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Old 04-13-2016, 02:18 AM   #51
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So with this conversation having died down and a few things having been brought up, it's become a bit apparent that we do have a problem with the ending early of matches in general and not just in the realm of DQs. So I'll be writing a quick proposal here in regards to that.

For reference, here are the two current Announcements posts detailing everything in regards to that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy
A Guide to Matches ending early

Ideally, matches end when one of both battling parties have lost all of their eligible Pokémon, granting either a clear win or a tie. However, sometimes battles end prematurely. Perhaps one trainer has vanished. Maybe one just doesn't want to continue. Here is a guide for what happens in these scenarios.

Disqualification
If a trainer has gone over the Disqualification (DQ) time for the battle, their opponent may ask the ref to DQ them. This can only happen if the battle has previously reached a length of five completed rounds or more.

If, at the time of DQ, there is no target Pokémon, there is one that cannot feasibly be KOd in one round or the DQing trainer simply doesn't feel like trying for a KO, the ref posts confirming the DQ and the match ends. If the DQing trainer would like extra points, a free-round can be attempted where they try to KO their vanished opponent's Pokémon, using a three-mover if they have one left. The enemy Pokémon will make no attempt to evade or defend itself against free-round orders.

Once the match ends, points are distributed as normal, with the DQing trainer treated as the winner even if the match was technically a loss or a tie from a numbers standpoint. If they did not manage to KO a Pokémon during the match, no KOs are awarded, though TP and SP are still awarded accordingly. Battles that end this way will go on a trainer's record as a DQ Win or a DQ Loss.

Cancellation
If a trainer has gone over the DQ time for the battle but the match has gone for less than five rounds, their opponent may ask the ref to cancel the match. The battlers gain no points, though the ref will earn 1 SP only - no modifications for speed bonuses will apply. Battles that end this way will not go on a trainer's record and do not have to be placed in the Battle Results thread.

Calling off a match
If trainers mutually decide that they wish to end a battle, they can jointly ask the ref to bring it to a halt. If the match has not completed five rounds, they may request that the ref cancels the match. If the match has completed six rounds or more, the trainers may not cancel the match but mat request that it be called a draw. Standard rules apply, with trainers and referees earning the same points as if the match had naturally ended in a draw. In the case of Gym Matches, it remains the Gym Leader's choice whether to award a badge. Battles that end this way will go on a trainer's record as a DQ Draw.

Forfeit
If one party gives up and forfeits, the match ends instantly, with no possibility for a free-round. The forfeiting party has more than one Pokémon remaining, their current Pokémon is not considered KOd and points to the 'winner' and ref are awarded based on the current KO count on the winner's side, while the 'loser' will only receive half the usual points that they would from a regular loss. If a trainer forfeits on their last Pokémon, it is considered recalled and KOd and points are awarded normally. Battles that end this way will go on a trainer's record as a standard Win or Loss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi
Okay let's fix this real quick.

New Cancellation Rule!

If a match goes over 5 rounds, you may cancel for the following 2 reasons with consent from both battlers (and the ref, if still active) and an LO's approval (for now):
1) the match has not been reffed and a replacement cannot be found (both battlers must request)
2) the battle is generally inactive and the ref wishes to drop it (the ref must request and both battlers must consent)

In the case of the cancellation, the ref will be rewarded SP equivalent to any KOs scored by one side, with appropriate bonuses. If no KOs were scored, they will get the standard .5 SP.
Do note that there is an inconsistency on the amount of SP given to the ref for reffing a cancellation. Upon asking Jeri about this some time ago he detailed that Dave's post superceded his and that the correct amount is 1 SP. ...though he seems to have become confused on this point as of late, but I digress.

Anyway, here's a brief bullet pointed list of things that need clarified or could use some change in this regard:

- Fix the inconsistency and set it to 1 SP for cancellation (everyone has been going by this and it's the initial ruling anyway)
- Clarification that a DQ Free Round does not mean every attack is going to be full power (S_M touched on this in his post, and it should be noted that exhaustion still very much plays a part in Free Rounds - no more free KOs that you're not actually earning)
- Stipulation of Cancellation SP. The last ref gets the SP, not the one posting the cancellation. If the match needed cancelled due to an inactive ref, the battlers should be following the rules requesting an LO to cancel the match (sorry guys but free 1 SP for posting is ridiculous and opposed to the responsible culture we are attempting to create)
- Clarification of points given in a cancellation Draw when the amount of current KOs is uneven. The ref is given SP relative to the higher number of KOs, while the battlers are given TP and KOs relative to the lower number (it is ultimately the battler's choice to call a draw, and they should be taking the hit on points, no more screwing the ref out of well earned SP)
- Further clarification of called draws with Gyms. Note that the Gym Leader confers with the LOs as to whether the badge is given (it's been this way for a while now, and just needs formally stated)
- Changes to points given for a forfeit. Upon the call of a forfeit, the match still ends instantly, but instead ending with the current KO count for the winner + an additional KO for if the forfeiting trainer was on their last 'mon, we shift to the current KO count for the winner + an additional KO for each 'mon the forfeiting trainer had that was at or below one third of their total health or energy (this was kinda more what I was going with when I proposed the change to how forfeiting worked way back when, and it really is just a better way overall to handle our heavy switching meta - no more screwing the winning trainer and the ref just because the forfeiting trainer switched a lot)
- Implementation of the aforementioned long TA match freezing rule. If a trainer has to go on TA for an extended period of time, the TAing trainer and their opponent may agree to put the match on ice. Once the TAing trainer returns and both they and their opponent have a match slot available, the match resumes with whatever ref they find. The number of frozen matches any TAing trainer may have cannot exceed the number of match slots they have available of that type, but may go beyond this number for a trainer not on TA if they just have a run of bad luck on battle opponents, with only the matches they have actively going at the time of TA counting towards their own cap if they end up doing the same (this is something we've kinda done in the past and really just needs to happen - overall I don't see it happening too frequently and most matches can end early as detailed above, but this is good to have for those matches between vets that really want to go at it, for those who just really need a match against a notable, etc.)

Edit: And of course I don't actually see this written anywhere so...

- Clarification on cancellation SP. No SP given if the match didn't even go a single round (seriously guys I've seen people collect on zero round matches and you should be ashamed of yourselves)

That's about it I think. Feel free to discuss.
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Old 04-13-2016, 02:35 AM   #52
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Yeah i think this is great. Getting screwed over as a ref by cancellations can be a bit of a kick in the nuts.

Really like the freezing idea, while im not one to go on massive TA's, i often avoid battling people that a prone to this because there is nothing worse than being active but having your slot/s locked up in a match that cant move. We also have to remove the stigma on DQs, if someone leaves for an extended period of time without a TA, they deserve to get DQ'd, no matter if they are a newbie or a veteran.
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Old 04-13-2016, 12:24 PM   #53
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>- Implementation of the aforementioned long TA match freezing rule. If a trainer has to go on TA for an extended period of time, the TAing trainer and their opponent may agree to put the match on ice. Once the TAing trainer returns and both they and their opponent have a match slot available, the match resumes with whatever ref they find. The number of frozen matches any TAing trainer may have cannot exceed the number of match slots they have available of that type, but may go beyond this number for a trainer not on TA if they just have a run of bad luck on battle opponents, with only the matches they have actively going at the time of TA counting towards their own cap if they end up doing the same (this is something we've kinda done in the past and really just needs to happen - overall I don't see it happening too frequently and most matches can end early as detailed above, but this is good to have for those matches between vets that really want to go at it, for those who just really need a match against a notable, etc.)

I think freezing should be allotted to one match for the member that is not leaving, and for all matches for the trainer going on hiatus. Should there be a timer on how long a match can be frozen? I want this idea to be as tamed as possible. I wouldn't want to see a member take a two month leave of absence, do a round or so when they come back, and then freeze it.

TL;DR: How long can a match stay frozen and how many times can you freeze the same match?
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Old 04-13-2016, 12:35 PM   #54
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So the reason there's not a hard limit on the person not leaving is because it's not their fault that their opponents are up and disappearing for extended periods of time. It should realistically be rare for any given trainer to have more than a couple matches on ice at any given time, but the rule is just there to be safe.

The timer on how long a match is frozen is however long the TA is, followed by the amount of time it takes for both parties to have a slot available. The TAing trainer should be fairly responsible in this case and attempt to have a slot open regularly for the match, but at the same time if their opponent is clearly not going to have a free slot for a while they can get on with other things until the time comes. Ultimately this is an agreed upon freeze by both trainers because they want the match to happen at some point and picking up from scratch just hinders them both. Freezing should overall be pretty rare, and if some is freezing, coming back to do a single round, and freezing again, they're going to have to get an agreement on the freeze from their opponent for every single time they want to freeze it.
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Old 04-13-2016, 03:01 PM   #55
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As regards TOing and the like mixing with TA: A time like this right now, tech week, I have a sizable portion of time on my phone (not the largest but extant), but not to any other device. Say, for simplicity's sake, I'm back in my GS3 days without a text editor. In this instance I'm able to access UPN and do simple things like order and the like but I don't have the supplies to ref on me for most hours of the day and the other times I'm either doing HW or supposed to be sleeping. In the setup I have I can TO and order, but reffing is off the table. How would this be handled if I'm on a reffing only TA?
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Old 04-13-2016, 03:16 PM   #56
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Well... there's a reason we're not currently implementing any form of TO ban for people who are on TA but not ordering/reffing right now. It's just as simple as it'll be best to see how the new system works out before something like that should be considered.
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Old 04-13-2016, 07:14 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaze View Post
So the reason there's not a hard limit on the person not leaving is because it's not their fault that their opponents are up and disappearing for extended periods of time. It should realistically be rare for any given trainer to have more than a couple matches on ice at any given time, but the rule is just there to be safe.

The timer on how long a match is frozen is however long the TA is, followed by the amount of time it takes for both parties to have a slot available. The TAing trainer should be fairly responsible in this case and attempt to have a slot open regularly for the match, but at the same time if their opponent is clearly not going to have a free slot for a while they can get on with other things until the time comes. Ultimately this is an agreed upon freeze by both trainers because they want the match to happen at some point and picking up from scratch just hinders them both. Freezing should overall be pretty rare, and if some is freezing, coming back to do a single round, and freezing again, they're going to have to get an agreement on the freeze from their opponent for every single time they want to freeze it.
Fine.

I would like to see a different stipulation. If both trainers have a slot open, the frozen match auto fills the spot for both trainers should the other TA'ed trainer return. I wouldn't want to see people putting off frozen matches, and it saying in limbo.
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Old 04-13-2016, 07:17 PM   #58
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Well yeah that's how it should be working. People should be checking with eachother as to when they will be having slots open.
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Old 04-13-2016, 07:18 PM   #59
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A hard written rule please, instead of common sense would be deeply appreciated.
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Old 04-13-2016, 07:39 PM   #60
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It's kinda already written right there. XD
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:17 PM   #61
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I like Sneaze's points. I approve.

I also agree with DT. I think it should be explicitly stated as a rule. It's implied, but it leaves a bit of a loophole I'd rather stay closed
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Old 04-13-2016, 11:58 PM   #62
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Well some of us go on TA cause we are limited to mobile use for extend periods. Like it's pretty much impossible for me to ref on a Monday and Thursday because I don't have access to my computer from 6am to atleast 8pm.
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Old 04-14-2016, 06:36 AM   #63
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Phone reffings are not impossible.

Agree on explicit rule.
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:00 PM   #64
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Not impossible but highly impractical if you don't have an iPhone with its baked in text editor.
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Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Things One Is Not Allowed To Do In Exalted
244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:05 PM   #65
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I will point out that it is actually impossible for some people- I had an archaic flip phone until a fortnight ago or so. Not everyone has a data plan. I know that the mobile thing isn't an issue in this case, but there'd be another group (me now if I reffed things) who has limited data and, while they wouldnt want to be on for the 30+ minutes it takes to ref a match well, they might like to pop in to the TO every so often.

Also some people have notes they keep on their desktops. Point being there's absolutely reasons expecting a phone reffing is silly xd;
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:36 PM   #66
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my phone got fucked sooooo
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:43 PM   #67
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I agree, you really need a computer and most of the time you need your computer. I keep all my reffing data on my laptop so if i dont have access to it i cant ref anything that isnt a cancellation or i guess just setting up a thread lol
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:46 PM   #68
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If it is of any help, you can download the google docs app. That way, you can have it on the go and access your notes anywhere you go!
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:58 PM   #69
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Yeah but i prefer to do it all on exel. Im not a fan of google docs
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Old 04-14-2016, 11:34 PM   #70
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Google Sheets then. Now, I'm normally a very by the numbers person so I just keep track of the amount of Minor increments of Health/Energy something has left at any given time, so Google Docs would be fine by me, it would just be using my ref Drive account rather than school. But I have an iPhone now, so. Speaking of which I should probably get the terms scale C/P'd into Notes on this thing.
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Quoth the Honchkrow (nevermore!).
Quote:
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244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 04-15-2016, 12:51 AM   #71
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There's also been some phones that are less than kind to things like that. Some phones, and I've had experience with this, interpret certain buttons like the "post reply" button as images only and doesn't let you actually act on it. It can be difficult if not impossible to C/P move descriptions and Species/Type Characteristics (which is honestly something that should be done since we have info spread out really far and it's good to make sure everyone is on the same page with SCs and if there's a contesting to the reffing, a move descript or link may be needed to properly resolve it easily and soundly, or to link to rulings). And the C/P difficultly or even impossibility can be problematic since a fair few phones sometimes crash the browser for various reasons, and unlike written kitten, it doesn't save the copy. And you can't just go from WK to it for the same C/P reasons. And then there's times when someone's computer eats the reffing or times out, which also runs into the same problems without a copy saved to somewhere like WK. Not saying these problems will apply to everyone, but they're definitely factors for some and need to be kept in consideration as well
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Old 04-15-2016, 01:10 AM   #72
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The simple answer is if you can't ref put up a TA. Really guys don't get so caught up in something that's so incredibly easy to deal with that it already has been dealt with.
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Old 04-15-2016, 01:41 AM   #73
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Doublepost to bring this back on topic as discussion seems to have finished about the actual proposed changes and to give Jeri a hard post to look at for his opinions.

Here is everything that has been agreed on:

Quote:
Cracking down on DQs and changing a decade old system:

- DQ timer may now be set from 1 day to 1 week (not everybody is available every weekday)
- After the DQ timer runs out, the trainer will be bumped via VM by either the ref or the other trainer (people forget sometimes!)
- After the bump, if the DQ timer runs out again, the DQ may be enforced with no chance of repeal (no more silly "I posted before the ref officiated the DQ" ancient rule)
- GLs may set DQ times which apply only to their challenger (see next point as to why)
- Gym Leaders, E4 members, both the challenging trainer and the MLC in Legend matches, and all parties in either Tournaments or Contests will have set a set 10 day DQ, after which they will be immediately DQ'd, with the bump occuring after the 7 day mark (people should be doing what they're supposed to if they expect to run as a major part of the game)
- TA posts will freeze all the aforementioned DQ timers if there is an exact timeframe (duh)

Fast refs we love you! Changes to the current fast reffing bonuses!

- +.25 SP per 'mon for reffing each round within a week (hey this is the same as before!)
- An ADDITIONAL +.25 SP per 'mon for reffing each round within 96 hours, for a total of +.5 SP per 'mon (we appreciating those of you who are fast but not SONICTHEHEDGEGHOGFAST)
- Old +1 SP per 'mon bonus for reffing within 48 hours is being scrapped! Instead, reffing each round within 48 hours removes all the other fast reffing bonuses and gives you a flat 2x bonus to ALL SP EARNED. That's the base 'mon SP, doubles SP, Gym SP, and even special event SP bonuses, all DOUBLED. (NO SERIOUSLY WE LOVE YOU FAST REFS)
- Just as before, TA posts will freeze your reffing timers if you give an exact timeframe (duh)

Ending matches early - a review

- Fix the inconsistency and set it to 1 SP for cancellation (everyone has been going by this and it's the initial ruling anyway)
- Clarification that a DQ Free Round does not mean every attack is going to be full power (S_M touched on this in his post, and it should be noted that exhaustion still very much plays a part in Free Rounds - no more free KOs that you're not actually earning)
- Stipulation of Cancellation SP. The last ref gets the SP, not the one posting the cancellation. If the match needed cancelled due to an inactive ref, the battlers should be following the rules requesting an LO to cancel the match (sorry guys but free 1 SP for posting is ridiculous and opposed to the responsible culture we are attempting to create)
- Clarification of points given in a cancellation Draw when the amount of current KOs is uneven. The ref is given SP relative to the higher number of KOs, while the battlers are given TP and KOs relative to the lower number (it is ultimately the battler's choice to call a draw, and they should be taking the hit on points, no more screwing the ref out of well earned SP)
- Further clarification of called draws with Gyms. Note that the Gym Leader confers with the LOs as to whether the badge is given (it's been this way for a while now, and just needs formally stated)
- Changes to points given for a forfeit. Upon the call of a forfeit, the match still ends instantly, but instead ending with the current KO count for the winner + an additional KO for if the forfeiting trainer was on their last 'mon, we shift to the current KO count for the winner + an additional KO for each 'mon the forfeiting trainer had that was at or below one third of their total health or energy (this was kinda more what I was going with when I proposed the change to how forfeiting worked way back when, and it really is just a better way overall to handle our heavy switching meta - no more screwing the winning trainer and the ref just because the forfeiting trainer switched a lot)
- Implementation of the aforementioned long TA match freezing rule. If a trainer has to go on TA for an extended period of time, the TAing trainer and their opponent may agree to put the match on ice. Once the TAing trainer returns and both they and their opponent have a match slot available, the match is to immediately resume with whatever ref they find. The number of frozen matches any TAing trainer may have cannot exceed the number of match slots they have available of that type, but may go beyond this number for a trainer not on TA if they just have a run of bad luck on battle opponents, with only the matches they have actively going at the time of TA counting towards their own cap if they end up doing the same (this is something we've kinda done in the past and really just needs to happen - overall I don't see it happening too frequently and most matches can end early as detailed above, but this is good to have for those matches between vets that really want to go at it, for those who just really need a match against a notable, etc.)
- Clarification on cancellation SP. No SP given if the match didn't even go a single round (seriously guys I've seen people collect on zero round matches and you should be ashamed of yourselves)
If Jeri's okay with all of this I'll write a compiled post of all changes implemented in tandem with the rules that are actually staying as is so that we have a single uniform place to look on these rulings. I also have an SP calculator pre-made that can be put on the site this weekend as people have fervently requested.
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Old 04-15-2016, 10:16 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneaze
- Changes to points given for a forfeit. Upon the call of a forfeit, the match still ends instantly, but instead ending with the current KO count for the winner + an additional KO for if the forfeiting trainer was on their last 'mon, we shift to the current KO count for the winner + an additional KO for each 'mon the forfeiting trainer had that was at or below one third of their total health or energy (this was kinda more what I was going with when I proposed the change to how forfeiting worked way back when, and it really is just a better way overall to handle our heavy switching meta - no more screwing the winning trainer and the ref just because the forfeiting trainer switched a lot)
Why is it this and not full points to the winner? Just curious.
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Old 04-15-2016, 11:07 AM   #75
Sneaze
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sigs Hell
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Because full points for 'mon that were never even sent out is incredibly dumb. Earn your KOs by actually getting things at least low.
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PASBL - Ghost Grass Gym Leader - Dragon Elite Four


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Whatever Sneasel says is right
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