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Old 02-09-2014, 05:55 PM   #26
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I disagree and would probably see Spinda at TL2. It's not great but it's no Magikarp.
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Old 02-09-2014, 09:38 PM   #27
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Short version

Metagross/Metang- would support one of them going down, either Metagross to 5, or Metang to 2, but not both of these at the same time, I mean, yes Metagross lost a lot with the new type differences, it's not as good/invincible as it used to be. At the same time, Metagross dropping to 5 would make more sense than Metang dropping to 3, since it would be the common pattern of either 1->2->4 or 1->3->5

As for Gardevior, I'm neutral honestly, like Gardevior and Gallade are phenomenal, but I feel like TL4 is good enough, since Kirila and especially Ralts are pretty bad to begin with but I guess a bump is needed.

This is the same argument I have for Drapion- it got a boost, but Skorupi's so terrible I don't see how it's worth bumping, especially if we are going to talk consistency, there is not a TL1 -> TL5 jump for a non-3 stage evolution.

The other two pokemon I'll mention are Ferrothorn- it deserves a decline for two reasons-, while it's movepool is good, with nearly every pokemon line in existence carrying either fire or fighting attacks, it's not particuarly, or as good defensively as it is in the game, and it has the Cradily problem of bad movement, combined with, while admittedly good for a Gen 5 poke, a shallow and not very wide movepool. Also Ferroseed is terrible, and Thorn should be TL3.

Hydreigon should be TL5 for the sole reason that the mass production of Moonblast + Dazzling Gleam to a lot of things, and that terrible fairy weakness with few ways to counter it has drastically hurt that entire line's useability.

Spinda- it's bad, and its movepool is awful even for a normal, I don't think it needs to go up, or Audino should go up more than Spinda should since it's a mini-Chansey, giving up movepool for defenses
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:20 AM   #28
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One lurker's opinion:

> Metang/Metagross

While gaining a weakness to the omnipresent Shadow Ball is an issue, let's take a minute and remember that while Steel took a defensive hit, it also got a pretty solid offensive gain. Metagross is now an absolutely fantastic fairy killer. That Gardevoir people want to put at TL5? Aside from Shadow Ball (which it only gets 2 uses of max unless sig I think) it literally cannot touch Metagross. Or Steel types in general. Of course, getting to easily wreck one type of pokemon in exchange for increased vulnerability to others probably still gives it a bump to TL5 (although dropping it certainly makes it more able to kill fairies), but Steel's increased offensive use is probably worth keeping in mind.

And don't go dropping Metang down to TL2. Keep it at TL3. It may be less powerful, but it's not dropping down to the same power as the likes of the mediocre bugs or anything. Also, Metang at TL2 will probably make it the uplevel for every newbie who realizes what an uplevel is.

> Bronzor/Bronzong

Let's not forget about these two! Also Steel/Psychic. Bronzor I think is still worth keeping at TL2. I guess you could argue Bronzong to TL4, but that'd be a bad argument. Keep them as is and just bring down Metagross a level.

> Grass Types

They're not that good. Don't break your backs trying to make them good. Gamefreak sure as hell isn't.

> Trevenant/Gourgeist

Probably not TL4 material... but I guess it's best to wait and see what the grass type steroid is before making that call.

> Mawile TL3

Yes. Steel/Fairy is crazy silly good in terms of typing. 2 2x weaknesses, 5 neutral, and everything else is resisted or an immunity. Steel covers both of Fairy's weaknesses, and Fairy helps one of Steel's. Unless I'm mindfarting and steel doesn't resist poison in ASB. And unlike Klefki, Mawile has more than five offensive moves and is ergo actually worth using.

> Vivillon TL1

Yes. idk why it was TL2 in the first place, as I don't think it gets much, if anything, that the other butterflys don't already have.

>Pyroar TL2

Poor guy. Honestly I don't think he'll get used at either level because of how much of a movepool he doesn't have, but the few people who do want to use him will probably be happy to have him at TL2. His size may make him a bit imposing for many in TL2, but with such little diversity in moves it'll probably work out fine.

> Bouffalant

In TL3... he fits, but he's still a poor man's Tauros and he's never gonna get used if he's at the same TL as poor man's Tauros. But in TL2, his movepool is just a bit too good combined with his physical size to make him tricky to deal with. Similar to Pyroar, except Pyroar's way easier for a TL2 'mon to deal with.

> Fossils

Rampardos has a solid movepool so maybe make an exception, but aside from that drop the fossils to TL3. I guess Tyrantrum can stay TL4... but then again Kush's Internal Consistency Alarm may want to put the fossils at the same TL, or at least each pair at the same TL. Armaldo/Cradily are definitely TL3 worthy though.

> Hydreigon TL5

While fairy hysteria is, well, hysteria, a 4x weakness is not to be forgotten. That said, I think the hydra is probably a really good reason to bring Metagross to TL5 too, because loldarkpulsespam. And, you could keep it at TL6 because the dispersion of fairy moves is just really really bad, and the fact that one of its types is now capable of hitting steel types is just plain good. Plus the standard strong movepool of dragons. I don't think it's gonna get called in as an uplevel anytime soon, but I think hydreigon is still solidly TL5 material.

> Drop the Nidos

The second stages may call for a TL2 drop, but the King/Queen are (embarrassingly small height/weight aside. Seriously gamefreak, what are you smoking) TL4 material by no question. That movepool is ridiculous. They're like Rhydon but smaller and with better typing (though it's hard to be worse than ground/rock). Plus poison hits fairies super-effectively, so that's also nice to have around because everybody wants to worry about fairies.

> Gardevoir/Gallade

Bleh. Keep them at TL4. Gardevoir can't touch steel types. It's got a good support movepool, but offensively it's somewhat limited. Plus, if you bump it to TL5, you're saying it's stronger than Clefable. Which is kindof, well, wrong.

> Drapion

Getting to hit steel types is nice, but aside from that it got two new moves this gen: Infestation and Fell Stinger. Yes, it only has one weakness, but it has very little in the way of resistances as well. And the strength of its defensive typing hasn't really changed at all this gen. I don't think it needs to be locked to TL5. Unless you want the Nidos to get more use, keep it at TL4.

> Heliolisk

TL3 please. That movepool is not great. Better than Pyroar's, but not TL4 worthy.

> Clawitzer/Meowstic/Malamar

These three are all worth discussing for TL3/TL4. Their movepools are solid for a new-gen 'mon, sure, but eh. Clawitzer is probably capable of holding his own in TL4, but I don't think Meowstic is, and Malamar is iffy (though it's certainly more capable than Meganium) but Internal Consistency may save it.

> Aurorus

TL8. Amaura is too cute to be allowed to evolve.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:25 AM   #29
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Gardevoir also gets Fire Punch and neutral NornL moves.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:40 AM   #30
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Quote:
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Gardevoir also gets Fire Punch and neutral NornL moves.
And Focus Miss. So giving it HP Fighting is worth it.
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Old 02-10-2014, 10:44 AM   #31
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Yeah. Like, it's bad against Steels, but it's really not that bad.
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Old 02-10-2014, 12:48 PM   #32
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Also, Will-O-Wisp.

I think the main things we see with Gardevoir as reasons to raise its level are:
1) It and Gallade are quite popular. Pokemon that are popular tend to be used more often, so we often see the better sides of them. They get thrust into the limelight a bit more because people learn quick how to use them at least passably.
2) Although its offensive movepool is not godsly, its coverage, combined with its support movepool and new advantages of the Fairy type, make it seem more threatening. However, the Fairy type is still new, so it's not as easy to gauge how much better it makes Gardevoir. Although I'm sure we can all (or, at least, most of us) agree that Gardevoir is definitely better for it.

I think Gardevoir is fine at TL4 for the time. Simply put, I don't think there's enough display of Gardevoir's qualities since Gen VI has been implemented to see if it warrants change. Also, I don't quite see Gallade as TL5-good, since internal consistency seems to be god.

I also think Kirlia was fine before it was raised to TL3. I think TL2 fits it better.

I support Metagross and Hydreigon both dropping to TL5. The former had its number of weaknesses double overnight, and the latter getting an obscenely exploitable 4x weakness that a certain move of (Dazzling Gleam) seems to have been given out like candy of the non-rage variety. We saw what happened to Exeggutor's usability when Signal Beam was given to everything. It's not like Dragonite's 3x weakness to Ice, either, where he has a million ways to counter, a huge support pool, and six generations of moves to rely on, not to mention type-enhanced flight. And even then, a lot of people opt for Dragonair instead, due to the lack of said weakness.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:18 PM   #33
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So on Skype we're talking about Metagross and I'm being swayed towards agreeing with TL5. This brings me to other TL5 and TL6 pokémon - are there any that deserve dropping down? ANything that should be up that high that currently isn't?
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:25 PM   #34
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I personally feel like Kingdra is a bit iffy, but maybe that's just me.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:28 PM   #35
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It's not stellar, it just super resists a number of things. I can argue for it to be TL4 in my head so TL5 is probably appropriate.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:41 PM   #36
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Remember that we want stuff to be spread. No point in having six trainer levels if there's like two things at TL6.

Metagross is still better than the majority of TL5 available mon, I say it stays at 6. It's probably in the top ten 'mon available.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:45 PM   #37
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That would be my only argument against pulling Kingdra down. Similarly, it makes me want to bring a few 3s down and 1s up.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:52 PM   #38
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I'd be reluctant to bring 1's up. People often stick with things they start with, the more variety we give new people the better for variety across the league. Basically every lowest evo that isn't either insanely powerful or ridiculously OU.
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Old 02-11-2014, 04:53 PM   #39
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I think TL1 is diverse enough, it even has bloody Dragon types.
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Old 02-11-2014, 09:13 PM   #40
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Abomasnow is TL3? That doesn't seem right for some reason.

You solved a bunch of the itchiest problems, like baby Pokemon and stuff like Venomoth and Gothitelle who were in the same TL as some of their biggest competitors. You get a well done in my book.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:16 PM   #41
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Is that it from you guys?
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:24 PM   #42
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Possibly move Rhyhorn to 2? Between bulk, good SC, and having access to 10 different offensive offtypes, I don't think it's poor typing alone is enough to justify it being three levels lower than its bipedal evolution.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:25 PM   #43
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Ah, that's a good idea actually.
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:37 PM   #44
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Heracross 2 -> 1? It's pretty sucky.

EDIT the first: And Vespiquen 3 -> 2? It's not really two levels better than Butterfree.
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:19 PM   #45
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Mienshao --> Lv.2?

I mean, it's not any better than the hitmons (which can be acquired at Lv.2) and may even be arguable worse.
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Old 02-20-2014, 09:21 PM   #46
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Instead of lowering Shao, why don't we bring the Hitmons up? Never understood why they were TL2 anyways.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:09 PM   #47
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Movepool problems and inability to Submission well.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:31 PM   #48
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Heracross 2 -> 1? It's pretty sucky.

EDIT the first: And Vespiquen 3 -> 2? It's not really two levels better than Butterfree.
Seconded.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:01 PM   #49
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One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the Bronzor line.

I would consider dropping them to 1 and 3 respectively. Ghost and Dark weakness severely hurt them now, and they really don't have the movepool to handle them if I'm right. While they can deal with fairies and are inorganic, gaining two common weaknesses don't do them any good.
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:06 PM   #50
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And that's all she wrote.
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