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Old 04-11-2016, 09:27 PM   #26
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People who can only weekends are accomodated by posting a TA. No need to complicate things.
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:29 PM   #27
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People who can only weekends are accomodated by posting a TA. No need to complicate things.
Well, not the same thing. Would it be fair to have someone post a TA every single week, come in on a friday do a round and still get the 48 hour bonus? I think that is a bit unfair. You are gaming the system at that point. The idea wouldn't hurt as a badge at the very least?
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:30 PM   #28
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So long as it's clear they aren't TOing and are actually unable to do things, it's fine.
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:30 PM   #29
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I think it sounds good!
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:35 PM   #30
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So long as it's clear they aren't TOing and are actually unable to do things, it's fine.
Sneaze, its not the same idea. I'm encouraging a match to progress with multiple rounds, and accommodating people who might not be able to ASB as frequent on weekdays. The TA loophole, where you place one every single time AND the bonus is paused for you every single time defeats the purpose of forgiveness for IRL responsibilities.

If we are overhauling this system, I would like the bonus repurchase to be taken a bit more serious. My initial proposal was a 1 time purchase. But alas, it turned into a clutch because people do it multiple times (or until it is lucrative).
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:43 PM   #31
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Realistically it was meant to be a one time thing. But bad wording is bad.

And I'm not saying your idea is outright bad. Just that it's overcomplicated in a way we don't need. If people abuse TA, which they haven't up until now, it can be addressed then.
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:48 PM   #32
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Do I have to PM you so I can tell you what I'm observing? I dont want to hurt people's feelings.

And my idea is to go in tandem with yours, not one over the other.
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Old 04-11-2016, 09:50 PM   #33
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I mean, feel free. It still should remain something to look into later if need be.
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Old 04-11-2016, 10:12 PM   #34
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Alright i like this idea but can you calculate a regular match for me sneaze?

so i would say a standard match atm is a 3v3 which if reffed in the 48hr bonus gives 6SP.

Under your proposed change, what would it net?
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Old 04-11-2016, 10:16 PM   #35
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It would still be 6 SP if it's just a normal match. The primary purpose is to reward further on quick reffing of more difficult matches, which is why it would apply to double Gym and Doubles SP. It also just makes any event SP all the better for those reffing quickly as it also doubles that.

Basically it rewards being quick without allowing for "lol more SP for a 2v2 RF".
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Old 04-11-2016, 10:26 PM   #36
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Eww rewarding people for being something they aren't.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:27 AM   #37
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Seems good, let's get it official. Only slight thing I'd personally add is possibly some bonus for reffing exhibs (maybe just doubles bonus?), because they can be nightmares to ref, but they have no real incentive to do so over a standard match.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:37 AM   #38
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If we really want to change DQ culture, there needs to be a limit on the way in which you can TA yourself out of responsibility.

Fixed time period TAs should be the only ones that get you our of losing a bonus, as suggested. But we should set a maximum time limit. If you are going on holiday for two weeks and will not be able to order, fine, go ahead and TA. But I think we should set the limit at a month max. People absolutely do have real life commitments or personal issues that mean that they will not realistically be able to do anything for a month, or will not feel up to ordering/reffing regularly (but may still want to be in the community during that time). I would argue that those people should feel obligated to say to people "look, I am not going to be able to play for a while, so we'll do this another time" and let the match go. And if they don't, the system should do it for them. If you can't order/ref for a month, your match should be killed off (or at least paused, allowing participants to do other things) automatically regardless of why it is that you are out.

What do people think of this?

EDIT: Otherwise given the current status quo I am broadly supportive of Sneezey's plan. Just be wary of constantly amping up the need to ref within 48 hours. An ASB that moves weekly is fine.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:45 AM   #39
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Agreed but really when was the last time someone TA'd for a full month and didn't have their stuff cycled out?

...actually don't answer that I'd prefer not to just name and shame here as I'm sure it has happened at some point or other, even if not recent. My point is that it doesn't seem to happen overly frequently so it's not a terrible worry.
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Old 04-12-2016, 02:00 AM   #40
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There are plenty of people including the both of us (most just don't bother to TA). If you are serious about changing DQ culture and making a fast, responsible league, you'll strongly consider this.
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Old 04-12-2016, 02:05 AM   #41
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Well that's my point. There are a lot of people that don't do jack, but very few of them actually use TAs for extended periods of time. That said, with the fact that we're trying to make sure people actually do TA when necessary so people know what's going on, you are right and we should likely implement a max continuous TA run of two weeks. If you can't do anything after that and continue to TA, you should drop things.
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Old 04-12-2016, 02:07 AM   #42
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Well I mean there are several ways to play it. A hard limit of a month max. A limit of two weeks but you can do it three times. The ability for you to freeze matches. We just need to stop shying away from the fact that one person's real life situation should not necessarily stop other people having fun.
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Old 04-12-2016, 02:31 AM   #43
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(honestly the freeze option would be the best if it wasn't for the fact that when said person came back they'd have to wait for their original opponents to finish one of the matches they're in, which could take forever)

I do like all the things you've put forward, and honestly yes any of them could work. Obviously though that's entirely up to the LOs to decide on since any one of them works perfectly fine with what's already been put forward.
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Old 04-12-2016, 04:42 AM   #44
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Quite true.

We must find the balance that makes it fun for everyone involved at the same time. ASB is not a job. Stuff like gyms or GMs should be held to a standard and killed off if not but people do have lives.
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:33 AM   #45
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so basically it's "guys come ref my Gym matches fast so you can get ABSOLUTE CRACK GYM + DOUBLES SP.

These changes look good, and as for the month-long TA thing, if freezing isn't a thing we'll be implementing due to complications then I think that people should be encouraged to pass on their matches to another willing ref if they're going to be gone for that long. If whatever they're going to be gone for is important enough, then honestly not having the same matches to ref when you get back shouldn't be that big of a deal. Plus whoever you pass it off to might be willing to give it back when you return.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:27 PM   #46
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Hey look people discussed things, great. My thoughts were all pretty much in the first post and it looks like the good ideas have been further expanded upon. The only thing I would say is that the 1 day-1 week DQ times may be better as 3-7 days, 1 day is a little intense.

I recommend that this:
> - After the bump, if the DQ timer runs out again, the DQ may be enforced with no chance of repeal (no more silly "I posted before the ref officiated the DQ" ancient rule)

Be interpreted as after 2x DQ time (and after the bump), the ref posts disqualifying the opponent and then asks if the opponent would like a free round; they have 1 DQ-time worth of time to do so before the match becomes official.

>for your run of the mill matches the option really should be given to allow additional time because... well... people forget

I do think that the opponent should have to actively initiate DQ by bumping the thread for friendly matches; if you decide you don't want to DQ your opponent (like people said it's just a game, it's not that big of a deal lol) you can post a "reminder" instead of a bump which doesn't count toward the DQ timer.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:36 PM   #47
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The reason 1 day is a thing is that RF matches exist and nobody wants someone taking 6 days on a match that was supposed to just be quick levels.

Your two following points also contradict eachother super hard and just muddy things. Ultimately at the end of the day it is up to the battlers as to whether the match continues, though. If the ref doesn't want to ref a slower match, they can drop it.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:38 PM   #48
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Well they don't contradict each other in that I said the opponent has to initiate the DQ but the ref is the one that actually enforces it. But if we want you to have to post twice (once to bump and once to DQ) that's fine too
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:32 PM   #49
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Well the bump shouldn't even be in thread in the first place. If you notice I explicitly mentioned that it need be VM'd, as that's where it's most easily viewed.
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Old 04-12-2016, 07:42 PM   #50
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As someone with a job and other obligations I would rather give people the benefit of the doubt.

That said I would be willing to start allowing people to say "Look I am really busy right now and I don't really want to stop doing this but I cannot post frequently for whatever real life reason" and let them put the match in the freezer until their life can sort out and they can come back to it once they and their opponent both have a slot and they can find a ref to ref it. As long as you can attach it to a TA, I'd be fine with it.
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