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Old 06-05-2014, 10:05 AM   #51
Mercutio
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Because usually you have to choose when to pull the trigger. It would be in your interests to use it as early as possible now in order to get maximum use of the regeneration effect.

Trying to mimic the anime is counter productive. The anime limits you to four moves and limitless off type. We have nevet been anime style in that regard and we never will be.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:06 AM   #52
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And I would argue that the majority of refs don't know how to ref tiredness so that's probably not a helpful comparison to make.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:36 AM   #53
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I'm not sure I agree with that, Kush, but maybe my optimism biases me towards hoping that people will figure out that the most optimal way is to pace yourself.

And it's not as much an argument as it is a reality.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:42 AM   #54
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Not to generalise too much but I think the vast majority of ASB refs don't really know what they're doing. And even the ones who have been around for ages frequently end up doing things which they shouldn't be or at least doing things wildly differently. Any time Dave refs for me I find out that he's reffing something in what you might call a questionable fashion and he's been doing this for years. Every other ref who has 15 matches on the go makes mistakes all the time. And if we're being truly honest about ourselves, some of the more prominent members of the league are absolutely awful to refs, and that includes LOs and GLs at times.

Now this is partially because of the way in which we actually do reffing and ref training and partially because we haven't made the effort to codify everything that we said we would a year ago. I really don't think it's an exaggeration to say that most people simply wouldn't be able to ref that second option properly and that, even if they could, battlers would still whine about discrepancies that they may have perceived or imagined. We really shouldn't be adding extra complication.

And perhaps. But think about it. If we assume it takes X rounds to recover a Flamethrower's worth of Fire energy and that X rounds is aboutthe amount of time you expect your pokémon to be alive for. There is no incentive to pace yourself in that scenario at all, you'd be stupid not to fire instantly. And so would your foe. Now, say that it takes X rounds to recover that energy but 2X rounds for the average pokémon to die, well ok, maybe it's less pressing a need but it's still in your interests to use your off type energy early.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:46 AM   #55
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I really don't see how people can't learn an additional aspect of the game, especially if it's codified and well outlined. As it stands, type energy is a big confusing mess with a lot of inconsistent rules and no real guidance on how it works. If we were to codify a slightly more complex system, then it could actually turn out to be easier than what we have now, because we've given solid, unequivocal guidelines instead of just vague "sorta do it like this".

I'm not saying we should just impose option 2 and let refs sink or swim. It needs to be tested first and outline properly before we can even consider introducing it. But I don't think your argument is strong enough to throw it out completely or find a compromise between the two.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:53 AM   #56
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Well no but your argument doesn't really hold water either given that in a situation where things are poorly codified and understood it's not better to create a new system, it's better to write the old system down and then identify problems with it. It could very well be easier but you have no way of knowing that and to assume it might be is dangerous in policy terms. In the grand scheme of things we're talking about pokémon so it doesn't matter but in the real world that's the kind of thinking that leads to large scale policy disasters.
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Old 06-09-2014, 10:33 AM   #57
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will hidden power remain 1 use of that type under this process of streamlining offtype?
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Old 06-09-2014, 10:49 AM   #58
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Don't see why not. We might tweak the system generally though.
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Old 06-09-2014, 11:02 AM   #59
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I would argue that we shouldn't have that if we decide on Reed-style, or some variant on that. Personally, I still don't like how Hidden Power is only one use if you're adding a type, so it makes some Pokemon (I.e Magnemite) have to decide between one use coverage and a unique Sig, or making an offensive option for their off-type while gaining coverage from Sig. Same thing for Pokemon who only get one move of an off-type. I don't know, but it sort of annoys me that some Pokemon are note limited than other because they have just one move of a type. The reason why I prefer Reed is because problems like this aren't as prelavent, the energy does come back... Eventually. Regardless, I hope that a working system can be found soon. I just want to see some balance here.
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Old 06-10-2014, 06:32 AM   #60
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Giving pokémon the ability to freely pick up another spammable off type would make for more boring sigs and a more boring ASB.
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Old 06-22-2014, 06:12 PM   #61
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I move that we implement option 1 now. We make Reed style an optional alternative in the same way that we currently allow people to use 4/6 for health and energy. That way we can work out the kinks with it on the move, which is risky but better than stagnation. Where fauxmiliarity is stuff like Electabuzz and Fighting moves and there is a small amount of leeway but this is the standard.
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Old 06-22-2014, 06:13 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
I move that we implement option 1 now. We make Reed style an optional alternative in the same way that we currently allow people to use 4/6 for health and energy. That way we can work out the kinks with it on the move, which is risky but better than stagnation.
I already started using option 1 since there is nothing formalized. It really works out better and gives out more turret power to pokemon. However, I might decide to use the 1 HB standard if I'm reffing 4/6.
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Old 06-22-2014, 06:17 PM   #63
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I second Kush's motion.
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Old 06-22-2014, 06:19 PM   #64
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Kush is right in all things*!

*Disclaimer: This statement is not always accurate.
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Old 06-22-2014, 08:53 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
I move that we implement option 1 now. We make Reed style an optional alternative in the same way that we currently allow people to use 4/6 for health and energy. That way we can work out the kinks with it on the move, which is risky but better than stagnation. Where fauxmiliarity is stuff like Electabuzz and Fighting moves and there is a small amount of leeway but this is the standard.
I agree but only if it is to be stated by the ref in literally every match as to what style they're doing. There may be a standard but that means very little nowadays and things need to be more openly visible.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:20 PM   #66
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The problem I see with the first option is that in general, it still nerfs Normals by default. So I think it should be made:

Quote:
SC Type energy nerfed Pokemon: 1 HB of off type energy

Generic pokémon: 2 Ice Beams of off type energy

Fauxmiliar (i.e. gained familiarity) pokémon: 2 Blizzards of off type energy

Familiar pokémon: 2 HB of off type energy
Also set as guideline, not 100% law.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:25 PM   #67
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We could just refer to option 1 as League Standard and option 2 as the adopted "Reed-Style". Makes it rather simple, really.
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:52 PM   #68
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So is fauxmiliarity determined by movepool or by signature move?
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Old 06-22-2014, 10:09 PM   #69
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movepool. Sigs that grant familiarity grant familiarity.
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Old 06-23-2014, 12:04 AM   #70
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Fauxmiliarity is like "Empoleon gets some Flying moves and is a bird, but not enough to warrant full on familiarity. Give it 2 drill pecks and a peck instead of the usual 2 drill pecks."
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:33 AM   #71
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> Sneezey

Yeah but this is a wider problem. The fact that a lot of refs are lazy and/or sometimes lie to the trainers about health and energy at present is not acceptable in my book but what you say isn't really relevant to this discussion. We already have the situation you're trying to make us avoid with people using wildly different scales and not telling people but making this standard would have little effect upon it.

> Kairne

Meh, if you like, but it's easier to keep Normals as they are and then make exceptions based on what doesn't need to be nerfed after the fact.
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Old 06-23-2014, 07:43 AM   #72
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Yeah but if I had it my way the battlers would be in charge of deciding the health/energy scale, SE scale, and even this and the ref would have to shut up and deal with it because they should be learning how every system works anyway, so I really don't see how forcing the refs to say what they should be saying in the first place is any real problem. People need to stop letting refs get away with being lazy about shit only for it to bite them in the ass later.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:07 AM   #73
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Alternatively, give trainers more autonomy by simply having them state what they want explicitly. I remember that Kush axed Rangeet right away when he attempted to employ 80/120 on his gym match. So giving this same degree of choice to the trainer wouldnt be that out there.
Example.
Quote:
2v2
Singles
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Equilevel 1
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Arena: Lawn Arena
Health/Energy Scale: 6/9
Supereffectiveness Scale: 2x/3x
Offtype Scale: 2 Ice Beam Worth

Also, it could just be stated to be the default for 6/9 scale to have offtype scale be 2 ice beam worth.

If the match is 4/6, then the offtype scale should reflect that with only 1 HB standard.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:44 AM   #74
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It's annoying enough to state the current parameters as it is. More parameters would just be even more confusing and complicated.

I really don't think you can have that many choices and still have a league. There needs to be an absolute default, so every other match isn't what amounts to being almost completely different.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:48 AM   #75
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Yeah. We should always have a default and you should have a good reason not to be using it.
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