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Old 12-09-2013, 05:26 AM   #276
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Mew, here is the calculator. Very handy tool to support arguments and quick damage calcs during battles ;)

Tha Showdown Damage Calculator

Edit: And another fun fact about Jolly Talon. It lets you outspeed other Talon.
Jolly has it's use on Banded sets that way too, Choice Band Jolly does more damage than LO Adamant even though you miss out on a few guaranteed OHKO's.
And with Jolly you're guaranteed to get of a U-Turn that way without taking damage from mons that would otherside outspeed and KO.

But that said, my preferred Talonflame set is the suicide set. (LO, Adamant, SD / BB / FB / Roost)
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:05 AM   #277
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:55 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Mercutio View Post
Play nice ladies :p
...what?

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Originally Posted by Escalion View Post
Mew, here is the calculator. Very handy tool to support arguments and quick damage calcs during battles ;)

Tha Showdown Damage Calculator

Edit: And another fun fact about Jolly Talon. It lets you outspeed other Talon.
Jolly has it's use on Banded sets that way too, Choice Band Jolly does more damage than LO Adamant even though you miss out on a few guaranteed OHKO's.
And with Jolly you're guaranteed to get of a U-Turn that way without taking damage from mons that would otherside outspeed and KO.

But that said, my preferred Talonflame set is the suicide set. (LO, Adamant, SD / BB / FB / Roost)
Ah, I see. Thank you.

Very well, then. Although, as I said, no one in their right mind would run Jolly Talonflame without an offensive item. Which mean Volcarona is threatened too much. Volcarona has become incredibly rare now, since the Smogon tiers are based on usage, which usually goes hand in hand with viability, but not always. For example, I have found Sawsbuck to have just as good offensive potential as Venusaur, if not more. A common wall to Sun Teams, Latias, is destroyed by Megahorn. Volcarona shall probably drop down. Of course, I may as well be incorrect about this, but we shall see.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:10 AM   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mew The Gato View Post
Priority Roost, Swords Dance, Flare Blitz and priority Brave Bird more than make up for Talonflame's average stats besides Speed and even the Stealth Rock weakness. Checks for Talonflame are few and far between. Anything that is not a check will surely take massive damage. Unless you have Rotom-W, a bulky Rock Type or some other actual check, you are in for a dangerous time.
You are assuming of course that Talonflame will be able to get a Swords Dance boost in. Often times people play terribly with Talonflame, even good people, and so it ends up that their Talonflame gets Thunder Wave'd or runs into Stealth Rock. Most Pokemon are checks believe it or not, because Brave Bird has massive recoil.

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Besides, Talonflame has partners. Starmie and Excadrill are both very good for dealing with Talonflame's checks, especially the latter, which can even deal with Rotom-W due to Mold Breaker, provided it switches in safely and Rotom-W does not have a Choice Scarf. With so many new powerhouses this generation, Rotom-W's typing is pretty much the only thing it has going for it, besides fairly bulky Volt Switching.
Starmie isn't very good this generation. The lack of rain means it doesn't hit hard at all. If Excadrill is switching in safely on Rotom-W, you are playing Rotom-W completely and totally wrong. You do not just spam Volt Switch. Spamming volt Switch is going to make you lose. Also, if Rotom-W is physically defensive, which is quite common, Excadrill needs a boosting item to OHKO it, which most don't run because they want the extra bulk.

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Talonflame is also an excellent partner for Mega Kangaskhan, who dislikes faster Fighting Types, which Talonflame can easily counter. Furthermore, Mega Kangaskhan easily sets up on most Rock Types with Power-Up Punch.
There aren't many faster Fighting types this generation. I personally would like to see Terrakion being used more as its the perfect check to both of these Pokemon.

Quote:
Jolteon has incredible Speed without any assistance like Choice Scarf, along with good Special Attack. It is not necessarily outclassed by Rotom-W. Under its typing, Rotom-W hides very low HP. Jolteon has the potential to Baton Pass, along with dealing with things like Keldeo. (Talking about Generation V, as Jolteon has not been tested yet in Generation VI.) Rotom-W and Jolteon share the Electric Typing and Volt Switch, but the latter functions very differently, so the former does not outclass it.
There isn't a role that Jolteon does that Rotom-W can't do better. It's only moment of fame at all last generation was being a check to Torny-T. It can't handle Ferrothorn like Rotom-W can, and Rotom-W has Trick, so it can use Specs more effectively then Jolteon can. And now with Thundurus being OU Jolteon is outclassed at absolutely everything.

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Talonflame is incredibly popular. The tiers are highly influenced by usage, and Talonflame's presence shall most definitely be another threat to Volcarona.
The same logic should have applied last gen with Terrkion, Politoed, Torny-T, Heatran, etc existing. But it didn't, Volcarona was still known as one of the most powerful Pokemon in the meta.

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You say Volcarona beats Talonflame one on one if it lacks Life Orb? Think again.

252 Attack EVs Talonflame's Brave Bird with Leftovers Vs. 252 HP EVs / 252 Defense EVs Volcarona = OHKO.

And since Talonflame has no reason to not run maximum Attack EVs, Talonflame shall always beat Volcarona. Volcarona's fall is not about being outclassed by Talonflame. It is about the fact that Talonflame is so popular that Volcarona can no longer remain anywhere as viable due to Talonflame's offensive presence.
You say its Talonflame's offensive presence, but if you are running a Rain team(for Hurricane Volcarona) or Sun, you already have a way to get rid of Talonflame and keep it from threatening Volcarona. Again, the same logic could have been applied to Terrakion last gen, but it didn't.

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Originally Posted by Mew The Gato View Post
Not really. Jolteon is not as viable a Pokemon now in Generation VI anymore, with so many hard hitters running around, especially Excadrill, whose huge HP allows it to take a hit from Jolteon and usually OHKO back if the latter does not have Air Balloon. Even if it does, Excadrill still stands a high chance of winning, due to the Hidden Power nerf. I have personally never encountered one in Generation VI. Besides, it can be dealt with incredibly easily by a wide array of Pokemon.
Then why did you oh so adamantly disagree that Jolteon is kinda useless when Rotom-W existed? The same was true last generation. Stop disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

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Besides, with a Pokemon such as Talonflame, Jolly is a waste. If someone does have Jolly and maximum Speed, they shall most likely run an offensive item, leading to having over a 60% chance to OHKO Volcarona. They shall only run Leftovers or something if they use Adamant, as then they can invest more EVs to make Talonflame a little bulkier.
Jolly helps with quite a few things(including the Talonflame match-up).

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At least that is what a person in their right mind would do.
I've been doing what people in their right mind wouldn't do, and have done quite well.

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Besides, I doubt Bulky Volcarona is common enough to make Volcarona stand any chance.
Despite it being probably the most popular set in Gen V(it is to be noted after I tried it out).

Last edited by Emi; 12-09-2013 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:16 AM   #280
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Terrakion doesn't enjoy PuP from MegaKang though.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:20 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by redpanda15 View Post
Terrakion doesn't enjoy PuP from MegaKang though.
This is kinda irrevalent(also know as CHECCCCCKKKKKKKKK) since Terrakion is faster IIRC.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:45 AM   #282
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I just meant that you shouldn't expect to switch in much.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:48 AM   #283
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Well yeah, of course you aren't. You can be smart though and have it revenge kill.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:18 PM   #284
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Jolly lets you outspeed Modest jolteon. Which are somewhat common.
With 65/60 defenses Jolteon won't stand a chance against Talonflame after Swords Dance. Saying that it allows you to counter other Talonflame is a bit redundant as well because no decent player is going to switch in Talonflame for the 50/50 chance of a KO.

Just face it, with a STAB 120 Priority move Adamant is always going to be the better ability.
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Old 12-10-2013, 08:01 AM   #285
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You are assuming of course that Talonflame will be able to get a Swords Dance boost in. Often times people play terribly with Talonflame, even good people, and so it ends up that their Talonflame gets Thunder Wave'd or runs into Stealth Rock. Most Pokemon are checks believe it or not, because Brave Bird has massive recoil.
With priority STAB Brave Bird, it is incredibly easy to force out a Pokemon and set up Swords Dance on the switch. Even after Thunder Wave, Talonflame poses a threat with priority Brave Bird. Talonflame is not the weak Pokemon its stats imply, it is a powerhouse. Staraptor got to Borderline without Swords Dance. Granted, it had better coverage, but still no Swords Dance. Talonflame is faster, has Gale Wings, which makes it incredibly hard to revenge kill, and he is not going to be left in on something like Rotom-W. Not that too many things can wall a Pokemon with incredible STAB Moves, priority Roost, and Swords Dance, along with incredibly high Speed and decent Attack.

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Starmie isn't very good this generation. The lack of rain means it doesn't hit hard at all. If Excadrill is switching in safely on Rotom-W, you are playing Rotom-W completely and totally wrong. You do not just spam Volt Switch. Spamming volt Switch is going to make you lose. Also, if Rotom-W is physically defensive, which is quite common, Excadrill needs a boosting item to OHKO it, which most don't run because they want the extra bulk.
Who said Excadrill needs extra bulk? There is something called offensive Rapid Spin. Not to mention Excadrill can beat most, if not all Spin Blockers on the switch in. And in a later point, you said that Rain beats Talonflame. Now you say Starmie doesnot hit hard at all due to the nerf to weather. Consistency?

And pray tell, does Starmie need to always be offensive, with Natural Cure and Recover? Granted, it was better before, but it is not that bad now, either.

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There aren't many faster Fighting types this generation. I personally would like to see Terrakion being used more as its the perfect check to both of these Pokemon.
Keldeo remains a threat this Generation. It has good bulk, great Speed and awesome Special Attack, along with Secret Sword. And Talonflame can take it down.

It also takes down Chestnaught, Celebi, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Forretress, and Mega Lucario down, all of which are threats this generation. Although the latter needs to be running Bullet Punch. Of course, Bullet Punch is stronger on Mega Lucario than Extremespeed, due to Adaptibility.

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There isn't a role that Jolteon does that Rotom-W can't do better. It's only moment of fame at all last generation was being a check to Torny-T. It can't handle Ferrothorn like Rotom-W can, and Rotom-W has Trick, so it can use Specs more effectively then Jolteon can. And now with Thundurus being OU Jolteon is outclassed at absolutely everything.
Fun fact: Generation V and Generation VI are different. Do not make them overlap.

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The same logic should have applied last gen with Terrkion, Politoed, Torny-T, Heatran, etc existing. But it didn't, Volcarona was still known as one of the most powerful Pokemon in the meta.
Tornadus-T became Uber. Heatran did not pose an offensive threat against Volcarona, whose Standard set runs Hidden Power Ground. Politoed could do little once Volcarona set up. Terrakion was its best counter, yet could not switch in due to Hidden Power Ground / Giga Drain.

Quote:
You say its Talonflame's offensive presence, but if you are running a Rain team(for Hurricane Volcarona) or Sun, you already have a way to get rid of Talonflame and keep it from threatening Volcarona. Again, the same logic could have been applied to Terrakion last gen, but it didn't.
You yourself stated weather has been nerfed too much.

Quote:
Then why did you oh so adamantly disagree that Jolteon is kinda useless when Rotom-W existed? The same was true last generation. Stop disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.
The same was not true last Generation. Jolteon could boost and Baton Pass, did not need Choice Items to be fast, and thus was better offensively.

They are different generations.

Quote:
Jolly helps with quite a few things(including the Talonflame match-up).
If Jolly were more popular, it would still be a Speed tie, most likely. If Adamant is more popular, the same applies. Besides, no one shall run Jolly without an offensive item, which still gives Talonflame a high chance of OHKOing Volcarona.

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I've been doing what people in their right mind wouldn't do, and have done quite well.
What exactly have you done?

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Despite it being probably the most popular set in Gen V(it is to be noted after I tried it out).
I am extremely doubtful that people would sacrifice Volcarona's Speed, Special Attack and movepool for a physically bulky set, which needs a Quiver Dance boost to do anything.
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Old 12-11-2013, 08:25 PM   #286
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Has anyone made fun of Gardevoir's Mega Evolution yet?

And why did she get one of the earliest ones? Does Nintendo secretly harbour a crush or was it the internet's thunderous obsession?
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Old 12-12-2013, 04:48 AM   #287
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Has anyone made fun of Gardevoir's Mega Evolution yet?

And why did she get one of the earliest ones? Does Nintendo secretly harbour a crush or was it the internet's thunderous obsession?
I'm reserving judgment until I can see the actual animations. Stuff like "Does her dress move with her," "how graceful is she," "does the dress feel natural." She's got a lot to live up to, though, considering how BAMMIN SLAMMIN new Gardevoir is.

Nintendo added the Fairy type and Gardevoir is now retyped to Fairy, that's why. Did you notice her ability was "Pixillate"?
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Old 12-12-2013, 10:49 PM   #288
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Did you notice her ability was "Pixillate"?
Wow.
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