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Old 04-19-2015, 04:45 PM   #401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aposteriori View Post
Rebuttal: Your gym is open switch and the global effect that it causes for the opposing pokemon are major. The badge that you have also increases its potency. It doesn't benefit Shedinja, it benefits your team. The only issue I have with the signature its that it blocks normal. Blocking anything else that is not stab should be fair game.
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Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Rebuttal: My opponent can also switch.
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Originally Posted by Emi View Post
Seal off Fire, purifying yourself of Steel, then laugh as that Round does nothing before rising into the air and giving him a Shadow Ball.
Rebuttal 2.0: Really, really shouldn't be blocking off stab.
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Old 04-19-2015, 04:46 PM   #402
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Hi yes Emi I'm really not going to ref that blocking off STAB attacks.
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Old 04-19-2015, 04:50 PM   #403
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There isn't any reason not to ref the sig working as intended.
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Old 04-19-2015, 04:57 PM   #404
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Because sealing off STAB moves should either be nigh-on impossible (see: my Honchkrow sig) or be noted to take a lot more energy than usual (see: Imprison).
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:00 PM   #405
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Because Pokemon shouldn't have unlimited energy of any type is not a good reason for me to not ref your Toxicroak sig as doing that. If a sig is overpowered, it goes here where a sig LO eventually gets to it. Refs should not be making de facto changes to sigs.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:02 PM   #406
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Honestly, I think it should work as intended. Bringing this up mid battle is a thing that should be discouraged since it's a drastic change, almost like changing a mon's Hidden Power or sig after the battle's begun. Don't punish the sig writer if an overpowered sig gets passed by applying nerfs only when it comes up in the middle of a battle. If it was a problem, it shouldn't be passed in the first place, and any edits made here should really only take effect in any battles started after the sig was judged.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:05 PM   #407
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Most of the time it doesn't come up until it is used in battle, and it is equally as bad for the trainer facing it. Most trainers don't bother to read in depth whatever signature the opponent brings. There is also a general community disdain to bring up signatures, and Apollo is hardly the trainer to complain.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:09 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aposteriori View Post
Most of the time it doesn't come up until it is used in battle, and it is equally as bad for the trainer facing it. Most trainers don't bother to read in depth whatever signature the opponent brings. There is also a general community disdain to bring up signatures, and Apollo is hardly the trainer to complain.
I am in no way responsible for people being fucktards.

The sig is being reposted anyways, for those who want to know, I realized that I never put usage restrictions on it so it could be used more than once to seal off multiple types and that wasn't my intention on writing this sig. But I will not have my sig nerfed in battle when refs have no right to do so.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:28 PM   #409
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Ref's Discretion still applies to sigs.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:30 PM   #410
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If Dave were to not allow the sig to stop STAB attacks, that wouldn't be discretion though Jeri. That's directly contradicting what the sig is stated to do. Discretion should fill in the grey areas, not take the black and change it to white, or my understanding of it is completely off.

Unless you're not talking about Dave, then ignore me.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:39 PM   #411
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Sigs are like any other move - if the ref has a compelling reason to think it should fail, then they should make it fail. Just because sigs are written by the person using them doesn't mean they should always work the way the user thinks they should.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:48 PM   #412
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It's not "the way I think it should work", its how its written. No such restriction exists on the sig and the ref shouldn't have the right to make up one. It's not even crippling for Torchic either, unless everyone conveniently forgot its a mental block.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:50 PM   #413
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Nope, sorry. Sigs are like any other move. Ref's discretion applies.
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Old 04-19-2015, 05:59 PM   #414
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This thread is an utter waste of time then, if ref's can make any changes to a sig they want.
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Old 04-19-2015, 06:03 PM   #415
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Wow, no, that's not how it works. You're blowing this way out of proportion because you're frustrated.

Ref's can enact ref's discretion on a sig - like any other move or situation - if they see a reason to. As long as it does not directly contradict any part of the sig - which Dave's interpretation doesn't - they are free to make that change.

If this were a normal move, like Imprison for instance, and it didn't specify that STAB moves can't get locked away, it would still totally be in the ref's power to prevent that from happening since it doesn't make sense to lock a move (or in this case, an energy type) that is pretty much essential to the target.

Sigs aren't special. They are like any other move. If anything, ref's discretion should apply more since sigs aren't written with balance specifically in mind by LO's who have significant experience with writing for balance.
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Old 04-19-2015, 06:11 PM   #416
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Imprison does lock away STAB moves though, its been reffed that way consistently, so your entire argument falls flat. All moves so far that can block energy can block STAB, there isn't a single move that can't. Grudge, Imprison, Dave's Honchkrow. They all can and what's more they have explicitly written side effects. There is no universal rule on how moves like this interact with STAB or STAB moves, except that they can.

You're damn right I'm frustrated, because his interpretation is wrong, based on every single move out there that works similarly, and its being justified extremely poorly.
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Old 04-19-2015, 06:14 PM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by My Honchkrow
Special Attack - Nevermore! (DK):
Quoth can select a non-natural type within the opponent's movepool, cursing them to be unable to use moves of that type similarly to Grudge. This attack follows the Mozz Badge rules, only able to be used on types which the target has between one and four damaging attacks of. The curse takes considerable energy to perform, is only usable once per battle, and lasts for four rounds on average.
Also Imprison is explicitly noted to cost more energy to disable a STAB move. Grudge I've not reffed but if I did for STAB energy it would likely only manage it for a handful of rounds.
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Old 04-19-2015, 06:20 PM   #418
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>There is no universal rule on how moves like this interact with STAB or STAB moves, except that they can.

Is it written anywhere that this is the case? The way ref's discretion works is that you fill in for any rules that aren't explicitly written.

All your examples are pretty poor. Imprison seals off a single move, so it can be more flexible. Grudge requires fainting, so it's rather extreme and is going to be more powerful. Dave's Honchkrow, as he pointed out, can't seal STAB.

Please don't take this personally, Emi. It's not meant to be in the slightest.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:41 AM   #419
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From Aposteriori's Drifblim:
Quote:
Biography: Playing off on the idea that the Drifloon line sometimes make children disappear,Gypsy made parents go through a living nightmare; She would momentarily place a curse on the parents that would make them believe their child had gone missing for a while. Some parents were driven to insanity with the thought of losing their children. Once the curse would wear off, the parents would realize that their homes were ransacked and all of their valuables were gone. Their only solace was to find their actual child sleeping comfortably away.
Special Attack: Living Nightmare [GH]
For Moderate energy, Gypsy can place a Living Nightmare curse on an opponent even if they are awake, sapping away Moderate amount of energy for five rounds. The energy sap affects the overall fatigue level of the opponent. Energy drained is transferred to Gypsy at the end of every round until the curse ends. Diminishing effects apply after a new living nightmare curse is placed. It is only curable by the effects of Refresh.
The issue that I have with this is that it's getting a lot of good effects without any apparent faults or drawbacks. It's a draining move, it causes exhaustion, it doesn't require any status or circumstance, and can't really be removed if you don't have Refresh (which applies to most Pokemon). It's better than normal Nightmare right out of the box and it would make sense for Drifblim to not be able to use Hypnosis or some other moves as collateral.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:43 AM   #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
From Aposteriori's Drifblim:


The issue that I have with this is that it's getting a lot of good effects without any apparent faults or drawbacks. It's a draining move, it causes exhaustion, it doesn't require any status or circumstance, and can't really be removed if you don't have Refresh (which applies to most Pokemon). It's better than normal Nightmare right out of the box and it would make sense for Drifblim to not be able to use Hypnosis or some other moves as collateral.
Rebuttal: The sig should also clarify that it should be removed by heal bell as well, like any other curse.

It is not broken because it is in essence a ghost version of leech seed without the tying down effects. If you do not prepare for it ahead of time, you are in the same pit like any other curse and Drifblim is not as stellar of a ghost like Gengar so you have plenty of off-type ways to shut it down before your energy reaches any real harm.

Rewrite 1:
Quote:
Gypsy: Female Drifblim
Biography: Playing off on the idea that the Drifloon line sometimes make children disappear,Gypsy made parents go through a living nightmare; She would momentarily place a curse on the parents that would make them believe their child had gone missing for a while. Some parents were driven to insanity with the thought of losing their children. Once the curse would wear off, the parents would realize that their homes were ransacked and all of their valuables were gone. Their only solace was to find their actual child sleeping comfortably away.
Special Attack: Living Nightmare [GH]
For Moderate energy, Gypsy can place a Living Nightmare curse on an opponent even if they are awake, sapping away Moderate amount of energy for five rounds. The energy sap affects the overall fatigue level of the opponent. Energy drained is transferred to Gypsy at the end of every round until the curse ends. Diminishing effects apply after a new living nightmare curse is placed. It is curable by conventional methods of removing curses.

Last edited by Aposteriori; 04-21-2015 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 04-21-2015, 11:56 AM   #421
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That's fair; it's still Leech Seed and Nightmare's superbaby but I see the reasoning.
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:18 PM   #422
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It is in no way a Ghost typed version of Leech Seed. Leech Seed is distinctly easy to remove, whereas this requires moves which are honestly not distributed enough to justify that kind of rebuttal argument.
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Old 04-21-2015, 01:37 PM   #423
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Should the Signature LO deem the original one too powerful.

Quote:
Gypsy: Female Drifblim
Biography: Playing off on the idea that the Drifloon line sometimes make children disappear,Gypsy made parents go through a living nightmare; She would momentarily place a curse on the parents that would make them believe their child had gone missing for a while. Some parents were driven to insanity with the thought of losing their children. Once the curse would wear off, the parents would realize that their homes were ransacked and all of their valuables were gone. Their only solace was to find their actual child sleeping comfortably away.
Special Attack: Living Nightmare [GH]
For Moderate energy, Gypsy can place a Living Nightmare curse on an opponent even if they are awake, sapping away Moderate amount of energy for five rounds. The energy sap affects the overall fatigue level of the opponent. Energy drained is transferred to Gypsy at the end of every round until the curse ends. Diminishing effects apply after a new living nightmare curse is placed. It is curable by conventional methods of removing curses, and it will dissipate should another curse should affect the victim. The curse can only be placed once per pokemon.
Better?
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