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Old 06-04-2014, 06:55 PM   #26
Stealthy
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Originally Posted by Kindrindra View Post
So to confirm, pokemon who don't need to be nerfed would just have it noted in their SC that '___ is unaffected by the normal-type nerf' or something to that effect, right?
That's what I'm thinking.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:03 PM   #27
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So correct me if Im wrong, but the second one sounds like it makes it so that if you were t use two Shadow Balls as a Psychic type, later on in the mathc you can use a third Shadow Ball, even though it wouldnt be possible with the way it is now.

Right?
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:06 PM   #28
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That's the idea, though the pools would be kept a little lower to not encourage spamming, and it encourages timing your attacks well to prevent losing a pool for a number of rounds. It'd allow you to also use lower-energy or more defensive moves more frequently without having to worry so much about throwing away potential offense.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:10 PM   #29
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So correct me if Im wrong, but the second one sounds like it makes it so that if you were t use two Shadow Balls as a Psychic type, later on in the mathc you can use a third Shadow Ball, even though it wouldnt be possible with the way it is now.

Right?
Correct, even so the chance of that would be highly unlikely.

Anyways, I've really loved Reed-style ever since I've heard of it, but I haven't used it yet due to it not being kosher. To be honest, with the higher health scales system 1 still feels a little too low for me (besides Familiarity because that's cracky), though it can work. I like Reed style better as it'll allow a lot more Pokemon to be able to be used, since once some Pokemon lose their off-type... They short of get shut down. Of course, I would like to see a normal-esque nerf on some Pokemon (with slower regain, but not the normal nerf would be), but overall Systerm 2 seems a lot better, and with guidelines it should easily help bring life to some mons and create some new tactics and strategies.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:12 PM   #30
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Some normals really don't need a Normal Nerf.

Braviary is one of these, looking at its veekun page while doing ref app attempt 1, I'm pretty sure it had less off type than Delcatty, 8 to be exact if you count Toxic for poison.

Not only that, a lot of this off type doesn't do jack crap to counter weaknesses, save for Fighting and steel beating rock but Ground is so omnipresent in rocky types that a pure rock type with nothing that resist steel on it is rare.

Also it's fighting move pool is crappy rock smash and super taxing Superpower.

Call Braviary mediocre if you want, but the normal nerf isn't doing anything but hurting my favorite birdie.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:14 PM   #31
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Could I ask a question about Waters getting Ice familiarity and Ground getting Rock? Is the vice-versa also true? And should we assume that if a pre-evolution is a certain type, the evolution has familiarity of that typing? Masquerain and Drapion come to mind.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:16 PM   #32
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Could I ask a question about Waters getting Ice familiarity and Ground getting Rock? Is the vice-versa also true? And should we assume that if a pre-evolution is a certain type, the evolution has familiarity of that typing? Masquerain and Drapion come to mind.
It has been confirmed it's vice-versa for them. Also, iirc, it's been confirmed for those as well a few days ago or so.

>Myles

Dual-normals don't get the normal nerf.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:20 PM   #33
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Alright then. I like my Braviary, though I'm not going to get one until I can use SP steroids to make it a Braviary because Rufflet sucks azz.
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244) While not FORBIDDEN, my Midnight is to keep in mind that using an army of animated skeletons in order to fill the town square with a rendition of "Spooky Scary Skeletons" is going to be considered odd at best.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:50 PM   #34
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So I just went through all fully-evolved pure-Normals to see how much off-type they get. This is just a quick guide, haven't been through the event moves, and it also includes things like U-turn if it's the only Bug move because I knew if I posted it without people would go 'oh but Raticate totally gets Bug because it gets U-turn.

So, by number of off-types they get:

14: Lickilicky, Kangaskhan, Snorlax
13: Dunsparce, Ursaring, Slaking, Exploud, Zangoose
12: Raticate, Persian, Blissey, Tauros, Ambipom, Miltank, Delcatty, Kecleon, Watchog, Bouffalant
11: Linoone, Audino
10: Furret, Purugly, Stoutland, Cinccino
9: Porygon-Z, Stantler, Spinda, Castform, Lopunny
6: Furfrou (lolol)


Make of that what you will.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:57 PM   #35
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Right, so while I think that option one is a bit archaic and is simply a bump up in response to the higher health/energy system, which honestly everyone should have just bumped up energy pools anyway, I'm not sure whether or not I find the idea poor. The main reasoning being that I do like the idea for option two, especially if pools start off a little lower and just replenish themselves because frankly that makes sense, but I fear for how well refs would handle it. We've all seen first hand just how poorly a lot of the refs in the League deal with change to any part of the system, and I'm not a huge fan of having yet more complexities thrown into the system of reffing energy and exhaustion which most refs don't seem to firmly grasp in the first place.

So that said, I'd really like to say both plans are equally poor and we should try to find a nice mix of the two, or even a third option altogether.
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:59 PM   #36
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Okay so Furfrou can get denerfed. Problem solved!
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Old 06-04-2014, 09:15 PM   #37
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Furfrou could have unlimited type energy of like everything and still be piss poor.

I prefer the second over the first but my thoughts are generally on the same path as Sneezey's
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:59 PM   #38
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Okay, let me open this post up by saying one thing: Normal nerf is ridiculous and stupid and shouldn't be a thing, especially since Clefable and Wigglytuff, the poster children for the whole idea of normal nerf, no longer fit the criterium of pure Normal-type.

Now, Snorlax, Lickilicky? Sure, they probably need nerfed. Delcatty (as has been pointed out), generic rodents, Stoutland, etc? It needlessly punishes them for having a type that has no resistances, and whose one weakness is so widespread with moves like Rock Smash, Brick Break, and Focus Punch it's utterly ridiculous. Having the Normal type is enough of a curse for them, we don't need to shit on them more. They rely entirely on off-type to ever have any hope of inflicting super-effective damage. They are the only type that lacks any resistances, AND they are also the only type that (sigs excepted, because that's a different thing entirely) have no super-effective coverage of their own. This combined with the Normal nerf is a double jeopardy for them, especially the ones that don't have an ocean and six generations backing them up like Snorlax.

One thing that's always irked me about it as well is that if we're going to nerf all (or even most) Normals on type energy, why do we let things like Octillery, Nidoroyals, and Absol cruise around free of that curse? You can't look me in the eye and tell me Delcatty or Raticate are objectively even near their level, and they get STAB that has SE.

In sum re: Normal nerf, the fact that they have an above average amount of types they have access to is more than balanced by their lack of ability to deal super-effective damage without dipping into limited off-typed and lack of resistances. Especially since Clefable is no longer Normal at all, and Wigglytuff is Normal/Fairy and therefore had to specifically be noted as an exception to dual-typed Normals not getting the Normal nerf. It no longer makes any sense (not that it made too much from the start) to nerf all Normals like that.


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The one concern I have (under either solution) is: What about pokemon which get a lot of moves of a type, but don't have familiarity or anything of the like? Kangaskhan with Fighting? Electabuzz with Fighting? Gligar with Bug? Or would those fall under fauxmiliarity?
This kind of thing is part of why I don't want a fully standardised scale, to be honest. because everyone's interpretation is going to be different. Some will feel comfortable giving Gyarados a Fire Blast and a Flamethrower with no issue. Others 2 Flamethrowers exactly, and others still might not even give him a HB's worth of Fire energy. By imposing something strict for them, I feel like it craps all over the idea of ref's discretion when it comes to type energies. This also ties in to my nest response.

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EDIT: Also, I'll admit that I'm a bit of a fan of how iirc Kairne does it- Pokemon with less off-types will have more energy(/faster regen) of the types they do have access to, while Pokemon with more off-types will have less(/slower regen) of each type. I think this would serve as a valid way to put the subjective issue of 'movepool behemoths' to rest once and for all.
That's exactly how I roll with it. Pokemon like Sylveon I'll give some more off-type because it only has, what, three off-types? Fauxmiliarity should also adjust with it. I'd give all waters with Ice attacks two Ice Beams minimum of Ice, and most around two Blizzards. Octillery and Gyarados wade in the lower end because they have impressive movepools already, and have some thematic and movepool quirks that are less compatible with Ice than most waters (both have reliable Fire, Octillery is a cannon, and Gyarados has the pseudo-dragon thing going on), where I'd be like to give Luvdisc straight up 2 HB of Ice energy.

Most Ices (with any water moves) I'd give two Blizzards' worth of Water, because most have shit for movepool. Frosslass, less so. Beartic has a few more water moves than most and is a capable swimmer, so he'd get more.

Same with Ground and Rock's relationship. On average, I'd give most rocks more ground, than I'd give grounds rock energy. Nidoking is getting less Rock energy than Rampardos is of Ground.

Now, I put several factors into this. Thematics and movepool are the biggest ones. Cubone has a million Fighting moves, so of course he gets more Fighting energy than he does of most other types. Masquerain evolves from a water-type, so it will of course have increased water and ice pools. Gligar is an arachnid, and will get more Bug energy. I put this up and then adjust by looking at how extensive the off-type access they have is, and good old fashioned gut feeling.

Now, this leaves a lot open to discretion. Does Ninetails get more Ghost, more Psychic, more Dark, some combination, or none of them? Up to the ref. As long as they are consistent, ref's discretion is a good thing.


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For a number of years now, our policy on type energy has been rather lax. While we've generally advertized basic standards, we have never formalized the standards. With the changes in health and energy and the shifting of the meta, we've decided it's time to lay down standard guidelines in order to give battlers a better idea of what their type energy tanks are like and to (possibly) make ref's lives easier.

At the moment, there are two main proposals that have been brought up by LOs, though we may consider others.

The first is as follows:



The second is a little more complicated:



In addition, there will likely be another rule added to further define familiarity, and though largely an accessory to this discussion, it is good to keep in mind for balance purposes.



Discuss.
Now, here's a major thing I've said before, and will probably have to say a million more times: since health and energy were increased to 6/9 standard, type energy needs to be increased, too. Not proportionally, because then we'd run into some of the same problems we had in 4/6, but there needs to be some increase.

For one, I think that familiarity should never be lower than 2 HB, whether by sig, SC, or whatever. 2 HB should also be the extreme upper limit for fauxmiliarity, for extremes like Luvdisc and Alomomololola, with the range being from about 1.4 HB to 2 HB, depending on factors. I've seen some claiming 1.5 HB for familiarity but back in 4/6, many gave more than that for fauxmiliarity, so 1.5 HB for familiarity just doesn't cut it. Not in 4/6, and definitely not in 6/9.

Now, in response to the options presented. Type energy guidelines look great, for rough guidelines. However I cannot stress enough the importance of allowing for variation and discretion because, at the end of the day, the human factor and freedom of interpretation is a big thing that sets us apart from the things like TPM and Smogon's supposed ASBs.

The reed option looks great, on paper, but, honestly, I don't trust most refs to do it with less maths and more feels, which I think is needed for such a system. No insult meant, but the newer generations of refs are getting more and more hung up on the maths and formulae and leaving less room for the aforementioned human factor and gut feelings. We don't need more formulae and exact measurements. We need more "'thiiiiis' much", and I don't think the ASB as it currently stands is moving in a direction I'd trust to handle that system.

Also, SC familiarity and fauxmiliarity need to be less stingy. Only a handful of Pokemon have familiarity in SCs that isn't Psychic due to telekinetic Psychic, and most that aren't the Psychic ones are only given due to relation to another Pokemon, such as Bunnelby or Mudkip. Off the top of my head I can only think of the fireflies (which are "a little more Electric", not "familiar with electric") and Solrock that are separate. And if the SC says "has more [type] energy" giving fauxmiliarity, it still leaves it open to ref's interpretation where on the fauxmiliarity scale they set it.

We as a community should also be getting at least some general idea of what the SC overhaul is doing, and, moreover, how it's going. These two issues are intimately linked, and we've seen maybe a few tiny peeks into what's going on with them, and they seem to be stuck in the same ASB limbo that everything seems to fall into.

I know, it's largely an LO thing, too many cooks spoil the soup, and a million other cliches. But we're so in the dark on this we're not even sure there is a light bulb anymore.

So, my big opinion on the reed option boils down to this: if we are seriously considering this option, we need to do a few trial battles with that system, with known, salted refs doing the test drive, refs like Dave, Sneezey, and myself. If it works out well, we have a base to jump from and we can take our directions from there. If it derails, crashes and burns with seasoned refs in the captain's chair, then there's no way we can make it standard.

This ended up much longer than intended, and took a long time to type up, too.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:23 AM   #39
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I dunno. Call it being stuck in the old times but I really don't like the second system. At least the current system works a little like PP, the second system is just...weird. I can't make it fit with anything pokemon-like in my head. Plus, it's extremely confusing for newer members, and it'll be difficult to find a good fit for it.

Personally, I think the first system is almost perfect, if you give just a little leeway to the 2 Ice Beams thing. Because there are quite a few pokemon that a ref might want to give extra to but not bump it all the way up to Fauxmiliar.

That's my basic thoughts on the matter; I have to rush out now but I'll write more when I come back.
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Old 06-05-2014, 02:51 AM   #40
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I may e misremembering but I'm pretty sure that what Stealthy said is something I already alluded to. It's definitely what we're going to do if the first system is used. I'm all for imposing the nerf on other pokemon and we're already giving it to Clefable. We can easily give it to stuff like Dragonite.

Also comparing Furret to Salamence is hilarious but in no way relevant.
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Old 06-05-2014, 04:26 AM   #41
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So to lay my cards on the table, I think the second option is asking for trouble. It's an unnecessary change that doesn't solve an existing serious problem and requires more of our refs. It's more sophisticated and allows for a lot more long term play but it also allows for type spam right off the bat and will probably lead to a more boring ASB. Given that the majority of refs don't bother to tell you how your type energy is (and that many don't tell you how your helath and/or energy is) I really fail to see how keeping track of energy regen is in any way a smart move. If the entire ASB made a collective effort to be better at reffing then fine but they won't and we all know this to be true.

As for the first option, well, I wrote it. But the given levels were intended to be haggled over in the LO sub forum, it's just that no-one really bothered. Assuming that you can play around with the actual levels of energy allowed, we have a few issues to discuss.

One is the Normal nerf. Well, of course it's arbitrary. It's an arbitrary mechanism that has never actually worked particularly well but has always been accepted because it's the easiest way to deal with the enhanced coverage of a lot of Normal types. Speaking as a former Normal type GL, if you were to get rid of the nerf entirely there's only about half a dozen lines that would really need to be looked at and several of those aren't Normal type any more. The rest would merely be good pokémon. The Normal nerf inherently ignores the fact that some Normal types are awful and some other pokémon are actually better than the good Normal types anyway. Now that Clefable and Wigglytuff have forced our hand, we'll probably start dealing with this, and I can foresee a dozen lines being given the nerf. Stuff like Dragonite, Gyarados, Tyranitar, Nidoking, Octillary. Of course the difference is that these examples are much much easier to kill than Snorlax. So maybe we won't. But we can certainly look at removing it from stuff like Delcatty and we are already removing it from all dual type Normals. That's a thing which is happening regardless of how this discussion pans out.

The other thing is this concept of giving refs freedom to interpret stuff. I'm gonna call bullshit on that. We give you freedom to interpret stuff like dodge chance, attack interaction, secondary effect chances. We don't really give you freedom over health and energy; there's a bit of wiggle room but basically you have a set scale to work from and are obligated to tell people when you deviate from it. There is no argument for not doing this with type energy. It should have a codified and standardised baseline and you should be able to wiggle with it a small amount but if you choose to ref wildly differently then trainers should have the right to call you out on it. This is particularly important because the vast majority of refs don't actually tell people this kind of information as it becomes relevant. I routinely find myself eating attacks I shouldn't really have to or out of type energy when I should be good to go, largely because of ref laziness and a lack of standardisation. You want a bit of freedom? Fine. But the whole reason I included 'fauxmiliarity' was to negate the need to go "oh hey Electabuzz has lots of Fighting moves let's give it another Dynamic Punch". That's what fauxmiliarity refers to. It refers to a pokémon having lots of moves of a type but not actually being familiar with it.
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Old 06-05-2014, 05:01 AM   #42
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But we can certainly look at removing it from stuff like Delcatty and we are already removing it from all dual type Normals. That's a thing which is happening regardless of how this discussion pans out.
Furfrou and Stoutland weep with joy. Ta.
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Old 06-05-2014, 05:34 AM   #43
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>Post saying how many types fully-evolved Normals get to show that the only one who hugely needs denerfed is Furfrou
>People still clamouring for Delcatty and Raticate to be denerfed

I wonder why I even try sometimes.

Also for the record I hate the word 'fauxmiliarity' and whoever thought it up can go die in a fire.
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Old 06-05-2014, 05:44 AM   #44
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I think Concept created fauxmiliarity.
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Old 06-05-2014, 06:30 AM   #45
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So.

My views are almost entirely in line with Kush's. While on a personal level I do enjoy the idea of the second option, it asks a lot of our referees and it'll be highly likely that a good number will be too lazy to step to the plate. You also have to consider that a good deal of our active referee base are fairly (very) inexperienced, and such a system would be unnecessarily complex for them to follow even with highlighted guidelines. I think a number of the people supporting the second system are looking at it from the viewpoint of battlers, and I would suggest discouraging that. You should be looking at it through the eyes of yourself refereeing it. Doing that, I can say I would much prefer the first system.
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Old 06-05-2014, 07:22 AM   #46
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To give my newby-ungraded ref point of view.

I for one would LOVE the second system, both as battler and as ref. It's awesome and imho more in line with the anime too. It's not like Pikachu ever ran out of Iron Tails for as far as I can remember.

But being realistic, I think it will lead to more problems than it solves. A few I can think of are regeneration rate, the information you have to give the battlers as ref, and you would still have to define how much offtype energy a Pokémon gets in some shape or form as things like this: "but if you were to order two Blizzards from a Water type, they might need a few round before they can use another Icy Wind." implies there still is a limit to how much they can use within a certain time frame. And the amount of differences that are possible between refs with a system like this is insane, so to regulate a system like this, how awesome it would be, you're almost forcing yourself to work with the dreaded Minors (e.g. Pokémon X regens 2 Minors of offtype energy cause Y). And there is the amount of work that goes with it for refs if you want to keep track of what you're doing.

So the first system is objectively better as it standardizes energy-pools in a much easier way that requires quite a bit less work than system two. And Kush, given you said you wrote the numbers, I think you're pretty much spot on with what I would do.

And talking about nerfs, I think 1) not all Normals need to be nerfed (or denerfed) and 2) there are non-Normals that could use a nerf unless there are some circumstances such a lot of weaknesses or x4 weaknesses that balance it out. Most Normals are nerfed enough by their typing already anyways.
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Old 06-05-2014, 07:53 AM   #47
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I’m personally in favour of the second option because it makes more sense Animé-wise. ”Nope, you used two Discharge at the beginning of the battle, you can’t do a Thunderwave. No it doesn’t matter that the match drags out even for a further 10 rounds of one-movers, you’re not getting your energy back. But don’t worry, it’ll magically replenish the moment you face a new trainer.” - doesn't exactly make sense. It also avoids the whole idea of the Math-SB no one likes as battles should be more fluid rather than simply turreting the highest damaging attacks you have. Adding on to it that off-type energy tires the user more and you’d already be somewhat restraining mon with huge movepools from dancing from one super-effective off-type to the next.

The only problem with two has already been mentioned a few times; you’d have to trust your ref to keep track of it accurately and I can agree with Sneezey and Kairne that a lot of the newer refs (myself included) are going to have more trouble with it than we’d anticipate. Ref’s discretion, though fun, can really screw one over as Kairne said; one might allow a Gyarados to pull off a Flamethrower and Fire Blast but the next ref stops you after a Flamethrower thereby potentially throwing your strategy down the drain. Add to this that the ref might not even tell you how you are on energy and you’d just be playing a guessing game of what can and can’t work each time. Are we really going to ask of them to properly tell us when we can use a certain type again? So as much as I hate it, option 1 feels almost necessary.

If option 2 is chosen, we’re definitely going to need some sort of exhibition match or example match to give everyone a rough understanding on how it works. (Add to that, you may have to give refs from the past 1-2 years a small scenario test to see if we understand it properly.)

>Normal types and Nerfing Certain Pokémon
I didn’t quite fully understand at first why they needed the restriction in the first place but then I get to hear it was because of excessive move-pools. But you might nearly as well make a Gen1 nerf while you’re at it as they’re getting more and more moves with each generation while the latest additions have significantly fewer options. The normal-cap may have worked in the past but it doesn’t seem to be having nearly as great an effect now. I’m also not entirely in favour of doing case by case restrictions as there’s always going to be a select group of mon that stand on the top because of X reason. We’d just be changing who becomes the king of the hill and, as Dave said, open the can of worms that ’this should be nerfed because this mon is as well’.
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Last edited by Ex-Admiral Insane; 06-05-2014 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:14 AM   #48
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Gonna give my newbie opinion on this as well.

Since Pokémon who are returned regain energy in the poke ball, why not have option two have the regen rate the same as that (only they're in battle instead)? It'll define a standard for a regen rate while leaving specific off type energy amounts up to refs discretion.

I'm for option 2, as it seems like it would benefit me both as a ref and as a battler.
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:34 AM   #49
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Yeah, I prefer option 2, maybe 2 minors or something per round.
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Old 06-05-2014, 08:59 AM   #50
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So the current verdict right now is that option 2 is probably going to need to be tested and outlined, and if it's used, it won't be the standard that we teach new refs. It is enough of a deviation from the norm that I think it definitely needs to be looked at before it's approved for wider use, and it probably needs a much more formal construction as well.

I honestly think that it's not much different than reffing tiredness, since it works somewhat similarly, and that the only addition that it would really bring is the regen element to track. I really don't know how much more that is to keep up with, but I think that it's worth at least trying out, because it could potentially give us a healthier and more balanced meta.

>It's more sophisticated and allows for a lot more long term play but it also allows for type spam right off the bat and will probably lead to a more boring ASB.

I really don't see how it allow for more type spam right off the bat when we'd be lowering (or just not raising) the maximums for the pools in order to encourage taking advantage of it.
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