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Old 08-29-2015, 10:46 AM   #2026
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I know I'm going to sound like Tdos but I think for the most part we've long since moved from "fixing actually broken things" to "griping about stuff that mildly annoys individual people". Magic Room is fine. If particularly vulnerable gyms want to shove in a "no magic room" clause a la every psychic gyms "perma miracle eye" thing then no-one is stopping them.
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Old 08-29-2015, 11:06 AM   #2027
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Does this mean I can't bring up dodge and strike moves for being overly silly? I guess not.
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Old 08-29-2015, 11:24 AM   #2028
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Old 08-29-2015, 03:37 PM   #2029
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Inventive =/= good.

It's crap, it causes only problems for no benefits. Eradicating the arena is not beneficial to diversity, doing major harm to some of the crappier types while having no effect on most of the good ones. This is particularly important as a lot of the time the only way to make use of some of the crappier Pokémon that people like is to write arenas that benefit them - see Grass types in a rain forest or Rock types in a cave. And the argument that GLs can just put in a quick clause to avoid the problem merely reinforces my point given that we should be aiming for less special exceptions in gyms, not more. Items are also now common enough that they are relevant.

Dodge and strike moves are fine in terns of descriptions, people just ref them working perfectly too readily.

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Old 08-29-2015, 04:10 PM   #2030
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A proposal for a more benefitial and less problematic Magic Room, why not make it something like natural gift, but in an inverse way? Like in Natural Gift, the type of the attack depends on environment, Magic Room
can change the environment or atmosphere slightly to benefit the user depending on its type. For example, if a fire type uses magic Room, make it create sunny day even indoors, for a dark type pitch black night, for fairy type remove any crowd disturbance and cast fairy terrain, for grass type grassy terrain or Rototiller, and so on.

As for dodge and strike moves, do they count as two moves in one or as a single moves?

Last edited by TalkSick; 08-29-2015 at 10:04 PM.
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:30 PM   #2031
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They count as one move.

As for Magic Room, I think I've said this before but I like our version the way it is and honestly think simply adding "This move may not be used in Gym Matches" to the end would fix the problem with it quite nicely. Why rewrite something to be a completely different move than what it currently is when there'd be no serious issue if we added one tiny clause to the end of the current version?

Also, items really aren't all that common at all outside of Mega Stones which usually aren't affected by these kind of moves anyway.
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Old 08-29-2015, 10:42 PM   #2032
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I feel introducing the multiple magic moves in ASB has done a lot more to kill diversity and the impact of arenas than Magic Room could ever do.
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Old 08-29-2015, 11:24 PM   #2033
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Why should you even wanna use magic room outside of a gym battle or a tourny match?
In any normal match, as I have seen, the challenger either states the arena or lets acceptor or referee choose it.

Let us look at the different scenarios for both the challenger and acceptor:

As a challenger:
1. You as the challenger choose the arena for the match. In this situation, there is no reason to use magic room, you yourself chose the arena.
2. You let the acceptor choose the arena. In this case, if you use magic room, you are just being a bad sport, either you should have chosen the arena yourself, it is you who let the acceptor choose so deal with it.
3. Referee chooses the arena. Well the referee is not going to choose an arena that is biased towards one player's squad, if he does, you can just kindly ask him to select a different one. Anyway both the players get to look at the arena before posting their six.

As the Acceptor:
1. The challenger has already decided on the arena. In this case, you know very well where the match will take place if you accept the challenge. There is no reason to use magic room, cause you know, no one forced you into the match, you accepted the challenge, don't be a bad sport.
2. You choose the arena. In this case, why the hell would you wanna magic room your own choice?
3. Referee chooses the setting for the battle. Same as point 3 for the challenger.

As for dodge and strike moves taking only one move, I think it should count as two moves because it is two extreme actions in one. For example in case of dive, the user swims all the way to the bottom of the water body to dodge the attack, then comes all the way back up to hit the opponent. There is a reason moves like these take two turns in game.

As for my previous post, nevermind it, just saw the kind of shitty distribution magic room has. Thought it would have a distribution similar to trick room.
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Old 08-30-2015, 03:08 AM   #2034
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I feel introducing the multiple magic moves in ASB has done a lot more to kill diversity and the impact of arenas than Magic Room could ever do.
I'm sorry what? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Magic Room is much of a problem outside of gyms, but there's what? Three Magic moves? Magic!Rock Slide, which is exclusive to Rock Types, Magic!Rock Climb, which is still more or less arena dependent, just dependent on a different aspect of the arena than regular Rock Climb is, and Magic!Surf, which is pretty much the only way for water-based mon to move outside of water. The first one allows an already garbage type to use one of its most solid STAB moves, the second is still arena dependent, and the third is desperately needed to make water types that already are shitty on land not literal sitting ducks whenever they get psychucked out of the pool in Pummelo. I mean I guess you could call land-based Waterfall a magic move but honestly Aqua Jet always has and always will work the exact same way so it's kind of silly to.

Unless there's a magic move or two I'm just forgetting about that actually does mess with the impact of arenas in an egregious manner?

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-snip-
For certain more complex arenas, it really isn't that simple. Not everything is lawn or rock arena. If Shifting Stadium shifts to Pool With Pontoons and you're facing a Water-Type, for example, Magic Room would definitely be beneficial to stop them from hiding in the water. Similarly, if you're facing an electric type in a concrete arena, Magic Room would allow you to attack it with moves like Earthquake that normal can't be sent through the ground in a concrete arena.

There definitely are uses for it outside of the gym situations where it's broken.

As for dodge-and-strike moves, if we make them cost two moves there's literally no reason to use them over say, ST Agility and any given better attack. It ruins the whole usefulness of the move. Why use Dig when you could just ST Agillity to dodge and hit them with, say, Mega Punch that does more damage if both options cost you two moves? I suppose it would be energy efficient, but honestly when you consider the fact that a lot of scenarios will leave you with getting partially hit by the attack you're dodging when you use dig more often than not you'd just be better off using Protect or something.
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Old 08-30-2015, 05:50 AM   #2035
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For certain more complex arenas, it really isn't that simple. Not everything is lawn or rock arena. If Shifting Stadium shifts to Pool With Pontoons and you're facing a Water-Type, for example, Magic Room would definitely be beneficial to stop them from hiding in the water. Similarly, if you're facing an electric type in a concrete arena, Magic Room would allow you to attack it with moves like Earthquake that normal can't be sent through the ground in a concrete arena.

There definitely are uses for it outside of the gym situations where it's broken.

As for dodge-and-strike moves, if we make them cost two moves there's literally no reason to use them over say, ST Agility and any given better attack. It ruins the whole usefulness of the move. Why use Dig when you could just ST Agillity to dodge and hit them with, say, Mega Punch that does more damage if both options cost you two moves? I suppose it would be energy efficient, but honestly when you consider the fact that a lot of scenarios will leave you with getting partially hit by the attack you're dodging when you use dig more often than not you'd just be better off using Protect or something.
Yeah some arenas are much more complex than the others, like the Shifting Stadium, but again, both the battler know very well before hand how the stadium works, and pretty sure you can cover all the different environments with 6 pokemon slots. As I said before, if any battler has a problem with the arena, they don't have to accept the challenge or can ask the referee to pick a different one, no one is forcing them to fight on that particular arena unlike a gym or a legendary match, these matches are consensual.
I disagree that you need magic room to beat a water type in water environment, it doesn't give you a advantage anyway, it just puts the opponent at a huge handicap. Let us imagine that magic room has become a prevalent strategy in pasbl, and I have a magic room user in lets say mime jr. out, it is the water field with pontoons. You have let us say a remoraid, a numel and a buneary. Which pokemon will you send out? Will you risk using remoraid and me casting magic room and making it useless? This is why I feel magic room is unhealthy.
Arenas are one of the best thing about asb. It really adds to the role playing aspect. If someone does not like them, they can use lawn arena like me. Magic room just takes out the fun and creativity. While we are at it, might as well make wonder room neutralize the types of pokemon and their attack on the field, making them typeless and removing all the weakness and resistance bullshit.
As for your second example regarding concrete arena and electric types, this one of the very few times when magic guard is actually useful. But IMO the problem here is with electric types and them having only one weakness which can be nullified with arena, and they don't have horrible defenses holding them back like in competitive battling. Imagine how broken normal types will be if you make a Gandhi Arena where "lol no fighting type moves".


In regards to dodging and striking moves, yes they will not be as useful as they are now if they are counted as two moves, but their energy cost can be dropped so that they cost lesser energy than ST agility + attack or protect + attack. It can also be added in their description if they are counted as two moves in one, that they one cause the exhaustion of using only one moves. It will work really well with something like toxic stalling as you don't use much energy and does not cause much exhaustion. They will also be useful in those rounds that your pokemon really needs a breather in.
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Old 08-31-2015, 08:23 AM   #2036
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>Magic Room

Go out and abuse it then imo. If you can grab overwhelming advantages with it, bring the matches back here and there'll actually be any evidence it's a problem, and if you can't then it isn't. That's how things actually get changed around here.

>Dodge and strike moves

Should probably be made explicit that they're pretty energy inefficient, much like boost and strike moves etc.
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Old 08-31-2015, 08:40 AM   #2037
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Quote:
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>Dodge and strike moves

Should probably be made explicit that they're pretty energy inefficient, much like boost and strike moves etc.
I believe I made a suggestion along the lines of "if they strike tack on extra energy use, otherwise keep them at their normal energy use"
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Old 08-31-2015, 04:59 PM   #2038
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I believe I made a suggestion along the lines of "if they strike tack on extra energy use, otherwise keep them at their normal energy use"
If we're gonna do something like that, it really should be more like "if they both strike AND dodge, extra energy is used", though frankly having these moves at fixed energy even with a strike added in isn't that broken since the extra damage is often pretty negligible.
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Old 09-02-2015, 11:09 AM   #2039
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So with regards to Magic Room the entire discussion was somewhat ignored by LOs so I'll take it to the LO subforum and see what we think of everything.
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Old 09-02-2015, 11:10 AM   #2040
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Thanks very much!
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Old 09-02-2015, 11:18 AM   #2041
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If we're gonna do something like that, it really should be more like "if they both strike AND dodge, extra energy is used", though frankly having these moves at fixed energy even with a strike added in isn't that broken since the extra damage is often pretty negligible.
No it really is not okay. Dodge and strike moves are used in offensive playstyles as risk-free, super efficient (they are almost always more efficient than Agility in the same context), momentum swinging moves. These moves are not as useful in a defensive playstyle because the extra damage is not needed and they cost more energy. I don't feel this is okay. I really think that dodge and strike moves shouldn't often result in perfect dodges. Most of the time, it should be partial dodges. I know Connor and Charm don't agree with me on this, but none of the dodge and strike moves should be better than Agility on the dodging front.
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Old 09-02-2015, 11:20 AM   #2042
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I think the idea that they should always be perfect dodges is flawed. Sometimes, they should be perfect dodges, such as a Sandslash using Dig to evade an Ice Beam from a paralysed Snorlax, but generally Rock Climb should not be a perfect dodge any more than Skull Bash should be a perfect Iron Defense.

But I think a better way to do it is to make them energy inefficient. Also the relevant type should have the ability to perform a STAB version if desired but others should get only Normal.
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Old 09-02-2015, 03:08 PM   #2043
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No it really is not okay. Dodge and strike moves are used in offensive playstyles as risk-free, super efficient (they are almost always more efficient than Agility in the same context), momentum swinging moves. These moves are not as useful in a defensive playstyle because the extra damage is not needed and they cost more energy. I don't feel this is okay. I really think that dodge and strike moves shouldn't often result in perfect dodges. Most of the time, it should be partial dodges. I know Connor and Charm don't agree with me on this, but none of the dodge and strike moves should be better than Agility on the dodging front.
Okay so we're definitely talking past each other here.

I pretty much agree that when you use a move to go out of your way to dodge and then come back to strike, they really should use more energy. And in most cases, you should only dodge partially, or at least you should go out of your way for a full dodge. But when it comes down to it, we also have to respect the fact that moves like Quick Attack and Aqua Jet have been used in the anime countless times as dodge-and-strike. Because of that, I don't want to strip these moves of their dodging abilities. If you just Quick Attack out of the way, it should work bar extenuating circumstances. But, on the other hand, if you're trying to do both, you'll not get either too well and should spend more energy to get that additional damage.

I also don't really understand where you're going with Agility at all. Agility is a universal stand-in move for all Pokémon to get reliable dodges - arguing that we're devaluing Agility because there are other better moves is the same as arguing that we're devaluing Pound because we buff Mega Punch in my mind.

My concern with dodge-and-strike is less the lightish damage done by the actual attack but the potential for it to combo. For that reason (and others) I think Kush's proposal of making them universally inefficient should be the direction we take them in; if you want a fast move that will guarantee a dodge or a hit, you should spend more energy to do that, and if you want to have your cake and eat it too, you should have to spend even more energy.

>Also the relevant type should have the ability to perform a STAB version if desired but others should get only Normal.

You mean like Dig and Fly and stuff, right? Because you didn't make that clear at all xd Otherwise we're just stripping Aqua Jetters of Aqua Jet.
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Old 09-02-2015, 03:16 PM   #2044
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Yeah.
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Old 09-02-2015, 03:18 PM   #2045
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Alright.

I was gonna make this in my last post but I forgot and I feel like it'd get buried anyway.

For now, I'm closing this thread. Don't worry, I'm going to cook up a replacement here in a moment.

The way we've handled move rewrites in the past has generally not been an issue, but now I feel like this system is just creating contempt and hurt feelings. So we're gonna take a cue from the revised sig court and do a more formalized version of move reviews. I'm gonna try to clean up the remaining concerns in this thread and you can direct new concerns to the new one.

Thanks!
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