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Old 06-27-2015, 10:50 AM   #26
Mercutio
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Is this not over complicating the issue a bit?

If, say, you give Golem the ability to reduce damage from physical attacks by 20% for light energy, is that valuable? Clearly it's quite useful against Dragon Claw or Zen Headbutt. Is it more or less useful against Focus Punch or Power Whip? Either way is it really that useful when your opponent can just use Dragon Pulse, Psychic or Leaf Storm?

Same question but 33%, or 50%.
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Old 06-27-2015, 11:02 AM   #27
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It's probably more useful against SE moves than not. A 20% reduction in damage against a SE Power Whip is about a considerable amount which is pretty significant. (ha).
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:18 PM   #28
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Can defensive moves have a large burst of increase in defense for the first few moments, like one of the Harden variations, and then turn into the normal boost? The boost would not need to have to be too high in percentage to be useful, if only because the initial boost would still count for something if the lasting boost does not do anything. As mentioned, while you control how useful your offensive boosts are, the opponent can easily control how useful your defensive boosts are, depending on movepool. This will let the user reliably reduce damage from something.
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:21 PM   #29
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I don't really see the point. If your opponent is using lower power moves or not attacking to make your buff less useful you are already in a good place. Defensive play takes time, its doesn't end in three rounds.
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:26 PM   #30
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That would only really apply if both defensive stats are boosted. Otherwise, the opponent can likely use a move of the other kind. Of course, unless you have a reliable means to shut the other kind of offense down as well. Basically, the question Kush posed in his previous post.

It would be like screens; they are often not very effective going first unless the opponent's movepool is very limited either physically or specially.
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:32 PM   #31
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I dunno. I feel you are trying too hard to make them like Protect or ST Agility when its meant to be a long-term investment. Often a lot of Pokemon only have off-type that exists on one end of the spectrum only. If you are a Cloyster and you are facing a grass-type its not really going to help. But if you are facing something like a Rampardos it'll be more useful. (Fucking hard to find a good example).

The usefulness of moves is not just in numbers.
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:39 PM   #32
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Emi is right.
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:54 PM   #33
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That said, I think we need both buffs intended as long-term investments and ones that are bonuses on top of other effects. Like, I would gladly use the current version of Growl or Iron Defence over Kush's proposed rewrites. They counterpart moves Emi brought up such as Bounce and Waterfall, being primarily avoidance/reduction moves which also do something else, it's just in this case the 'something else' is a debuff/buff rather than damage.

Put another way, barely any offensive move are just damage and nothing else, so I think the same should apply to defensive moves or they're never going to be cohesive. This also ties into Emi's mention that defensive play generally involves avoiding attacks altogether- Current Growl accomplishes this and can inflict a debuff, aiding with when your opponent does manage to hit you. In fact, I feel the effect chance of Growl could be notably buffed up, since, unlike offensive moves with percentage secondary effects (Discharge, for example), diminishing returns means the primary value of the move diminishes over uses. You can spam Discharge every round and the damage won't go down on you, but Growl's interrupt effect will decrease in effectiveness. So, in exchange, shouldn't Growl have a greater chance of debuff? Even 100%, while potentially OP, would be, as Kush put it, "not too bad". Another example of a buff move like this, certainly not coincidentally one of our few buff moves which actually sees common usage, is Calm Mind and Amnesia.
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:58 PM   #34
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Perhaps you're right, Kin, but you have to be careful with multi layered effects. Like, Harden and Iron Defense having a short term spike in defence, fine, but Screech being a sharp reduction in defence and also a basically flawless way to interrupt an action? Too much.
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:06 PM   #35
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I'll keep this brief because I'm on a phone.

I think adding in the short term spike would be beneficial. For example when Iron Defence is originally used, the user receives a 50% damage reduction from physical moves in the first round, and then in the coming rounds (for however long the boost lasts) the reduction drops to 33%. I think that this would help make defensive boosts a bit better in some situations than ST Agility and helps with keeping them from being one dimensional while many offensive moves can do more than one thing (quick attack, HJK, etc)
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:38 PM   #36
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My issue with the short term spike is that its almost never better than ST Agility or Reflect. I want to keep these moves from being pseudo-clones to those, not make them more like them because the more we make defensive boosts like their dodgy cousins the less useful they get.

I don't mind multi-layered effects but the spike is just not very useful. Maybe perhaps since Iron Defense kinda has a covering in Steel dealeo we can make the Pokemon have a Iron Head like bonus or a resistance to poison (the status)?
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:51 PM   #37
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In my opinion, while the short-term spike may not be as reliable as Agility or Protect, it is more reliable than a simple stat boost to me. It may be weaker than Short-Term Agility, but it will, while not lessening damage as much, leave a lingering boost. It trades off some of Agility's reliability for a more long-term investment, while also having a short-term effect that is likely to be useful.

However, something like super armour sounds good, too. The Pokemon could be less prone to being stunned by taking attacks or flinching. Essentially like adding bulk to a Pokemon. For example, if a physically bulky Pokemon that can destroy the opponent at close range uses a move to boost its Special Defense, it will be even harder to keep at bay.
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:56 PM   #38
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I have read nothing of this conversation but I'm pretty sure the answer is better refs, because that's like always the answer.
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Old 06-27-2015, 03:06 PM   #39
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This is basically the issue. XD
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Old 06-27-2015, 03:17 PM   #40
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I miss Swords Dance and Nasty Plot being 50% boosts ;;
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Old 06-27-2015, 03:25 PM   #41
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I think the answer mostly lies in decreasing energy cost a bit, and making them last longer.

Also, not defining exact percentages because eww
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Old 06-28-2015, 09:53 PM   #42
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I feel like there should be some moves that are only a short term spike and others that are long term (4-5 rounds or more), but not both. Obviously the only way to know for sure is to put these rules into effect and see if there is a massive increase in the amount of energy KOs but that's just what I think
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