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Old 02-14-2015, 05:16 PM   #1
Mercutio
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Eevee Typecharts

If you were to redesign the Pokémon type chart from scratch, what would be weak, neutral, resistant and immune to what?

ASB Skype is currently having a level acquisitions chat, because it's that time of year again, and an interesting side discussion is about type charts and how Gamefreak doesn't always get them right.

Starting from the ground up, with no precedent and freedom to do whatever you like, including all 18 current Pokémon types and without the ability to change the typing of any existing Pokémon.

What would you change?

So, will you make Rock types resistant to Grass? How about making Flying types neutral to Rock? And why do Fairy types wall Dragon types again?


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Old 02-14-2015, 05:31 PM   #2
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List!

Normal
Fire
Fighting
Water
Flying
Grass
Poison
Electric
Ground
Psychic
Rock
Ice
Bug
Dragon
Ghost
Dark
Steel
Fairy

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Old 02-14-2015, 05:44 PM   #3
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If I knew we were going to flirt with hot water eventually (e.g. Scald) I'd have more than likely argued for a single Water type that covers all of steam, water, and ice. I'd definitely argue for the merger of Rock and Ground into a single Earth type because the current split typing on that one is idiotic. But I digress. You didn't ask for this. Sticking strictly to the parameters of retrofitting the 18 types ...

Water would become weak to Poison. Poison diffuses through water, Nature's solvent, faster than through most other materials or substances. A single drop of poison can sometimes be said to have contaminated an entire body of water. It makes flavorful sense. It also provides some balance. (Water gains a weakness, Poison gains a victim.)

Rock would become weak to Ice. When water gets into rocks' cracks and then freezes, the expansion causes the rock to break apart. This lies at the very foundation of erosion: water turning into ice inside of rocks is what erodes mountains. (That and wind.)

Bug would become weak to Poison again. INSECTICIDE FFS. I understand that venomous insects ought not be weak to venom, a subtype of poison ... but hey! Guess what? They wouldn't be! Because Bug/Poison would be neutral to Poison owing to Poison resisting itself! How 'bout that?

Steel would become weak to Electricity. It makes as much sense -- more, actually! -- for super-conductive Steel to be weak to Electricity as it does Water. And Water's a fucked-up case since pure water doesn't conduct electricity. But pure steel does. This is another great balancer too: Electric gains a much-needed victim while Steel gains a sensible weakness to keep it somewhat in check.

Dark would become neutral to Fairy purely on the basis of flavor. You can't make two types devotedly tied to the Moon and then say that one of the two is weak to the other one's lunar blasts of light. ^^; Either divorce Fairy of the Moon ties, divorce Dark of them, or make Dark no longer weak to Fairy. Pick one!

Grass wouldn't just become immune to Water but would be healed by it. (Every Grass type now has Water Absorb! Because they ACTUALLY DO.) But this would be hilariously broken against Water and so yeah maybe not. :p But it makes good, flavorful sense.

(To be continued)
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Old 02-14-2015, 05:49 PM   #4
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> Steel weak to Electric

Yesssssssssssssssssss
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Old 02-14-2015, 06:26 PM   #5
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How I'd organize it.

Types have stages just like Evolutions do. Base, Stage I, Stage II.

Normal (base) > Fighting/Psychic > Ghost
Fire > Dragon
Water > Ice
Grass > Bug/Poison
Ground > Rock > Steel
Electric
Flying
Dark
Fairy

Stage II will be weak to Stage III, but Stage I will be immune to Stage III. Stage I is weak to Stage II.

I'd also remove immunities aside from what I said above. There's only resistances and weakness, so things are easier to balance.

I'll do the rest later!
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Old 02-14-2015, 06:32 PM   #6
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Ghost would be re-written completely as the one type whose defenses are written around the Physical/Special split rather than being written around the type chart. Putting it simply: being aethereal, Ghosts would become immune to all physical attacks but normally vulnerable to all special attacks. So they would become the ultimate physical check/counter -- and, with Pokémon as we know it today, could quite possibly become horridly broken -- but they would be susceptible to things like a telekinetic wave of energy, magic fire, magic electricity, and so on.

This is a big personal soap box of mine and thus one I won't likely budge on no matter what other people say. [/lol that's fair] I respect that others may disagree with it and/or dislike it, but it drives me up the wall that ghosts -- ghosts! -- are able to be bitten, crunched, and sucker punched. It's like come the fuck on. It's a ghost. It's supposed to be vaporous and intangible and AIASJIEITRJIGFJIGFJISJISDSJIDSDIP.

Honestly, I think that if Game Freak had had the physical/special split around in Gen 1 the way it was later implemented in Gen 4 we would've probably had something close to what I'm describing. It's clear from what they chose to do with the Gengar line in Gen 1 that they were trying something special out with the Ghost type. (Even if it was poorly executed even back then. ^^; ) I think that a "lol, immune to physical, normal to special" creature type is one direction they could've easily taken Ghost given the flavor we all brought to Pokémon from our prior exposure to centuries of literary and cinematic fiction featuring ghosts.

I dunno. It'd still be pretty severely game imbalancing (especially for Pokémon as we know it today). A creature type that utterly shits on 50% of the offensive moves in the game would see competitive players all fielding at least one specimen of that type on their teams and then fielding five other things that DO NOT rely upon attacks of the lol-I'm-immune-to-it type ...

Unless ...

Unless Game Freak were to have cleverly found a way to incentivize us all bringing physical hitters despite the existence of lol-I'm-immune-to-all-physical-attacks Ghosts.

I dunno. Anyway ...

(To be continued)
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Old 02-15-2015, 01:22 AM   #7
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Ice - Resistant to Water, neutral from rock.
Honest I feel like Ice would just add water to its own mass after impact. Also have you ever tried throwing a rock at really thick ice?

Dark - Neutral from fairy.
Please no nerfing this horrible type Gamefreak

Steel - Weak to Electric
Steel conducts the fuck out of electricity

Dragon - Neutral to Electric & Weak to Steel
The Electric resistance never really made sense to me and I think they should be Weak to Steels with the premise that knights have used Steel blades to vanquish dragons.

Rock - Resistant to Fighting & Electric
Rock is really hard, don't punch rocks kids, also Rocks don't really conduct electricity well sooo.

Ghost - Weak to Fairy
Ghost is a very strong offensive typing right now and with my desire to take Dark away from Fairies list of potential typespam I figured Ghost would be a good call here.

Fire - Resistant to Electric
Heat refracts electricity and tbh, Electric could use another weakness.
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Old 02-15-2015, 01:43 AM   #8
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I agree on the Steel hitting Dragon SE point for an entirely different reason, yet also related, reason: Fairy is weak to Steel because in classic european mythology, Iron was the one thing which could drive off Fairies. What else was Iron said to be an expert at slaying? Dragons, of course.

(Of course this is all because Iron was found in 'rocks from the heavens' but you don't want me to go into that I'm sure)


On the flipside, Zelphy, I don't think your Rock=Ice example makes much sense. We're not talking some kid throwing a rock at a thick sheet of ice- that's like comparing a first stage pokemon with an evolved pokemon. You have to have them on even ground- a kid throwing a rock at a thin sheet of ice or a rock slide coming down on a thick sheet of ice. It's clear which wins out in either example, no? Also saying rocks don't conduct electricity well is just sooooo wrong. 'Rock' includes quartz and other (semi)precious gems, you know?
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Old 02-15-2015, 03:43 AM   #9
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Err. Zelph, if Water was poured on Ice, there is no way Ice would increase in mass. The warmth of the water would melt the Ice until they had equal temperatures.
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Old 02-15-2015, 05:38 AM   #10
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MYLES TYPECHART GOOOOOOO

X resistant/weak TO Y: X type pokemon should resist or be weak to Y type attacks

X weak/neutral/strong AGAINST Y: Y typed pokemon should either be neutral to or resistant to or weak to attacks of type X

Steel weak to electric as many have said. Because SENSE.

Bug neutral to and against fighting.

GROUND AND ROCK RESISTANT TO FIRE. I know one already does but the other doesn't and that does not sense make.

Ghost weak to Fairy: Yeah Fairy needs to be more than a dragon counter that also happens to beat two other mediocre offensive types.

Fire strong against Fairy. Fairy needs weaknesses that aren't shitty offensive types, and the one Pokemon good at wielding Poison and then not dying (Greninja) got banned.

Poison neutral to Fighting. I seriously have no idea why Poison resists Foghting right now, to be honest., so either this or make Fighting be weak to Poison along with poison resisting fighting and give Poison a much needed boost.

Bug weak to poison, yes.

Rock Weak to ice as Talon said. This is kind of the principle behind ice beats ground, too...

Dark neutral to Fairy. Dark has enough defense problems.

On another point: Make water immune to burns. Please. It makes no sense to be setting the sea on fire, especially when you use HOT WATER to do it. On that note, either nerf Scald's burn chance or buff Flamethrower's, as hot water should not be having a better shot at setting an ailment best described as setting your opponent on fire than an actual stream of fire should.

Fighting weak to steel. Now hear me out here. Sure, yada yada punches can apparently break metal, but the resting fist is probably NOT going to come out of being whacked with a steel beam too well. You'll probably have a few broken bones, I mean it's a lot of heavy metal smashing into your hand.

And now, something that you all will love me for: Make Flying's ground immunity any apply to certain moves, those moves being Earthquake, Bulldoze, Magnitude, Earth Power, and anything that is strictly in the ground. Ground typed projectiles such as Mud shot, mud Bomb, bonemerahg, bone club, bone rush, all that? By making flying immune to those, you're basically saying that "oh they just fly over it and haha. Well then by that logic flying would be immune to everything except psychic and maybe Electric.. Because they can just fly over the rest of it and not get hurt.

Fighting neutral or weak AGAINST steel. While karate teaches us to break cinder blocks with our bare hands, they haven't gotten us breaking metal beams yet.

Fire resistant to electric as Zelphy said..

Grass immune to electric. It's grounded, and ground walls electric, and electric needs to be not a normal typed with stuff it can actually exploit weaknesses of, as it is its a better omni type. And on that vein, remove levitate from any pure electric types. Air Baloon or Magnet Rise, but no perma-immunity to your ONE WEAKNESS. Or just make the flying type projectile rule from above apply to Levitate as well.

@Talon's proposal of Ghosts immune to all physical: NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE. But seriously, just no.

That's all, folks!
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Old 02-15-2015, 06:04 AM   #11
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Alright, let's do this. Keep in mind my projective typechart will have to do with balance more than it has to do with making sense.

Steel gets its Ghost resistance back. Steel remains neutral to Dark.
Fairy is no longer SE on Dark.
Fairy resists Ghost (honestly people saying Ghost should be weak to Fairy because its a good offensive typing is not how you do it)
Bug hits Fighting for neutral.
Poison hits Bug SE.
Flying and Poison no longer resists Grass.
Rock hits Ice for neutral.
Ice resists Water and Dragon.
Electric no longer resists Steel.
Water is weak to Poison.

That's most of what I can think of. Probably another type that needs the help (Flying maybe???) but I can't think of anything.
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Old 02-15-2015, 08:45 AM   #12
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Rocks don't conduct electricity well (although I'd imagine ones with high concentrations of quartz do it better) because the different minerals in rocks all have different resistance bands and it makes conductivity really hard.

At least I think that's what it is.
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Old 02-15-2015, 09:05 AM   #13
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If you want to get technical about it pure water is a terrible conductor of electricity and things in midair also do not conduct electricity.
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Old 02-15-2015, 12:55 PM   #14
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Pretty sure Rock as a type represent all 'non-refined' minerals. See: Power Gem.

To be fair, that's the main issue with the current typechart which causes confusion- Many types represent many different concepts which don't necessarily mesh with eachother.


Also, Myles? As I'm sure you know, burns can happen without fire. And we're not burning the Sea here- we're burning otters or whales or whathaveyou. For when we're trying to burn the Sea, there's Water Veil.
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Old 02-15-2015, 01:01 PM   #15
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Oh, also, tangent on the boiling water thing. Boiling water causes really bad severe burns really easily. That's not exactly an exaggeration
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Old 02-15-2015, 02:54 PM   #16
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Yes but fire should be doing it equally well if not more effectively than hot water. I mean, with water you have an instant to recoil from it to not get burnt. Fire? You might still get an instant, but your reflexes have gotta be damn good. I'm more concerned that flamethrower has a 10% burn chance iirc while scald has a 30% shot. And yes, we're burning otters and stuff but there's a reason stuff tends to burn poorly if at all when wet like most water types reasonably are most of the time.
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Old 02-15-2015, 02:59 PM   #17
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I'm actually more certain boiling water does more damage than actual flames.

Not sure why the reason is like on the tip of my tongue but I'm pretty certain.
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Old 02-15-2015, 04:04 PM   #18
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See with Rock I would probably take away the weakness to Fighting and to Grass, which makes it a better defensive type generally and assists the two incredibly poor type combos a bit. But I'm fine with some types being really bad against other types, that's Pokémon.

I should probably have allowed the ability to nix the Normal type from the birds because if I were Pokémon Emperor the only Normal/Flying types left would be the Dodrio line and Chatot.

But failing that, I feel like Flying types should stop being weak to Rock moves.
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Old 02-15-2015, 04:15 PM   #19
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I'm actually more certain boiling water does more damage than actual flames.

Not sure why the reason is like on the tip of my tongue but I'm pretty certain.
Conduction transfers more heat than convection.
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Old 02-15-2015, 04:15 PM   #20
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Yeah boiling things burn a lot more than normal flame. Hence why Lava Plume has a boosted burn rate (if we bumped a Flamethrower up Laval Plume would logically have to bump up to like 50%). It's common knowledge that molten chocolate is not something you EVEREVEREVER want on your skin,
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Old 02-16-2015, 02:25 AM   #21
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The real reason is that the specific heat of water is balls-out high. Especially compared to the specific heat of air- that of water is like 4200 times that of air.

./science
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Old 02-16-2015, 02:38 AM   #22
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I figured it had to do with specific heat but didn't want to make a fool of myself.
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Old 02-17-2015, 11:34 AM   #23
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/slaps self for not remembering that the specific heat of water is 4.something when that of iron is like half or less than that
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Old 02-19-2015, 08:02 AM   #24
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Main thing I'd change would probably be to give Electric at least one moreweakness; maybe Water ( watershorting out electric circuits makes as much sense as water conducting electricity for the converse weakness) or Fairy/Dragon (for the mythology vs modern technology vibe that already exists in Fairy's weaknesses to Steel and Poison/pollution).

Beyond that, I'd probably neutralise Steel's Fighting weakness but give it Water and Electric weaknesses, make Water weak to Ice (Water relies on liquid water, ice freezes it), Ghost weak to Steel and/or Grass (using iron bars or sticks from certain trees as a barrier against spirits). The latter set would warrant the corresponding resistances. Steel could possibly also get SE on Dragon (knight in shining armour), and I might remove Dragon's Fairy weakness because lol no sense.
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Old 02-19-2015, 04:33 PM   #25
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Fairy's weakness to Steel is actually based on fae legends, as one of the few weaknesses of the fae tend to be cold iron.
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