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Old 08-31-2015, 09:07 PM   #26
biggggg5
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I feel teaching more before we give out the ref test could help as well. Right now we are expected to teach ourselves almost by reading other reffings, but we have no idea what happens on the ref's side of things: how they keep track of health and energy, exactly how much math is used and on what, how much to alter damage for partials and other stuff like that. Grades really need to be based on speed and how fancy you give out your reffing, there should never be much of a question as to what exactly happens in a match unless it is up to ref's interpretation
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Old 08-31-2015, 09:16 PM   #27
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That actually alleviated some of my other concerns on the subject as well so very good, that's fair

Anyhow, it should also be made clear that you don't necessarily have to be a Cibbir-grade novelist all of the time (if you want to be, more power to you). I know the feeling, it's a common occurrence I role plays when someone is just that much better with it than you are, it makes one feel like they need more than they feel they can provide. I'm not saying that ALCAPS should be a frequent thing (back in my day I tried to limit it to once per match myself, and only if my bonus was in jeopardy and the results of the round could be reasonably foreseen by the battlers (ie something that was in critical gets KOd, which happened in like Spark vs Cele I think. Had to do with a Teddiursa)), but it should not seem like one's work is inadequate if they're putting honest effort in. I'm not telling the novelists to tone it down but we should be reassuring and try to repel that inferiority complex.
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Old 08-31-2015, 10:09 PM   #28
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  • Shift the Weekly Bonus to x1.5 SP for those referees who are at neutral or above speed grades.
This would work quite well to prevent Refs from becoming discouraged once they miss the 48hr mark. More uses for SP other than buying squad slots, Holiday Tokens, and Legend Challenges would probably help too, but that's an Economics question. Frankly, I really think all the current Holiday Tokens shouldn't have a limited distribution: if all of those were available at all times of the year, people would ref more. That's a fact. Waiting around for UPN Day is often a stinker.
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Old 09-01-2015, 04:23 AM   #29
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I have submitted a response but the top lines are that ASB is all about instant gratification, sustained bullying and weak leadership. There's no real reason to ref.

Also get your own post icon.
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:28 AM   #30
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Just a minor gripe with Snorby's thing:

I am probably not the only one who puts context-less questions in Q/A or S/I because I had something that popped in my head and wanted an answer (see: Rotom sizes). Obviously no one wants poeple slipping in ref test answers but I think that requiring link will make a few problems
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Old 09-01-2015, 07:15 AM   #31
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Just a minor gripe with Snorby's thing:

I am probably not the only one who puts context-less questions in Q/A or S/I because I had something that popped in my head and wanted an answer (see: Rotom sizes). Obviously no one wants poeple slipping in ref test answers but I think that requiring link will make a few problems
Not every post in S/I would need a link- just ones about ongoing matches. So if you want to ask about Rotom sizes you just go to S/I and ask about Rotom sizes.

Besides, generally it's not at all hard to tell whether or not something is related to a specific match and more context might be useful. If you're being asked how big a Rotom-Cut should be, you can answer that flat out. If you're being asked if Rotom-Cut is sufficiently smaller than Excadrill that it could be successfully paralyzed by Body Slam, for example, that is almost certainly a battle related question that needs a link.
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Old 09-01-2015, 07:25 AM   #32
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The rotom example was from when I was a newbie and was wondering whether we followed borked dex measurements or realistic measurements per appliance. My main point is that if I still want opinion of non-LO refs for a question I had that is unrelated to a battle I should be able to do so.
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Old 09-01-2015, 07:31 AM   #33
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>Roto

I don't think anyone has a problem with questions of that kind. The problem comes when battlers try to go behind their referees back. Links wouldn't be absolutely mandatory in S/I or Q/A because that's not realistic and nobody should be telling themselves it is.

Alright so some suggestions which have come from the questionnaire.

- Remove Referee cap. Suggested that problem is more our good referees being limited on slots than anything else.
- Factor in reliability for the speed grades. This will require more frequent evaluations again, but is something worthwhile.
- Reshuffle bonuses to work within match ups. So if you referee the first match up within the 48 hours, but the next within a week, you get 2 SP for the first and 1.25 for the second.
- Following that, introduce a new checkpoint. x2 bonus for 48, x1.75 for 96 hours, x1.5 weekly, x1.25 fortnightly, and beyond that just a solid flat x1. (Personally feel this somewhat devalues x2).
- Using new checkpoints, refreshing bonus only knocks you up two stages. Limited to 1 for 2 vs. 2, 2 for 4 vs. 4, 3 for 6 vs. 6
- Fifth battle slot remaining open for those who referee 5 matches minimum? That way if they use all their standard slots they are at least refereeing the same number of matches that they are participating in.
- Create a separate thread for in battle questions? I feel this could possibly lead to the same negative feeling spilling out but if we are mature about it and lay down regulating rules then it could work.


With regards to teaching new referees, what do you propose? On one hand I see the value of such a system but on the other hand bottle necking the number of new referees we have by spending ages teaching them (and bluntly, you will never learn enough to be able to tackle every single question without experience) is probably not sustainable. It's also questionable how to make a system like that work. Do we just give them more reading material? Hands on teaching? If so, who would teach? B grades and above?

With regards to punishment, how do we make it work without making people feel they are being targeted? If we're all to be honest here, there is a culture of disrespect but also a culture of bullying. Should we also punish members who are constantly whaling on members? I don't mean to me, everyone knows that's in jest, but it has to be said that it sets something of a precedent. If we're going to crack down on disrespect to referees I feel it is an pointless undertaking if we're not also going to balance that by cracking down on general member disrespect. Before I get anyone shouting out against this, you know who I mean and you know it is a problem.
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Old 09-01-2015, 11:13 AM   #34
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If you are cracking down just on referee disrespect and not member disrespect that's incredibly idiotic, and honestly there isn't a disciplinary system that isn't incredibly rigid that doesn't make a person want to feel targeted. People twist things around so the victim becomes the aggressor. It's going to be up to the person handing down the punishment to ultimately make the call, and we should probably strive to make sure the person doing it is not an idiot honestly. Now that ASB is (extremely) slowly coming to recognize that its culture is not healthy, we need to actually put some meaning behind our words.
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:00 PM   #35
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Well yes thank you for saying what I was saying. I was just making a point that many of the members who are complaining about disrespect are the people who are a part of the bullying I was mentioning.
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:03 PM   #36
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Helpful hypocrites are still helpful. Like if I need to be given a swift slap across the face at some point I have no issues with it being from a system I created.
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:08 PM   #37
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Hey Roto, you're a person who doesn't ref much that totally could. Why are you not motivated?
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:12 PM   #38
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I was just making sure everyone was aware that it goes both ways. If we're going to begin seriously incorporating discipline into ASB then we need to address the rampant and bluntly almost traditional bully culture.

I am glad we are actually on the same page.
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:30 PM   #39
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Ref caps should be maintained. You can stretch them up a bit certainly, and there should very much be be minimum caps for A grades, but if you kill them off you will inevitably see ref burnout once again. It happens every single time and everybody who has been here long enough knows that even if they pretend otherwise. Moreover, if more people can soak up all the choice matches, fewer people have the chance to ref the matches they want. Killing off ref caps of will lead directly to there being fewer refs.


Disrespect between members is less important than bullying. But it's much more prevalent. The two are clearly related and have some overlap, as well as being related to ref problems. But disrespect requires a conscious drive from all of us, as well as some actual effort from the LOs. I don't know if we have it in us. Emi literally calling "idiocy" in the same breath as calling for more respect is a perfect example of this. I think Emi is a good enough person to stop using a particular insult if another person asked them not to, just as most people would stop making jokes about rape if someone made it clear that it had an effect on them, but when it was stated that there was a bad feeling about all the child molestation jokes made in TO several people immediately started doing them again. Mozz should have been banned on the spot for his actions, but we don't have LOs that will do that and we don't have a culture that really cares.

Are we going to move to a situation where trainers are respectful to each other and don't bitch about each other on Skype? Are we going to move to a situation where people either ref weekly, without fail, or apologise to the battlers and actively secure them another ref immediately? Are we going to see people actually post orders within DQ time every time and not act affronted when called out for being on Skype or complaining about being bored in TO? Are you, reading this, going to do that? Are you LOs reading this going to actually do anything about it, really, a week from now when we've stopped talking about this issue?

Really?

I don't think it will happen. But I'll actively participate in any efforts to make it happen.
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:38 PM   #40
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Most of the onus with your problems surely falls onto the members, Kush. There is only so far we LOs can take discipline. We can interject when things get nasty, we can suggest people replace referees, we can try and put in place measures for when people don't order within DQ times (am personally considering seeing about implementing a strike system for GLs who do this). That's the extent though. If the members aren't on board there is only so far we can take it without people complaining.

I mean every time I've tried to make any sort of a discipline drive on Skype telling people what they do is unacceptable, I'm met with a chorus of members telling me I'm the fun police.
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:50 PM   #41
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If you can't control Skype why have it as an official method of communication. The point of it being an official method is so people can interact easier but if it isn't enforced there is really no reason to have it officially anymore due to what you said above with it being unable to be maintained
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Old 09-01-2015, 12:56 PM   #42
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Skype is 100% totally informal and not official. We've made a good point of this because of rulings from Skype that people have tried to use. It's basically just a large chat room with all the issues and struggles that come with it. But that still doesn't excuse people's behaviors in it.
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Old 09-01-2015, 01:16 PM   #43
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Largely, yes. Our members need to put in the work. They also need to have community leaders like GLs and veterans that aren't dropping the ball, but yes you are right.

BUT...

This is not an attack on any particular LO:

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Aside from on the foundational procedures like sigs and ref tests, and that's questionable, not everyone respects or listens to the LOs. They don't do a great job collectively.

That's not entirely the fault of the LOs. People have jobs, people have education, people don't want to make hard decisions about something they came in to for fun and don't get paid for. Fine. ASBers are largely teenagers on the internet with all the baggage that comes with that. Fine.

But, before today, when Jeri made a minor intervention on a side topic, the last LO to post in Move Rewrites was you, a week and a half ago. In the mean time we've had heated discussions on several move rewrites, a few bitching sessions on Skype, and I know for a fact that multiple LOs have been around to step in. They could have released all of the pressure quickly and calmly without telling anyone off. It's even longer for S/I. That's pretty damning.

One LO recently told me that they had killed off notifications on the main Skype chat. A minor thing, but not really ok, given what we're talking about here. How many LOs frequently look in to battle threads or TO and subsequently send someone a quiet PM asking them not to be so abrasive, or to be more respectful, or ref more/better? How many LOs ref their fair share, post in both TOs trying to make sure conversations are positive and pleasant, or post in the LO subforum raising a disciplinary issue that needs to be dealt with? How many LOs even look in to this subforum, given the total lack of posts from several of them? I'd wager the answer to these rhetoricals is a little embarrassing considering how many LOs we have. Maybe I'm wrong on that score. But I'm doubtful.

The point of this little aside being that we would probably listen to you if we thought you were relevant. But, we don't, because we've gotten used to you not doing much on discipline or culture. There's no bite there. There's less of a sense that concerns are listened to than there used to be. There's very little mod activity where there probably should be. Most of ASB has been fixed and alright fine a lot of rewrites are hashed out in Skype, so that's natural and in some ways a good thing, but if we don't think you guys are going to take any real action to lead the way and don't think there's a tangible drawback to crossing you, we won't care about your efforts. It took a huge build up of pressure and bullying of an infamous member to take the eventually questionable decision to ban them. It's now a running joke that they just created an alt account and continued playing, but it's also a running joke that the LOs will never do anything about it or the other alts people know about.


This is not an attack on any LO, it's just the facts of that aspect of the problem as I see them. The LOs have limited power on this issue, but they actively seek to weaken themselves in the ways outlined above, which isn't helpful.
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:14 PM   #44
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Disclaimer; I haven't read through the rest of this thread and am also not nearly as in touch with ASB as I once was. The summary version of this long post is in my experience the times I was super motivated to ref and did it quickly weren't about SP incentives or being penalised if I didn't, they were the times I was genuinely enjoying it. ASB is a game. Fun is our ultimate goal and that has to go for the reffing part as much as it does for the battling part.

First off, there are going to be troughs and peaks in ref availability and motivation. The vast majority of the league is in some form of education which means that certain times of the year (exam season, start of the academic year) are just going to be worse than others. Not much we can do about that. Public perception is I feel the main issue with reffing motivation. Reffing can be as much fun as battling. I've really enjoyed reffing a few cracking matches and did it efficiently when I did so despite being one of the most notoriously unreliable refs around. Dave was just talking in TO about how he reffed so much back in the day because of how much he enjoyed it. The fact that we've had successful GM's with all the benefits they've bought - something that a few years ago I never thought I'd see - is down in a large part fo how much Kuno loves reffing. The issue is most people don't see it that way. We gripe about "crap I have to ref this".

I think a big part of this is how one-sided the ref-battler relationship is. We're much more lenient on people missing DQ times than waiting for ages on refs - that is, much more wiling to replace a ref than DQ. If a ref is being slow battlers can chase them up, but refs chasing up tardy battlers almost isn't a thing. Battlers challenge refs excessively - and I'll stand up and say that back around the time I first became an LO and GL I set a very bad example on this front - and there's no traffic the other way. Our culture empowers battlers much more than refs which in turn makes it much more fun to be the former. Battling and reffing are two equally important pillars of ASB and we should strive to make sure they're both as enjoyable as the other.

The other main issue in my view is that reffing has a higher entry barrier than battling. Whilst the league is unique in many ways the basic elements of pokemon tactics - type advantage, status, etc - translate over from the games which we're all familiar with. Reffing is entirely novel to new faces. I know that Jeri, Kush, Dave and I talked abouit writing a "Battling 101" and "Reffing 101" around the time I did the Getting Started thread but lack of motivation and a laundry list of other priorities won out. Reffing 101 would make it much easier for new refs to get started. The coaching program is a step in the right direction but it needs more of a concerted drive to get it going, lead by the goldnbolds and our other A grade refs in Slash and Sneaze, plus some of our better B grades like Emi. Refs need to feel more self-confident. That way they'll enjoy it much more and be much more motivated to do it.

Spitballing potential ways to address these issues:
  • A challenge system like tennis where each battler has a certain limited number of challenges to reffings, maybe dependent on match size. Reduces the burden of being constantly second guessed.
  • LOs need to be more vocal and open about backing up refs discretion when stuff gets challenged.
  • Reffing 101. Consult with newers refs (anyone graded in the last year or so), find out things they wish they'd known starting out. Get some of our stronger non-LO refs like Slash, Sneaze and Emi to help out writing it.
  • A real push on the coaching front. Stuff often sits in that thread for too long. Connor, Dave and Jeri can lead be example here but again this is something where we want to explicitly invite say half a dozen of our best non-LO refs to help out.
  • Slightly stricter DQ times so there's less of a double standard between battling and reffing. This is one where the goldnbolds and a few other senior members of the community - our GL team mostly - need to lead by example by ordering on time and being more willing to DQ. If that means kicking some GLs who battle like me with orders every month from their gyms, so be it.
  • Some sort of system whereby refs can walk away with some SP if battlers are being consistently slow and refusing to DQ each other. Doesn't need to be too specific - we're not explicit on the cut-off for replacing a slow ref, I think we can rely on community balance in the same vein here if the LOs make a point of getting some of our more active refs together and getting them to start setting the example. Let people walk away with SP as if the match had finished at the point they stopped reffing at so long as the battlers are being slow. Helps alleviate the issue of peoples ref caps being tied up in slow matches. LOs must be willing to step in if people start abusing it, at the LOs discrection.
  • Refs should be more willing to chase up slow battlers - again lead by example. I know Connor is good at this.
  • Allowing A grades to ref GMs was a great idea and more benefits in this vein would be great. Make sure to spread legend match reffings around outside of the LO circle. Invite higher grade non-LO refs to judge on contests, that kind of thing. Not only does getting these cool jobs provide motivation for refs it also frees up LO time to focus on rulings, game design and community moderation.
  • A grade refs know their stuff well enough to do some of the work on ref evaluations. No need to keep that to goldnbolds. Makes it easier to keep them regular. I would consider it worth allowing A grade refs to conduct ref tests as well, so long as they get shown how to do it before they start and are supervised initially.
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:38 PM   #45
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Like Concept said there are a few things we can do to teach new refs but we will likely have to try a few different things to see exactly what will work. In wild future we have the coaching ting and i feel like something like that would work. We can have a slightly easier initial test, then have something like the actual test where the new ref has to ref a few rounds, but some from one battle instead many different battles so they can learn how to keep track or things like health, energy, boosts, and fatigue, and the coach or whatever will be available to answer all questions no matter how obvious. It would be a bit of a process and might bottleneck a little but it will improve a lot of experiences for both the refs and the battlers they ref for. then when the coach feels like the new ref can do things on their own they give the actual test that is like our own and we grade then. Also having more resources to read for refs behind the scenes like how to keep track of energy and health and boosts and make that a section on the site. There might be kinks that need to be worked out but that is a good place to start with i think.
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:52 PM   #46
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Those of you wishing to discuss the state of the community can go here to do so! Let's keep this restricted to reffing.
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Old 09-01-2015, 05:54 PM   #47
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In addition to Reffing 101, I'd like to present a little idea that's inspired by my four times at CHWC. Perhaps as a section of 101, have "Let's Say..." as a guide that answers questions on scenarios that newer refs often find confusing/what to do in given situations of errors.
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Old 09-01-2015, 06:04 PM   #48
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- Remove Referee cap. Suggested that problem is more our good referees being limited on slots than anything else.
Oh dear god no please. I get it, it sucks when our best refs are out of slots or having them held up by people who don't order when you need a match reffed, and it sucks for the refs themselves to be at their cap with matches that don't move when they want to contribute and get their SP. I've been in both those positions a bunch, trust me. But that doesn't mean we should let people ref however much they want, because first off:

-Think about how badly ASB shut down with Connor going on TA. Barely anything moved at all the entire time. Now imagine if Connor reffed beyond his cap and just how badly it would have stalled if Connor wasn't limited in some small way by ref caps. Sure, we have other refs, but both Miror and Josh- good refs who seem to enjoy reffing and would be likely to take more matches than their cap- have posted a TA or two recently. Schaden refs a ton of matches and he has the 7th most TAs on UPN! We'd be having whole sections of ASB shut down whenever one of our like 5 referees leaves for a vacation/gets sick/gets extra hours at work/has a shitload of homework. That isn't a nice thought.

-On top of that, there's the possibility that in all likelihood would come to fruition, like Kush said, of our best refs getting burned out quickly, and then we fall into a massive lull when the people we've been relying on so heavily stop reffing. The past has shown that you can't expect people to ref a million matches consistently and quickly forever.

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- Factor in reliability for the speed grades. This will require more frequent evaluations again, but is something worthwhile.
I was under the impression we already did this, but yeah I do think that's a good idea. I'm sorry but people should not get + ratings if they're posting TAs every 20 minutes and through that always keep their 48 hour bonus but in reality only ref 1-2 a week at best.

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- Reshuffle bonuses to work within match ups. So if you referee the first match up within the 48 hours, but the next within a week, you get 2 SP for the first and 1.25 for the second.
Yes please! This is basically a better way to do what I thought of last night. With this, if somebody misses a bonus they have reason to try and be fast later on in the match.

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- Following that, introduce a new checkpoint. x2 bonus for 48, x1.75 for 96 hours, x1.5 weekly, x1.25 fortnightly, and beyond that just a solid flat x1. (Personally feel this somewhat devalues x2).
This could work, but honestly it might be better if you omit the x1.75 completely and have x2 for 48, x1.5 for weekly, x1.25 for fortnightly. Like you said, x1.75 for 96 arguably devalues the 48 hour bonus noticeably.

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- Using new checkpoints, refreshing bonus only knocks you up two stages. Limited to 1 for 2 vs. 2, 2 for 4 vs. 4, 3 for 6 vs. 6
Limited to 1 stage or 1 refresh? 'Cause I for one think it'd be nice if for longer matches had more chances to refresh.

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Originally Posted by Connor View Post
- Fifth battle slot remaining open for those who referee 5 matches minimum? That way if they use all their standard slots they are at least refereeing the same number of matches that they are participating in.
Perhaps something like the WF point system could work? Implement into the battle results form a tally for matches reffed, then for every five matches you have reffed you can have 1 match in your 5th slot?

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- Create a separate thread for in battle questions? I feel this could possibly lead to the same negative feeling spilling out but if we are mature about it and lay down regulating rules then it could work.
Ehh, I'm sorta iffy on this one. I feel like it would quickly turn into people getting upset again, only instead of at their battlers at the community as a whole for not backing them up on their reffing. That's not a happy thought.

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With regards to punishment, how do we make it work without making people feel they are being targeted? If we're all to be honest here, there is a culture of disrespect but also a culture of bullying. Should we also punish members who are constantly whaling on members? I don't mean to me, everyone knows that's in jest, but it has to be said that it sets something of a precedent. If we're going to crack down on disrespect to referees I feel it is an pointless undertaking if we're not also going to balance that by cracking down on general member disrespect. Before I get anyone shouting out against this, you know who I mean and you know it is a problem.
Honestly I do not think this is the time or the place for this discussion. Don't get me wrong, I am by no means saying this isn't an important topic- it's very important and we need to discuss it. Just not here and not now. This is about how to get ref morale and motivation up, yet the conversation here is slowly but surely getting derailed into being purely about how, if at all, we can handle general member disrespect, and then derailed further by what the LOs as a whole need to shape up on. This kind of stuff is better suited to Jeri's thread on SPPf, so I think we should all go there for this, lest we get completely sidetracked from the matter at hand- referees.

Edit: Oh, Jeri beat me to the last part :p
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Old 09-01-2015, 06:07 PM   #49
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With regards to the referee caps, while I fully understand the reasoning behind your opposition, I am currently limited to what is essentially 8 or so as my cap because of matches bogging down my total numbers due to battlers not ordering. That's not really acceptable, yet if I drop these matches I'm called out on for 'adding to the problem' and 'creating more backlog'. It gets frustrating after a while.
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Old 09-01-2015, 06:10 PM   #50
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If you're dropping inactive matches in exchange for picking up different matches that will be active you certainly aren't adding to the problem and it's ridiculous for people to propagate that you are. So, my advice there is something along the lines of "Ignore them and do what needs to be done" :p
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