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Old 02-19-2016, 09:19 PM   #301
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Like I get the desire to streamline ASB and stuff but we do actually have legitimate anime evidence to support our system and I don't want to take out all of the fun quirks that makes ASB interesting.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:21 PM   #302
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:22 PM   #303
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The annual Ghostening. Let's get spoopy.

Jeri any thoughts about my points? :3
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:25 PM   #304
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I really hate talking about Ghosts and will probably not be able to deal with this until tomorrow sorry!

Someone can make me an outline of how they think Ghosts should work and I'd be willing to look at it. At this point I think it's probably more prudent for someone to just bulletpoint mechanics so I can write something fresh.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:29 PM   #305
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Well I mean I think this works rather well but I might be able to draft something with Sneezey's help.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:31 PM   #306
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No I think what we have is actually okay but I'd really just like to rewrite it to make it seem less unmanageable. My constant revisions of old rules has just made it worse.

Boil what we have into something bullet pointed and I'll make it back into paragraphs that actually read like rules.
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Old 02-19-2016, 09:54 PM   #307
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While I agree that what we have by and large works there are some things that at the very least need a small review. The maximum of a single state change in a round being one. Not necessarily a "this needs changed" sort of review, but definitely a "this is how it should currently be working and for some reason nobody gets that" one. Will work with Emi to get some bullet points as requested, though.

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Old 02-19-2016, 10:03 PM   #308
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Like I get the desire to streamline ASB and stuff but we do actually have legitimate anime evidence to support our system and I don't want to take out all of the fun quirks that makes ASB interesting.
No, we don't have animé evidence to support our system.

Like. At all.
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Old 02-20-2016, 02:18 AM   #309
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tbh, I think if we just tweaked Ethereal to take 20% less damage from physical moves instead of having a full-blown physical resistance, then it'd be a lot better.
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Old 02-20-2016, 02:31 AM   #310
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tbh, I think if we just tweaked Ethereal to take 20% less damage from physical moves instead of having a full-blown physical resistance, then it'd be a lot better.
I also ment to bring this up. I feel like then giving it back a resistance would be fair
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Old 02-20-2016, 04:44 AM   #311
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No I think what we have is actually okay but I'd really just like to rewrite it to make it seem less unmanageable. My constant revisions of old rules has just made it worse.

Boil what we have into something bullet pointed and I'll make it back into paragraphs that actually read like rules.
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No, we don't have animé evidence to support our system.

Like. At all.
The anime now focuses on making sure fighting and normal moves dot not affect ghost. This is not Pokemon 1997 when there was only a trio of ghost, now there is a whole family.

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Old 02-20-2016, 09:36 AM   #312
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Yes but a full-blown immunity to Normal and Fighting is a bit on the broken side, because you're basically limiting a sizeable number of Pokemon to offtype only vs Ghosts. We've been trying to make Normal a good type recently, let's not send it back to the darkness from whence it came.
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Old 02-20-2016, 10:09 AM   #313
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*watches thread derail into oblivion by people who have little concept of balance*
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Old 02-20-2016, 10:15 AM   #314
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*watches thread derail into oblivion by people who have little concept of balance*
I recommend we keep the conversation constructive rather than it turn into a situation where we do not communicate efficiently.

Clearly what I'm getting it is not a straight up immunity for ghost against fighting and normal. What I'm asking is to move away from a system that brings about yearly controversy. The more simple a game mechanic is, the better the flow of a game. The way Ghosts are currently written are too complicated. If someone wants to obtain said states, be free to add it on to a sig so you can adhere to a relic of the past. For example, a sig for gengar to go invisible seems perfectly reasonable. If you want to waste a sig on that for a Trevenant, then you probably don't want to obtain something that will patch up a weakness. Of course, this is just an opinion and the current system is fun, but at the same it is cumbersome and it keeps bringing about needless disorientation.
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Old 02-20-2016, 10:26 AM   #315
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Oh the conversation hasn't been constructive for a while. Not since the second post in this thread so don't go telling me how I should be acting. The fact of the matter is, I wanted to bring up a couple of points that either needed clarification or were being discussed before and people saw it as an opportunity to bring it their raging hate boners for Ghosts and completely ignore that I had brought up.

If you actually want to balance Ghosts, the answer is to strip the Gastly line, Misdreavus line, and Duskull line of their ability to change states and keep allowing the other Ghosts to use them, because they need them. Ghost is absolutely awful defensively since it has virtually no defensive synergy and tacks on additional, common weaknesses to Pokemon who frankly don't need them, and it brings little to the table offensively to help cover any other types weaknesses. Pure Ghost is the only reasonably good typing, and its the only reason why Ghosts like Cofagrigus are actually looked at, but we just gave the typing a kick in the dick by allowing one of the most common and most powerful types in the game the ability to check it.

So no more discussion about removing Ghost states. Would it be simpler? Of course. Would it be better for ASB as a whole? Absolutely not.
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Old 02-20-2016, 10:35 AM   #316
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Oh the conversation hasn't been constructive for a while. Not since the second post in this thread so don't go telling me how I should be acting. The fact of the matter is, I wanted to bring up a couple of points that either needed clarification or were being discussed before and people saw it as an opportunity to bring it their raging hate boners for Ghosts and completely ignore that I had brought up.

If you actually want to balance Ghosts, the answer is to strip the Gastly line, Misdreavus line, and Duskull line of their ability to change states and keep allowing the other Ghosts to use them, because they need them. Ghost is absolutely awful defensively since it has virtually no defensive synergy and tacks on additional, common weaknesses to Pokemon who frankly don't need them, and it brings little to the table offensively to help cover any other types weaknesses. Pure Ghost is the only reasonably good typing, and its the only reason why Ghosts like Cofagrigus are actually looked at, but we just gave the typing a kick in the dick by allowing one of the most common and most powerful types in the game the ability to check it.

So no more discussion about removing Ghost states. Would it be simpler? Of course. Would it be better for ASB as a whole? Absolutely not.
With all of the respect in the world Emi, behave as you may see fit but remember that we are in an open forum which allows a dialogue of discussion on the subject at hand without our feelings getting hurt.

Your points are as valid to be addressed as are the viewpoints of other members within the community. I'm not pushing aside your contribution, I'm asking you to respectfully rebuttal or defend why the other side of the coin is inherently wrong without making it personal. The discussion on ghost states should remain open so long as other members have an issue with it. I could come to a consensus with you and agree that they should not be touched maybe on the trivial reason that ghost states are part of ASB as a game. I respect that. Please respect my point of view is all I'm asking in return, and never try to silence others.
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Old 02-20-2016, 10:42 AM   #317
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I literally just did. I explained why removing Ghost states is wrong. Doesn't help I'm ignored time and time again.
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Old 02-20-2016, 11:19 AM   #318
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Emi with respect you rarely listen to other people when we politely explain that you may want to rethink. Why should anyone pay you that courtesy?
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Old 02-20-2016, 11:33 AM   #319
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If you can give me an example where people were being respectful, then by all means show it. In general, though, the reactions have been dismissive (See: CAP until I finally asked people to let me try it and ensure people that their points were being, the SC thread when I brought up Normal resisting Ghost, Charm when I brought up dodge-and-strike moves being perfect dodges), insulting (see you in the same conversation), or acting like I'm some ticking mental health time bomb five seconds from blowing.

This really isn't the place to have this discussion though.
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Old 02-20-2016, 11:52 AM   #320
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I really don't like the idea of making Ghost mechanics only work for certain species. We just moved away from that and going back to it in the opposite direction really isn't a good answer.
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Old 02-20-2016, 11:56 AM   #321
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If we head in that direction, then sure ghost states for all. They are fun to have, and I never really understood from a mechanics point of view why some did not get it even though the most powerful ghost gets all three with almost perfect use.

I think a good launching point is imperfect invisibility via SC, and perfect invisibility via sig or ghost token for all ghost for example.
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Old 02-20-2016, 12:05 PM   #322
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I am more pleased with states for all then states for none, but we did just remove the Normal-type nerf and place it onto a bunch of Pokemon (although I'm not sure if that's live right now) so I think we do have precedence in removing the states from the really good Ghosts (and I think that is the best compromise, since I don't think a lot of people really have much of an issue with a lot of the lower tier Ghosts having states).

On imperfect invisibility...eh. I don't see invisibility as much of a problem honestly, and I've only really been able to abuse it in one match, which to be honest having the invisibility be imperfect would have been largely insignificant. That said, if it means all the Ghosts can have invisibility I'm largely game for it.
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Old 02-20-2016, 12:08 PM   #323
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SCs are live now. At this point all we are waiting on is the bullet point list compiled by yourself and Sneaze. Thank you for taking time to look this over Jeri!
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Old 02-20-2016, 07:35 PM   #324
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Jeri please do us all a favor and lock this thread so people who don't actually care about balancing things and only care about spewing vitriol don't have an excuse to do so (not that has entirely happened just yet but I can see it easily swinging that way already). We all knew from the get-go that a communal discussion of such a hot button issue was never going to be a good idea anyway.
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Old 02-20-2016, 07:43 PM   #325
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Done!
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