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Old 09-04-2015, 04:47 PM   #26
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Can I clarify, at this point, what is different about this to the previous Mew thread other than the fact that Jeri posts in it?
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Old 09-04-2015, 05:00 PM   #27
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People are working constructively towards a solution and I have control over the flow of the conversation now.
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Old 09-20-2015, 11:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Triple Kick (FT) -- The user delivers three fast kicks, the first dealing mild damage and each increasing in power by a minor amount if the previous kick has hit.
Can we word this better?

Perhaps just saying that all three add up to a total of Significant damage.
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Old 09-20-2015, 11:40 PM   #29
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Not following the format of the thread, tisk tisk.

But yeah, that's fine. However, does doing that make it worth using over other moves? Is there any way we can make it a little more interesting?
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Old 09-20-2015, 11:43 PM   #30
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Three kicks means it only takes two to break QC Substitute and similar?
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Old 09-20-2015, 11:50 PM   #31
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We could just emphasize the "fast" part of the current descript, making it harder to dodge or something? Makes sense, given how incredibly fast Hitmontop is shown to spin while using the attack in the anime.

Though honestly I don't see a need to get rid of the whole scaling damage thing, nor do I see a need to nerf the power of the move from Major to Significant.
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Old 09-21-2015, 03:12 AM   #32
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We could, you know, actually make it worthwhile as Hitmontop's Signature move. Get rid of rising damage but I'll put in the new Hitmontop SC that their Rolling Kick (as well as other spinning moves) deal significantly more damage.
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Old 09-21-2015, 05:00 AM   #33
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Forgot that this place exists, here is a proposal-

Mud-Slap (XX) -- The user throws mud, or whatever available debris is around, at the target's eyes, trying to prevent them from seeing properly. This attack does moderate damage, and lowers the target's accuracy until the mud comes off.

The issues with the move: XX typing.
Spoiler: show
I don't get why does the Ground type needs any further nerfing than, well, being ground type. Is mud-slap XX type because it has huge distribution? Well in that case Toxic, Light Screen, Reflect, Rock Smash should also be XX typed.
Why am I arguing over such a trivial and weak move? Well, yeah mud-slap is shit (though still better than bulldoze, earth power, and non DC earthquake), but it is of a type which is super-effective on a very broken type, electric, and two other types that are incredibly defensively sound,
a) fire:
Spoiler: show
many arenas make most of the ground and rock type moves useless, not many pokemon get water type moves other than water types, of which most are useless outside of water, and surprisingly the arenas that fall in the above category do not tend to be very aqua friendly. Also take a look at fire's resistances, which are
Spoiler: show
Bug, Fairy, Fire, Grass, Ice and Steel.

b) steel:
Spoiler: show
same reason as fire for ground, anything that doesn't have hands rarely gets fighting type moves, which leaves only fire, and yeah again take a look at the resistances, which are
Spoiler: show
Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Grass, Ice, Normal, Psychic, Rock and Steel.

Many pokemon that have problem with these types, like bug-type and flying-type, are not physically capable enough to learn earthquake, or any other moves that are ground-type in ASB, and so they have to depend on hidden power.
Ok so let us take a look at this above mentioned move:
Spoiler: show
Hidden Power (Various) --The user's eyes glow briefly before creating a large amount of orbs which spiral around them. After a few moments, the orbs all fly towards the foe, dealing solid damage. The type of the attack is determined by the primary type of the Pokémon (Normal/X Pokémon will take their secondary typing). A Pokémon may be trained to change their Hidden Power to be any type in the Squad
Maintenance subforums. Once changed, Pokémon have the type energy for a single use of Hidden Power if they don't already have a move of that type. If they do already have a move of that type, Hidden Power counts as one more for the purposes of working out how much energy the Pokémon gets. If the Hidden Power of a Pokémon is of their secondary type, the move is treated as STAB and can be used unlimitedly. Pokémon can only be given one Hidden Power type.

So ok let's take a mothim as an example, with HP Ground. So it can only use HP Ground once because it doesn't naturally have any ground type move, despite of getting mud-slap.
Yeah I know a bad example, but there are many pokemon like this that should have a full 2 ice beam energy for their ground offtype, but can use HP Ground only once and are even more helpless against electric, fire and steel type than they should be.


The proposed changes: Ground typing.
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Old 09-21-2015, 05:42 PM   #34
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*waves the "XX has been outdated for over 10 years" banner*
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Old 09-22-2015, 12:40 AM   #35
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Yeah, getting rid of Triple Kick's scaling damage is getting rid of pretty much its only unique attribute.

If we were going to make any change to it, maybe add in that if you use it to its fullest extent of three kicks, it causes a bit of strain on the legs and/or is notably a bit more exhausting, the same kind of direction we went with the Fire Blast-like moves. Give it a consequence that doesn't outweigh its use to keep it in form and balanced. It's a cool move and let's not take that away.

Overall suggestion: keep the power it has add a clause that it causes some strain if used to its full three-kick combo, it reduces the user's mobility a bit for a short while, and/or a clause that makes it notably slightly more exhausting to use. If we do both, probably keep each effect slightly milder than if only one or the other.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:23 PM   #36
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Is there any reason to be this harsh to the move? I see no reason to nerf it and make it explicitly worse than Close Combat. I think we should trying to make it a usable move over Close Combat considering they exist pretty much in the same damage range. What that would be, I'm not really sure. It wouldn't need much to be more useful honestly but we shouldn't be nerfing this move at all.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:38 PM   #37
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It is a move which is limited to all of one Pokemon, which offers a Major level alternative to Close Combat which doesn't lower your defences.

With regards to Hitmontop it is absolutely already a more worthy move than Close Combat.
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Old 11-09-2015, 05:12 PM   #38
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Not going to go through the full process; pointing out that Amnesia lists itself as Psychic and it should be Normal.
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Old 11-11-2015, 07:07 PM   #39
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I feel like we had a reason to have it PS.
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:09 PM   #40
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It is kinda odd that it and Calm Mind are Psychic yet Nasty Plot is Normal. I'm not really fussed which direction we go but I feel all mental moves need standardized to either use type energy or be Normal.
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:13 PM   #41
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I think the main reason they're Psychic moves is because they also cure status. I seem to remember this when the rewrite party happened and they came up. Wouldn't be adverse to making them not Psychic however.
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Old 11-11-2015, 10:48 PM   #42
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That would make sense except Focus Energy is listed as Normal and that has status clear. Yes I know the move is Normal in the first place, but that really doesn't matter given so much as the fact that a mental move that clears status exists and is Normal so there's no reason to not have all the other mental moves pick a side and stick to it.
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Old 11-11-2015, 11:44 PM   #43
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Will point out that Focus Energy yields no boost if it's clearing a status, while the Psychic Mental moves do yield a boost even when clearing status. Focus Energy also has harsh diminishing returns that Calm Mind and Amnesia don't have.

So honestly I think the fact that the other two use offtype while Focus Energy doesn't is made up for by the other two being distinctly better.

Therefore, if we're gonna make them all either use offtype or not use offtype, I'd argue that either Focus Energy should be made better or the others should be made worse to further codify them, since if the descripts stay the same this would be little more than a blatant Focus Energy nerf.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:41 AM   #44
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Well it would help if people actually reffed Calm Mind and Amnesia better in relation to Focus Energy. There's supposed to be a balance between the moves and the fact that most refs allow the former two to clear even the strongest confusion with ease is a little bit breaking that balance, since that's supposed to be Focus Energy's shtick with the others being better at prevention than clearing.

But this is a conversation I've had about a thousand times now and really don't care to have again. So I'll just step away from this with a hearty "we need to actually find a working balance and be done with it" and let the LOs work it out.
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Old 11-12-2015, 02:38 AM   #45
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I can't think of a good reason to (?)

On FE, CM and Amnesia, that's mostly because we've looked at three totally unrelated moves, arbitrarily decided that they involve resetting mental conditions and made them cure ALL OF THE STATUS.

So although Sneezey isn't wrong, what we actually need to do is rewrite the three so they aren't the same. For example, ever seen anyone with dementia? Forgetting a chunk of stuff in one go does very little to cure confusion. Calm Mind yeah sure by all means. And Focus Energy kind of has no translatable use so maybe just make it so the user is resistant to stuff like Sucker Punch and Screech?
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:30 PM   #46
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I don't think we really have any reason to nerf Focus Energy. Also I see Amnesia as more as Psychically excising parts of your memory or mental state that might be distracting or harmful. It's not just "forget something random".

But yeah I'm fine with making them NO.
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Old 11-18-2015, 04:45 PM   #47
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  • The current full description or rule (if applicable), highlighting any problem areas
  • The issues with the move (in bullet points or short paragraphs)
  • The proposed changes (please do not rewrite the moves yourself)

1) Psych Up (NO) -- Using good energy, the user concentrates, and then gains the opponent's mindset. This includes happiness, battle-readiness, and attractions (The Psyched Up Pokémon will be attracted to the opponent, not itself).


2) This is the worst move description I have looked at in a long while. It is over complicated and unclear, includes a good amount of superluous information (happiness? really?), but does not actually do anything meaningful.

Although most people would interpret this as stealing stuff like Nasty Plot, they would be perfectly within their rights not to ref it like that. The move does not mention boosts at all. Is that what 'battle readiness' is? It's unclear.

Moreover, and whether this is a pro or con is a more debatable point, there is absolutely no reason to ref this taking stuff like Iron Defense or Charge Beam. I personally believe that this is a drawback. I appreciate that some have disagreed with this position in the past.

Now, I realise that it has the word 'Psych' in it but can we please stop nerfing moves like this? It's not 2011 anymore. Muyo is not in charge.


3) Remove everything that comes after the second comma of the first sentence. Replace with a clause that says "copying the target's boosts". There is no need to include any other text.

Should you consider this to be too strong, which would be a perfectly valid position, a good way to deal with it would be to say that the copied boosts are weaker/less long lasting than the original version. Alternatively, change 'good' energy to be '1.2x the cost of the boost stolen' or something similar. The way to balance this move is not to write it so it's vague and meaningless.

One additional point you may wish to add is to say that this move does not copy stuff like Confusion and Attraction. No animé evidence to say that it should do so. Japanese name in no way points to this.

Last edited by Mercutio; 11-18-2015 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:10 PM   #48
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Although I don't imagine there'd be much objection to your proposal, let the floodgates open anyway.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:28 PM   #49
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I meant to type up a counter-proposal earlier but got heavily distracted with KC.

My proposal would be to clarify the current description since it is isn't over-complicated but rather unintuitive (for example, happiness being changed to enthusiasm, battle-readiness being changed to exhaustion or fatigue), clarify that it will work on mental boosts and cure confusion very consistently. Reduce the energy needed to a moderate amount so it has some utility with boost taking, and there is a small issue with mental SC boosts like Alakazam as we already have moves for this and I don't want to overshadow those moves with this one. I don't think just flatly taking boosts will make Psych Up really usuable, you're just spending extra energy to make the match-up relatively neutral again, and there are some moves like Iron Defense or Curse that this doesn't really make sense to work on (not to mention this move could totally be interpreted as just taking the buffs and not the debuffs of said moves). I do like our current move, which has no real competition (where this one would have some competition with moves like Haze and Clear Smog and while its not direct competition, both moves are very clearly better than the suggested proposal), and given its Japanese name of Self-Suggest, which references Self-Suggestion and all the hypno/trance stuff involved with that makes a bit more sense.
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Old 11-18-2015, 10:25 PM   #50
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Alright so I'm about infinity percent not okay with Psych Up copying physical state in any way, shape, or form. It just reeks to me of a way to make it something in the vein of Power Swap and Guard Swap but with the upside of doing both and getting rid of any status you might have (yes I say any because if we're allowing change of physical state then why would we not allow this if we allow change of mental state to rid confusion et al) with the rather small downside of your foe not losing anything. It would become a 100% guaranteed way to instantly even out a matchup with no real downside, and I'm sorry I just can't support the idea of letting a single move even out what is potentially a few rounds of buffing, debuffing, and statusing. I really think we just need to clarify it's uses in its current form and go from there, if it still needs a bit of a buff it can be added to later, but I dislike the idea of making moves super overly good and then attempting to bring them down after they've been abused.

Also, side note, but every time I see someone suggest that exhaustion be a mental thing I want to slap people.
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