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Old 09-01-2015, 06:26 PM   #51
Concept
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While it's tough being the fall guy, I think setting the example that it's ok for refs to drop inactive battlers is important if we ever want reffing in the league to work properly. Battlers are happy to drop inactive refs and this needs to work both ways if refs aren't to feel like battlers have all the power - which I feel is one of the major issues. It goes hand in hand with the fact that we're a bit too lenient on DQ times.

Refs need to be able to drop slow matches without giving up all their SP.
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Old 09-02-2015, 12:01 AM   #52
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Hey Roto, you're a person who doesn't ref much that totally could. Why are you not motivated?
Lack of time. If I wasn't across the world and back twice over the summer I could've managed a few more. Now that school starts I don't want to ref too many matches and let it get out of hand
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Old 09-02-2015, 03:53 AM   #53
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That's not an argument in favour of removing caps.

That's an argument in favour of giving refs an escape claise on dead end matches as Concept says.
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Old 09-02-2015, 04:49 AM   #54
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Personally, if the battlers aren't ordering, the ref should be able to DQ the inactive battler.
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Old 09-02-2015, 05:11 AM   #55
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With the contests I am going to do that to people, regardless of the opinion of the other trainer, because it's so important that we get them through. In general there would need to be an understanding that refs don't just do it when they're bored, but it would be good t have that power.
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Old 09-02-2015, 05:57 AM   #56
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The fundamental problem is that so much of our culture is set up to be against DQing someone. Even when someone is taking a month or longer to order, only vague threats are issued. If anyone actually tries to be hard line on them, they're instantly called out.

We need to actually make DQ times relevant. Drop the facade that the DQ time is 48 or 72 hours, establish generalised weekly or fortnightly DQs. Fall outside of those times and if you're DQd you have no right to bitch. Obvious exceptions for those on TA.
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Old 09-02-2015, 06:05 AM   #57
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The problem with long DQ times is that people will make full use of them and a lot of matches will go two-three weeks a round (between two battlers and the ref) which won't really solve anything. Perhaps keep the current maximum (96 Hours iirc) but encourage use of a version of the 'Bowl exception rule - say if your DQ is X hours you can take an additional X hours a certain number of times dependent on how long the match is? Like, once for 1 or 2 mon, twice for 3 or 4 and thrice for 5 and 6?

I'm not altogether comfortable with allowing refs to enforce DQ but allow them to walk away with SP for what they've done so far if the battlers have exceeded their DQ time plus exception.
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Old 09-02-2015, 06:10 AM   #58
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Yeah ASB culture is completely against DQing or firing anyone. It's also against forfeiting. Neither is healthy.

If LOs were demonstrably going to enforce rules like "I would like to drop reffing this match for this justifiable reason may I please have some SP" then it would probably work because you'd prevent abuse of the system.

Last edited by Mercutio; 09-02-2015 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 09-02-2015, 06:22 AM   #59
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I would be all for referees being able to claim the SP they had earned within matches while still dropping them. Comes off as immediately selfish but I feel like matches clogging referee slots for so long is a genuine problem.
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Old 09-02-2015, 06:24 AM   #60
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It is a more sustainable answer to the problem than removing the ref caps and it has the side effect of empowering refs.
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Old 09-02-2015, 06:54 AM   #61
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So I spitballed some ideas yesterday and have now actually read through the thread and slept on it. Proposals ahoy! The general thrust of it is that reffing should be treated more like battling - currently battlers have all the power (to DQ, replace refs, challenge reffings etc) and all the incentives (new TL for more pokemon access and ability to do legend matches, going for GL, etc). We don't have much issue with battler motivation, so bring reffing more into line with battling and we can fix a lot of this issue.
  • A challenge system like tennis. Each battler gets 1 challenge to a reffing for a 1 or 2 mon match, two for a three or four mon match and three for a five or six mon match. Passive-aggressive comments like "oh I thought X would do Y. *Orders*" count as a challenge. This normalises that hey, occasionally refs get stuff wrong and that's ok and we have a system for dealing with it while also seriously curbing how often refs get challenged. The amount of times and manner in which people challenge reffings is probably the single biggest disincentive right now.
  • Let refs walk away with their SP if the battlers are slow. Stricter DQ times mitigated by a Bowl-style exception system (miss the DQ time by X amount Y times per match is ok), let refs walk away if people miss this. Battlers can replace slow refs, let refs replace slow reffing slots. On a related note we should be willing to fire slow GLs to stop inactive GLs occupying gyms that active trainers could be striving for.
  • Reduce the entry barrier for refs by wriitng a Reffing 101. Consult with fairly new refs (6 months to a year) on things they wish they'd known starting out. Get some of our better non-LO refs to help write it so it actually happens.
  • Coaching. Explicitly invite say half a dozen of the better non-LO refs to do ref coaching, that thread was a great idea but the execution was eh.
  • More frequent evaluations. People put in effort to battling quick when they smell a new TL and the same is often true around evals time for better grades. A grade refs are perfectly capable of helping run the evals, which makes it easier to make them actually happen.
  • Similarly A grades are probably capable of doing ref tests if supervised initially. Ref school can be slow as balls, this speeds it up.
  • Letting A grades ref GMs was a great idea and we need more of the same. Make sure to spread legend matches and contest judging out to our better refs. Not only does this provide an analogous incentive to battlers striving for GL and badges, it also makes contests and legend matches more likely to move by not relying on LOs who already have a lot of other stuff on their plates. Have a separate ref queue for extraordinary stuff (contest judging/reffing, legend matches, etc) that only B grades and higher can take from (GMs are super complicated and should stay at A grade only, which also helps differentiate B and A).

Feedback welcomed!
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:25 AM   #62
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The penultimate point is especially good but I agree with much of that.
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:32 AM   #63
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I've read most of this by now but I like to see concrete suggestions so Concept gets my replies. Thanks Concept!

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  • A challenge system like tennis. Each battler gets 1 challenge to a reffing for a 1 or 2 mon match, two for a three or four mon match and three for a five or six mon match. Passive-aggressive comments like "oh I thought X would do Y. *Orders*" count as a challenge. This normalises that hey, occasionally refs get stuff wrong and that's ok and we have a system for dealing with it while also seriously curbing how often refs get challenged. The amount of times and manner in which people challenge reffings is probably the single biggest disincentive right now.
  • I'm fine with this, though I think we need to still let people ask questions. Sometimes the ref is just wrong and a question is the nicest/easiest way for you to give them an opportunity to check their work. If you don't like the answer, then you can use a challenge.
    Quote:
  • Let refs walk away with their SP if the battlers are slow. Stricter DQ times mitigated by a Bowl-style exception system (miss the DQ time by X amount Y times per match is ok), let refs walk away if people miss this. Battlers can replace slow refs, let refs replace slow reffing slots. On a related note we should be willing to fire slow GLs to stop inactive GLs occupying gyms that active trainers could be striving for.
  • I'm fine with this. We should probably give some reason to DQ because most people just wait it out considering oftentimes it's more of a pain to start a new battle than it is to stick with an existing one. Suggestions there would be good.

    GLs that don't have at least one battle moving or that have been DQ'd more than once in a given period should probably be put in on the chopping block.

    Quote:
  • Reduce the entry barrier for refs by wriitng a Reffing 101. Consult with fairly new refs (6 months to a year) on things they wish they'd known starting out. Get some of our better non-LO refs to help write it so it actually happens.
  • I think this is one thing that would be a perfect community project that would need minimal LO input aside from revision and whatever they want to input themselves. I'll discuss this more at length and see how we want to execute this.
    Quote:
  • Coaching. Explicitly invite say half a dozen of the better non-LO refs to do ref coaching, that thread was a great idea but the execution was eh.
  • Okay. I always think people who are already approved should coach more.
    Quote:
  • More frequent evaluations. People put in effort to battling quick when they smell a new TL and the same is often true around evals time for better grades. A grade refs are perfectly capable of helping run the evals, which makes it easier to make them actually happen.
  • Part of the reason why evals haven't happened as regularly as they should is that the process has required multiple LO powwows which are always hard to organize. And if we want to do them right, we have to go through a lot of information on each ref to get a good impression. Perhaps we need to restructure them a little somehow?
    Quote:
  • Similarly A grades are probably capable of doing ref tests if supervised initially. Ref school can be slow as balls, this speeds it up.
  • I'd be fine with deputizing a few A grades to do this.
    Quote:
  • Letting A grades ref GMs was a great idea and we need more of the same. Make sure to spread legend matches and contest judging out to our better refs. Not only does this provide an analogous incentive to battlers striving for GL and badges, it also makes contests and legend matches more likely to move by not relying on LOs who already have a lot of other stuff on their plates. Have a separate ref queue for extraordinary stuff (contest judging/reffing, legend matches, etc) that only B grades and higher can take from (GMs are super complicated and should stay at A grade only, which also helps differentiate B and A).
This is something we've been working on, especially considering I'm not always around/the most reliable, Dave's been MIA ASB-wise, and Connor has plenty to ref as it is. I'll push for this in the future.
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:46 AM   #64
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On the evaluations front, we always did it by sitting down and hashing the whole thing out in skype or msn. Maybe just set up a couple of google docs that all the LOs and A grades have access to? In one dump all incoming PM suggestions and in the other have proposed grade changes with comments etc. Set a deadline of say two weeks and then just have one of you/Connor/Dave make a judgement call on any remaining disagreements and post it whenever one of you gets a chance. It avoids having to sit down and get everyone together to do the whole thing at once, and if that helps them be done more frequently then it matters less if the final judgement calls on small disagreements aren't perfect because they can always be fixed a few months down the line.
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:51 AM   #65
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I don't mean to be rude and do believe opening the floor to A rank referees is a good suggestion in principle, but can you honestly and without doubt say that it will create a system any more reliable than what is currently happening? Referee Tests are being handled fairly regularly right now ignoring one or two small blips, and I'm starting to take general control of the initial approval stage.
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:52 AM   #66
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Specifically making it A grades will obviously never work, but the idea of getting reliably useful refs to help is a good one.
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:54 AM   #67
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The A grade system only really works if we are actually more lenient on who gets an A grade. At the moment we have barely any.
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:57 AM   #68
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No I can't, but as long as they're consistent it can't make anything worse can it? The main qualification for being a ref tester is pretty much "hey who knows reffing", which non-LO A grades do. This isn't attacking you and Dave at all. I'm just saying that there's no real way adding a couple of testers could slow things down or otherwise break it, and by a similar argument to ref caps it reduces the impact of one tester being unavailable for whatever reason. *Shrug*. Trust me as someone who's been a much slower ref tester than either of you I am not judging you guys!

>Emi

Eh not really. I mean there are always going to be substantially more B's and C's than A's and D's and 5 A grades out of what, 30 active refs is a decent proportion. This wasn't an "OMG must make a massive drive for much faster testing" more just a "hey A grades have all the qualifications we look for in ref testers, letting them do it as well can't hurt anything and makes the occasional absence of one tester or another less of a big deal".
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:58 AM   #69
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Also there are probably one or two LOs who do not actually ref enough to be good ref testers.
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:59 AM   #70
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So should we set up a list of 'certified referees' who we open the floor to when it comes to evaluations and such like? With regards to leniency, I feel like if we allow for too many people to become involved in things like evaluations and referee tests that it will quickly become an issue of too many cooks in the kitchen. It can be difficult enough to agree on things with small parties as it stands, never mind adding other opinions to the case.

Must stress that I don't necessarily disagree with what is being proposed, since I actually like a lot of what Concept put forwards. I just feel that while it is nice in principle it will probably be shaky in practice.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:01 AM   #71
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It's not really that too few people are A grades. It's that the wrong people are A grades (more specifically they are allowed to remain A grades long after they deserve it) and has been that way since well before I joined.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:04 AM   #72
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So I don't know how you and Dave organise ref tests these days but I was more thinking that once you've made sure they know what they're doing you can just let people get on with testing without needing to have several people weigh in on each test. Like keep a google doc of who needs sending a test and whose test needs grading. Whenever one of you gets a chance, grab a couple and do em. No need for a group powwow over every test, one person can do a test. Dave and I put our heads together initially purely because we were both new at testing.

On the evals front, there were four of us doing the last one and we did fine. I don't see five or six being a big issue (which is how many A grades and ref LOs we're ever likely to have at one time). Google docs removes the issue of having to co-ordinate a time where everyone can sit down together.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:04 AM   #73
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>Emi

Eh not really. I mean there are always going to be substantially more B's and C's than A's and D's and 5 A grades out of what, 30 active refs is a decent proportion. This wasn't an "OMG must make a massive drive for much faster testing" more just a "hey A grades have all the qualifications we look for in ref testers, letting them do it as well can't hurt anything and makes the occasional absence of one tester or another less of a big deal".
Yes and 3 of our A grades are LOs. It doesn't change much. There are some perfectly capable B-refs like myself who could handle it. Changing it to A-Grade refs doesn't change any of the status quo really.
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:04 AM   #74
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I've read most of this by now but I like to see concrete suggestions so Concept gets my replies. Thanks Concept!
Just to clarify, you do appreciate the spectacular irony of this, yes?
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Old 09-02-2015, 08:10 AM   #75
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Yes and 3 of our A grades are LOs. It doesn't change much. There are some perfectly capable B-refs like myself who could handle it. Changing it to A-Grade refs doesn't change any of the status quo really.
I wasn't looking to change much, just add a couple of extra hands on deck so its less of a big issue if one or two of them are currently unavailable. To do ref testing you need to know reffing through and through no issues and if you do then you're an A grade. If you're not an A grade then by definition it was decided that you don't (side note; we did discuss making you an A grade so I wouldn't be entirely surprised if you got one at the next evals, albeit I've not looked at your reffings recently so I don't personally know how you are these days).
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