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Old 11-19-2015, 04:41 AM   #51
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Siding with Sneaze here. We have a cool, interesting base for a cool, interesting move and I'd like to see it better clarified, not pretty much completely changed. I do also support it having an effect on enthusiasm (but, as noted, not exhaustion, although it could definitely give an "illusion" of exhaustion or the reverse, with them thinking they are more/less exhausted than they currently are, but their actual limits stay the same).

Also, happiness shouldn't be dissed. While we don't have it make near enough impact, Return and Frustration are moves, and ones that should be able to see some use. Cracking a joke at the expense of happiness level just makes it more useless instead of actually doing something about it. In fact, after we're done here, we should probably take a look at those two.
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As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
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Old 11-19-2015, 05:01 AM   #52
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Happiness is a thing in ASB? Return and Frustration just run off 'how the battle's going' iirc, so I don't recall happiness ever being an ASB thing.
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Old 11-19-2015, 05:12 AM   #53
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Return (XX) -- The user relates to its current happiness state, becoming 'energized' depending on how content it is and how well it's doing in the battle. It then uses this energy to deliver a strong hit, dealing more damage the happier it is, ranging between good and significant damage for equivalent energy.
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As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
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Old 11-19-2015, 06:28 AM   #54
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The Togetic line also get boosts to Return so it's worth mentioning for a clarification.
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Old 11-19-2015, 07:58 AM   #55
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Alright so I'm about infinity percent not okay with Psych Up copying physical state in any way, shape, or form. It just reeks to me of a way to make it something in the vein of Power Swap and Guard Swap but with the upside of doing both and getting rid of any status you might have (yes I say any because if we're allowing change of physical state then why would we not allow this if we allow change of mental state to rid confusion et al) with the rather small downside of your foe not losing anything. It would become a 100% guaranteed way to instantly even out a matchup with no real downside, and I'm sorry I just can't support the idea of letting a single move even out what is potentially a few rounds of buffing, debuffing, and statusing. I really think we just need to clarify it's uses in its current form and go from there, if it still needs a bit of a buff it can be added to later, but I dislike the idea of making moves super overly good and then attempting to bring them down after they've been abused.

Also, side note, but every time I see someone suggest that exhaustion be a mental thing I want to slap people.
*Pops in before heading off to his eternal hell once again*

Gonna throw in my two cents and say this is an absolutely massive leap. Mental boosting moves already help clear confusion (Calm Mind, Amnesia). Bulk Up, Curse and the like never have and never will cure a burn.

I'm unsure which course of action is a better idea- I lean towards Kush at the moment but the other side has merit as well- but what I will say is that if you're gonna shoot down Kush's proposal do it for a better reason than this.

Also please let's just kill happiness and make Return/Frustration purely based on who's in the lead. Good if you're losing, Significant if you're winning on Return, vice versa on Frustration. Hell, maybe make them sluggish/fast accordingly, in the same vein as retaliate.
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Old 11-19-2015, 09:28 AM   #56
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I don't like killing off the happiness thing. We have moves that can mess with emotions, Swagger is enraging, Calm Mind is, well, calming, and there are SC effects that can tie into such states as well. Plus, "losing" can be subjective. One can be behind in health but up on energy, for example. A Pokemon's headspace should definitely be the defining factor.
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As may be expected though, our clear winner here was Kairne, ASB's champion of prioritizing the pokemon you like over those that are objectively better. I mean, one of his mains is a Watchog.
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Old 11-19-2015, 12:31 PM   #57
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Quote:
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*Pops in before heading off to his eternal hell once again*

Gonna throw in my two cents and say this is an absolutely massive leap. Mental boosting moves already help clear confusion (Calm Mind, Amnesia). Bulk Up, Curse and the like never have and never will cure a burn.

I'm unsure which course of action is a better idea- I lean towards Kush at the moment but the other side has merit as well- but what I will say is that if you're gonna shoot down Kush's proposal do it for a better reason than this.

Also please let's just kill happiness and make Return/Frustration purely based on who's in the lead. Good if you're losing, Significant if you're winning on Return, vice versa on Frustration. Hell, maybe make them sluggish/fast accordingly, in the same vein as retaliate.
I in no way mentioned Bulk Up or Curse or anything. The entire point is that if we allow Psych Up to copy the opponent's physical state, we'd already be throwing in everything else so it's already safe to assume the kitchen sink would go as well. Statuses are very much a part of the Pokemon's physical attributes at any given time, and it makes zero sense for it to say "I'm going to copy literally everything about you... but perhaps not that." or "I'm getting rid of every single debuff that has been put on me... but I'll hang onto this I guess." Could we word it in some stupid way to avoid doing that? Yeah probably, but again why would it not get rid of physical status when it already gets rid of mental ones?
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:36 PM   #58
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Oh ok so we are not bothering to follow the rules of this thread? Good to know.


Seems that there are two schools of thought. My personal view is that we should make it take all boosts, as well as the current enthusiasm, happiness, all that good stuff. Have it give boosts for half the original time, so if for example you ref Nasty Plot as being a sharp boost for two rounds and a small boost for another two rounds, Psych Up would give you one round of sharp boost and one round of moderate boost. If you want it to also copy status then fine whatever floats your boat.

The point about cheaply evening match ups is valid, but was dealt with by my initial suggestion. You can simply have Psych Up be less effective, less long lasting, less cost effective... etc etc. Like, yes you don't want to devalue boosting, but also Psych Up is currently without any value and could easily add a superior dimension to the boosting game without being too powerful.

I frankly cannot see any valid reason at all to argue that Psych Up should take Nasty Plot but not Iron Defense (as an example). It makes for needlessly convoluted game design and the benefit is negligible.

However, if you want it to be dull and not have Psych Up take any boosts, that would be fine. Just add in to the description that this is the case.
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Old 11-21-2015, 11:30 AM   #59
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Bonemerang (GD) -- The user throws their earthen bone, so it acts like a boomerang, that hits the opponent for decent damage, then hits again for more damage as the object flies back towards the thrower.
Just one thing:
It's not specified how much damage the bonemerang does upon returning, is it another decent? (That'd be kind of broken to use if someone just used bonemerang over and over for decent energy and it was doing heavy damage.)
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Old 11-21-2015, 11:37 AM   #60
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It's heavy damage total for considerable. The thing with Bonemerang is that you can completely gimp the return hit if you play well, thus making it inefficient. You might need to check the errata again.

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Bonemerang (GD) -- The user charges considerable Ground energy in to their bone and throws like a boomerang that hits the opponent for decent damage, then hits again for additional decent damage as the object flies back towards the thrower.
There.
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Old 11-22-2015, 03:59 AM   #61
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This is what happens when people rewrite my masterpieces :p
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Old 11-24-2015, 12:56 PM   #62
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  • The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas
  • The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
  • The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)

1)

Rest (NO) -- The user settles down and goes to sleep in order to regain energy at a fast rate. The user will sleep for about half a minute, the same length as most rounds, and will restore x1.5 a Hyper Beam worth of energy if able to sleep for the maximum time. The user may continue sleeping in to the next round if applicable. Since Rest is self-induced sleep, it is somewhat deeper than average sleep, meaning that more damage is needed to wake the user, around heavy, and only sound moves such as Uproar that specialize in waking can disturb them. Rest may only be used once per Pokémon.

2)

[08:30:09] Sprinks Sneaze: Miror make Jeri rewrite Rest so Kush can't use it to support his dumb 30 seconds claim.
[08:33:03] Sprinks Sneaze: I don't like when everyone tells a newer member that rounds aren't a specific length and then Kush comes in with a move that he wrote forever ago that gives a specific length just so he can say "that's all well and good but a round is 30 seconds"

Tl;dr bawww Kush is right yet again I wish I had read the rules before misinforming people in an official thread why does no-one listen to me ;;

3)

Remove bolded clause (1), replace with "the length of an average round" add in a thing on the main site somewhere saying that rounds are fluid and not of a set length but that it is not usually possible to use more than two moves after another Pokémon has used two moves.

Basically as long as it isn't possible for Pokémon X to do two moves and then subsequently Pokémon Y to do another two moves in the majority of rounds I think we're good. The animé does have evidence of "lol mega fuck it with two or three moves" but it's usually situational and does not make for freeflowing and balanced gameplay.


ALSO why is it we only let Pokémon use Rest once per match again? I think like six years ago people were scared of stall battles but can we consider a denerf of recovery moves? ASB is not exactly cursed with slow matchups on a regular basis. Slow orders/reffings, yes.

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Old 11-26-2015, 07:01 AM   #63
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For now I'll just make Psych Up clearer. Boost changes seems controversial enough to my surprise to enact it now.

Psych Up (NO) -- Using good energy, the user concentrates, and then gains the opponent's mindset. This will effectively put the user in the headspace of their target, granting them any mental state - positive or negative - that the opponent may have. This includes happiness, rage, enthusiasm, focus, calmness, and even states such as drowsiness or confusion, among others. This move can be used through confusion, though the foe must be in a state that would clear the status (e.g. Calm Mind, Zen Headbutt, etc.) in order to clear their own entirely.

Please suggest other examples/tell me why the last sentence is bad.

Rest (NO) -- The user settles down and goes to sleep in order to regain energy at a fast rate. The user will sleep for about the length of an average round, and will restore x1.5 a Hyper Beam worth of energy if able to sleep for the maximum time. The user may continue sleeping in to the next round if Rest is started late in the round or in similar circumstances. Since Rest is self-induced sleep, it is somewhat deeper than average sleep, meaning that more damage is needed to wake the user, around heavy, and only sound moves such as Uproar that specialize in waking can disturb them. Each subsequent use of Rest will restore energy less quickly than before and restore less energy overall.

Took out specific length, clarified how multiple round Rests work and just made it diminishing returns since that's basically our policy now.

Amnesia (NO) -- The user clears its mind using decent energy, forgetting the frustrations and triumphs of the battle to concentrate on other things. This mental clarity gives the user some resistance against Special Attacks, particularly mentally-affecting ones, as it is able to concentrate on defending against them, increasing Special Defense sharply. Due to the clearing of the user's mind, it is also able to clear mental blocks, mental links or other Psychic manipulations caused by moves such as Swaps, Imprison or the like.

Calm Mind (NO) -- The user meditates, using decent energy, focusing itself on its special attacks. This gives its special attack power a boost, but unlike the game, there is no increase in general special defense. However, with a calm mind in place, the user is less prone to be controlled by telepathy or any attacks which effect the mind.
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Old 11-26-2015, 09:42 AM   #64
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So for the last sentence on Psych Up, it basically says "Psych Up clears confusion but wait no it doesn't because it has to be used in conjunction with something that already clears confusion to successfully clear confusion?"

I dunno if that's what it's supposed to say but if it is that's a really strange and confusing way to put it. Might as well just replace it with "This move will not fail when a Pokemon is confused can lessen their confusion." or something similar at that point.
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Old 11-26-2015, 10:05 AM   #65
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Jeri you need to say whether it does take boosts or not goven that that is all it does in game. We need to be crystal clear.
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Old 11-26-2015, 10:08 AM   #66
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The last sentence I don't believe is needed. If you're going from a Confused state to a clear state, you shouldn't need the opponent to use Calm mind etc beforehand (because this is almost never going to happen). If its going to pick up negative mindsets with ease, it should also be able to get rid of them with ease. Just say "This will also clear mental status effects such as confusion or drowsiness with the same ease as [insert move here]" and it should be fine. imo
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Old 11-26-2015, 12:51 PM   #67
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We already have a billion other ways to clear mental status so I really support the inclusion of the last sentence. Make Psych Up what it's meant to be about, the boosts.
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Old 11-26-2015, 12:53 PM   #68
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Agree with Sneezey.
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Old 11-26-2015, 12:55 PM   #69
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Also woops. Thanks Jeri you are great!
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Old 11-27-2015, 03:34 AM   #70
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Hydro Pump (WA) -- The strongest water attack, it comes in a variety of forms. The basic premise is that the user fires out as much water as possible, from as many places as possible. Blastoise uses its cannons to fire the Hydro Pump, Squirtle and Wartortle withdraw into their shells and fire it from all points. The other water Pokémon that use Hydro Pump generally shoot the water straight out of their mouths, like other water attacks. All forms deal roughly major damage.



Okay, so not a huge thing, but the first part is demonstrably false (Hydro Cannon and Water Spout being obvious examples of more powerful Water moves).

The second highlighted part is talking exclusive to one line and needs to be a SCs thing and not take up space in the description. Citing that it originates from wherever the user generally fires Water moves from is good, but Staryu doesn't have a mouth, and Wailord should probably be able to get away with shooting it from its blowhole. In fact, earlier in the description, it says "from as many places as possible", which, while not a direct contradiction to it originating from the mouth, suggests against the presented idea in the highlighted bit where the general norm seems to imply mouth-only.

And something that bugs and really needs to be fixed as well is the "The other water Pokémon that use Hydro Pump" bit. Specifically, it talking about Water Pokemon only. I count no less than 6 fully-evolved Pokemon who have the move but are not Water-typed (Castform, Dragonite, Masquerain, Salamence, Dragalge, and Lugia). And that's not even counting sigs.



My proposed changes would be to move the Squirtle line examples to SCs, clarify that its origin(s) are whatever body part(s) the user can plausibly shoot water from, and clean up the description to just in general read better. And cut the word "water" from "The other water Pokémon that use Hydro Pump" for obvious reasons. Definitely cut out the first clause of the description because it's both fluff and entirely false.

And while looking at the move, maybe we should do something like we did with Thunder, Blizzard, and Fire Blast. Being a jet (or jets) of water under high pressure, it wouldn't make sense for it to be "slow" like Fire Blast, so I would say something akin to Blizzard's clause of "Though the attack is fast and powerful, the build-up may take some time and will leave the user a little winded immediately afterwards."


_____


On another note:

Fly (XX) -- The user flies up very high, moving at an erratic pace in an attempt to evade attacks levied against it. The user then swoops down, smacking into the victim for solid damage.

Dig (XX) -- The user digs underground and attacks the opponent from underneath shortly after. As the digger digs, the tunnel simply collapses, leaving nary a trace. If the user is not accustomed to being underground, then they must constantly move, as the ground will collapse on them if they stay still for too long, and certain Pokémon can't handle that. Digging for a short time will only use a decent amount of energy, but Pokémon not used to being underground will have their energy usage quickly rise the longer they continue to do so. Damage dealt is usually decent, but may rise or fall depending on the size and physical strength of the user.

Dive (XX) -- The user dives deep down, coming back up after several seconds to deliver a solid physical blow.


Can we please finally grant Flying-types, Ground-types, and Water-types, respectively, the ability to use these in a typed variation? Not forcing it having to be typed, but allowing them to choose to imbue them with Flying/Ground/Water energy if desired?


Proposed changes: exactly what I just said.
Also I propose either making an explicit energy increase for significant movement, such as using it to dodge, or noting that while they can be used to help dodge, that usually this will result in only a partial dodge. That should really be a feature in most, as they say, "dodge and attack" moves.


_____

And on one more note

Bite (XX) -- The R/B/Y version of the Bite attack. The user simply bites the opponent, inflicting damage depending on the Pokeémon. The average Pokeémon will deal good damage, though Pokeémon with larger or smaller mouths may deal less or more, between moderate and solid damage. Bite may cause sharp pains that may cause softer-skinned Pokeémon to flinch.

Is there any real reason for this to still be not Dark? I mean, yeah, Bite is considered an autogrant for anything with teeth, and I'm not going to say we should fuck over autogrant moves, but there are a couple options here. And it not being Dark can screw with a lot of Pokemon. Mega Gyarados has a whopping 3 Dark STAB attacks, one of which it just got in ORAS. Dark has some STAB troubles anyway, and adding in another reliable move that should be Dark anyway should only be an improvement.

Also: "Pokmon" appears four times.

So proposed changes here:
Make it Dark and just cut it from the autogrant (without cutting any of the other autogranted moves)
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Old 11-27-2015, 04:48 AM   #71
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Agree fully except that I would make Dark STAB for Bite but other stuff gets XX. In all cases STAB users can use Xx by choice.
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Old 11-27-2015, 07:02 AM   #72
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Hydro Pump (WA) -- The user shoots out a high pressure stream of water, issuing forth as much water as they possibly can as fast as they possibly can to deal major damage.

Hydro Pump is ancient, so.

Fly (XX) -- The user flies up very high, moving at an erratic pace in an attempt to evade attacks levied against it. The user then swoops down, smacking into the victim for solid damage. Flying-typed Pokémon may surround themselves in Flying energy for the duration of the move to deal a Flying-typed hit, also somewhat increasing the speed of their ascent.

Dig (XX) -- The user digs underground and attacks the opponent from underneath shortly after. As the digger digs, the tunnel simply collapses, leaving nary a trace. If the user is not accustomed to being underground, then they must constantly move, as the ground will collapse on them if they stay still for too long, and certain Pokémon can't handle that. Digging for a short time will only use a decent amount of energy, but Pokémon not used to being underground will have their energy usage quickly rise the longer they continue to do so. Damage dealt is usually decent, but may rise or fall depending on the size and physical strength of the user. Ground-typed Pokémon may cover their appendages (or whatever they use to dig) in Ground-typed energy, increasing the speed of their Dig somewhat as well as allowing them to deal a Ground-typed hit that averages solid damage instead of decent.

Dive (XX) -- The user dives deep down, coming back up after several seconds to deliver a solid physical blow. Water-typed Pokémon may surround themselves in Water energy for the duration of the move, increasing their movement speed and allowing them to deal Water-typed damage.

Bite (XX) -- The user simply bites the opponent, inflicting damage depending on the Pokémon. The average Pokémon will deal good damage, though Pokémon with larger or smaller mouths may deal less or more, between moderate and solid damage. Bite may cause sharp pains that may cause softer-skinned Pokémon to flinch. Dark-typed Pokémon may use Dark energy to augment this attack, dealing no extra damage but making it deal Dark damage.

Psych Up (NO) -- The user taps into the mind and body of a target using good energy, hypnotizing itself to take on the mental and physical state of their foe or ally, albeit artificially and incompletely. This copies any mental states - positive or negative - that the target may have. This includes happiness, rage, enthusiasm, focus, calmness, and even states such as drowsiness or confusion, among others. Additionally, any stat boosts or drops, physical or mental, are also copied, but will fade at twice the rate that a boost normally would (e.g., if a freshly used Nasty Plot was copied, it would fade to one stage after a round and a half and fade completely after 3 full rounds).
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Old 11-27-2015, 07:13 AM   #73
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Old 11-27-2015, 08:51 AM   #74
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I don't really like making Bite only able to be Dark when used by Dark-types. I don't see the point of doing that. It's not like Fly, Dig, or Dive, where the game typing ties into the medium that the move travels through. It's just a Dark move
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Old 11-27-2015, 01:27 PM   #75
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tbh, I don't see why Bite is a Dark move anyway. It's a natural attack in the same vein as Scratch or Tackle. Although equally, I agree with Dark being a bit iffy on the STABs.
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