3/5) 2nd week
27. yellow (11/11)
28. green (11/16)

12th batch
24. orange (3/5) 2nd week
29. green (12/15)
30. green (13/16)

Sunday July 3rd

13th batch
31. red (4/5) 1st week
32. orange (4/5) 1st week
33. green (14/16)

14th batch
31. red (4/5) 2nd week
32. orange (4/5) 2nd week
34. green (15/16)

Sunday July 10th

15th batch
35. Red (5/5) 1st week
36. Orange (5/5) 1st week
37. green (16/16)

16th batch
35. Red (5/5) 2nd week
36. Orange (5/5) 2nd week

--

July 11th, we get an event of some sorts because we are entitled.

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Old 05-11-2016, 10:58 AM   #43
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Or we could just give people a chance to show that they've read and understood the bastard rules?
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:02 AM   #44
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Or we could just give people a chance to show that they've read and understood the bastard rules?
Yes, but lets get the ball rolling with the ones that did read the rules. Whenever we pick to start the process, by my count, it would take maximum efficiency to be done in two months, and by ASB time, 4 months. No one is penalized if we make them drop the sigs the week they get reviewed. During that week, if they start to pick up matches, they cant opt for the rule set of no signatures to be on equal footing with the opponent.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:05 AM   #45
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People inherently cannot review their own sigs because that is in no way balanced or fair. Not everyone can step back and admit a sig of their own is broken. That's why sig court was such a fiasco. And that schedule, while very well planned, seems extremely difficult from a logistic standpoint. On top of that, if I've learned anything in my short tenure in PASBL, it's that expectinganyone to do something on time is asking to have your hopes crushed.

The simple fix for both of those, as far as I am tell, is Slash's sig reset. Other than a mandatory review thread or whatever, it's he simplest approach. And in essence, those two methods are pretty much the same. Nothing else seems as simple yet effective to me.

Please pardon any typos as I'm on mobile.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:06 AM   #46
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When Apost-senpai leaves you out of his roster list :'(

Having only been around for the last round of sig approvals, I guess this doesn't really affect me? But the new rules will definitely help me with sigs I still have to write.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:08 AM   #47
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When Apost-senpai leaves you out of his roster list :'(

Having only been around for the last round of sig approvals, I guess this doesn't really affect me? But the new rules will definitely help me with sigs I still have to write.
You dont have sigs up for retroactive rejection or review. Your first batch was the previous one, under Jeri's sig rejection massacre.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:23 AM   #48
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People inherently cannot review their own sigs because that is in no way balanced or fair. Not everyone can step back and admit a sig of their own is broken. That's why sig court was such a fiasco. And that schedule, while very well planned, seems extremely difficult from a logistic standpoint. On top of that, if I've learned anything in my short tenure in PASBL, it's that expectinganyone to do something on time is asking to have your hopes crushed.

The simple fix for both of those, as far as I am tell, is Slash's sig reset. Other than a mandatory review thread or whatever, it's he simplest approach. And in essence, those two methods are pretty much the same. Nothing else seems as simple yet effective to me.

Please pardon any typos as I'm on mobile.
2 reviewers mean that the other person reviews the other approver.

If by the end of the week you get some fully rejected, then just go back to the regular thread. We are talking about getting this done in the same time span that it took SS to review sigs before Jeri did them last. 2 months is a good timeline to use as a guideline. Maybe the approvers can do 4 people instead of 3 people if the time allows for it. This idea of mine incorporates Slash's approach of a league wide reset, and takes Snorby's idea of a schedule. The trainer pencil themselves in, get their squad fully dropped from sigs at the beginning of the week and in return you the trainer gets reviewed by the end of the week. By the end of the whole ordeal, the active userbase will be fully reviewed, with kosher sigs, while the ones that opted for no review will just have to start fresh with sigs after a set date.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:29 AM   #49
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But if people are dropping their sigs at different times, how is that fair? That would leave some people with potentially broken sigs battling people with no sigs at all.
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:31 AM   #50
Ironthunder
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Also, main issue with your idea Apos: The time needed. People who get sigs out of the way early are going to get fucked if they fight anyone who still retains their broken sigs because they're being reviewed later. I mean, we could just say NO SIGS CAN BE USED UNTIL THEY'RE ALL CHECKED but that's a bit awful.
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