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Old 08-12-2013, 01:55 PM   #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilbluecorsola View Post
I recalled the second clue from the game. However, I don't think it's as "glaring" as the above for first-time viewers. So far the animé itself has given no indication that the second clue bears any meaning other than what it appears, at least one that leads you directly to the culprit.
I added a specification to the box. Not that my theories are any more crazy or over-analyzing than what other members have suggested so far. I hope?
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:34 PM   #252
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I think perhaps you've said too much ^_^;

I haven't seen the episode yet, plan to do it today. I do want to jump in the discussion a little bit as to the events that happened in the episode, so I'll be back in a bit.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:36 PM   #253
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Kaisap didn't you already read the Let's Play/play the game? If so then you shouldn't you really not be posting stuff like that?
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:50 PM   #254
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I only read Kaisa's first clue, but it was enough to pretty much confirm who the culprit is (unless she's just trolling us), so I can definitely see what the Let's Play viewers are thinking.

(don't click the next two boxes if you avoided Kaisa's first clue)

Spoiler: show
That stated, you could say that she spoiled it the moment she said "This week's is really obvious", which it honestly wouldn't have been had she not made that comment. Because, in the absence of such a comment, the TV viewer can't decide whether Celestia's numerous suspicious things are just the writers writing up a good red herring to fool us or whether they really are painfully obvious clues that she's behind all of this. But by declaring the episode to indeed be "really obvious," well, that more or less nerfs the possibility of Celestia being a red herring. And since no one else really stands out as much as Celestia does, it makes you focus your lasers in on her -- which we all did, then, when re-watching the episode -- and to notice that, yeah, she's like 95% certainly Yamada's killer. (Whether she's Ishimaru's killer or not too remains to be seen.)

As for the karera clue, I actually honed in on that word all three times I watched the episodes, believe it or not, but I didn't put 2 and 2 together that there was no way Celestia should have known at the time she uttered that word that more than one person had been murdered. (Naegi and the others had only just returned to the infirmary and had yet to tell her what had happened to Ishimaru.) So like, I noticed the word but not the significance behind her uttering it.

As for it being a pronoun used only for multiple dudes, not necessarily, but typically. I'm pretty sure that the rule with karera is that at least one person in the group must be male. It doesn't mean that both must be. If (for example) it had been Yamada and Aoi who had been struck down, Celestia could've still used karera. The ra is just a pluralizing suffix, like tachi, and so you only need one guy in the group to lead off with kare. Anyway, my point is it's not the gender that makes the clue relevant -- it's the plurality. The English analogue is that she said "them" instead of "him." Who cares whether "them" meant a guy + a girl or whether it meant a guy + another guy? All that matters is that she's saying "them" when she's only supposed to know that one person's been killed.

Spoiler: show
The thing is, with or without Kaisa, we all still would've suspected Celestia. She was just way too poor an actress when she pretended to be concerned about Yamada -- like, it was really wooden acting ^^; -- and the mallets are just really obviously there from the art room. Everything in the episode, on close inspection (which we would have done anyway), points to Celestia and Yamada working together, and then Celestia backstabbing Yamada.

So no, I don't feel like Kaisa ruined this arc ... but yes, I do feel like if you're going to get upset with her for anything, you should probably have gotten upset days ago when she first opened her mouth. ^^;

Kaisa: ;_;

The moral of the story, I guess, is that this is why you have to be careful when you're someone who already knows how things play out and you're trying to mingle with people who don't.

P.S. Don't worry, Kaisa. I'm just waiting for the moment I fuck up and spoil you guys on Rozen Maiden: Zurückspulen. ^_^;
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:33 PM   #255
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I only read Kaisa's first clue, but it was enough to pretty much confirm who the culprit is (unless she's just trolling us), so I can definitely see what the Let's Play viewers are thinking.

(don't click the next two boxes if you avoided Kaisa's first clue)

Spoiler: show
The thing is, with or without Kaisa, we all still would've suspected Celestia. She was just way too poor an actress when she pretended to be concerned about Yamada -- like, it was really wooden acting ^^;
Spoiler: show
Despite having read the LP and knowing what happens, I didn't feel Celestia's performance was so out of place as I was watching. *shrug* In general I guess I'm not really a fan of her voice, feels too flat in the first place. ^^;
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:03 PM   #256
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Talon will be glad to know that he has another lab rat.

At Episode 3 now, will post with thoughts upon finishing the rest.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:38 PM   #257
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No, Yuki, the thing is, I never read this thread anymore until I've seen the episode myself first, and ...

(don't click unless you've read Kaisa's first clue for Episode 06)
Spoiler: show
even without Kaisa or any other human being saying anything, when I watched the episode it really stood out to me just how wooden and fake Celestia's acting seemed. It was like she was in total Mock Overdrive for how little she actually was scared about Yamada. Like, in a different way than her normal kinda emotionless tone. This was really wooden acting.

So on that specific point, I have to disagree. I dunno, maybe to you that didn't stand out, but I know it sure did me.
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Old 08-15-2013, 11:40 AM   #258
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:00 PM   #259
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Episode 6 & 7 thoughts combined and an analysis on some of the comments here on Episode 6:

Spoiler: show
First of all, I'm surprised at how decently abridged that was. I didn't like the rushing around bit during the whole murder scenario in Ep 6, but it wasn't terrible. Also the investigation in 7 which was only 3 minutes long, but it wasn't really necessary. Most of the evidence any viewer needed was already in 6.

Which brings me to my next point: I was astonished at the detective work here on UPN prior to seeing episode 6. Bravo, all of you, especially Talon, who nailed what happened to a tee except for the bit about Celestia's finger charm (it's not actually poisonous, and I personally never even considered the possibility). After viewing the episode myself I will say the show made it painfully more obvious that Celestia probably did it. She was very out of character during the situation in 6: Acting shocked and frightened and concerned, since when does Celestia show concern?

So obviously in the game it was a lot more difficult. I didn't know until the trial rolled around who did it. I didn't think it was Hagakure, it seemed obvious he was being framed. but I was suspicious of Fukawa/Syo. But I pretty much figured out Yamada murdered Ishimaru, but the question was: Who murdered Yamada? And I was actually pretty stumped, but the show seemingly placed a big arrow over Celestia's head. Regardless, I have to give kudos to all of you (who guessed Celestia) for getting it spot on. Bravo.

Admittedly sad to see her go. Celestia was my second favorite behind Kirigiri (I just thought she was cute in a menacing way).

But: What was that at the end? Not only is it a hidden room, but it's a hidden room with books? Why is there a hidden room with books in the men's room? And why did the student register have a note in it that said "You mustn't leave this place?" And why was Sakura fighting Monokuma? And who was the masked culprit who struck Naegi and knocked him out!? WHY ARE THERE SO MANY QUESTIONS!?

Still felt rushed to me, but whatever. Probably one of the better DR episodes so far. Celestia's death was over the top (burned at the stake and then hit with a truck... I mean really?) but yes. Three more students dead.

Survivors: Aoi, Sakura, Togami, Fukawa/Syo, Naegi, Kirigiri, Hagakure

Dead: Chihiro, Ohwada, Ishimaru, Celestia, Maizono, Leon, Junko, Yamada
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:43 PM   #260
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Episode 7:

Spoiler: show
I absolutely knew there was something off about that statement that Celestia said, but I guess I didn't quite catch on to the main point of it. Something in the back of my mind was just telling me that it was wrong and I guess I was right. Well done my-subconscience!

Celestia's turn of character from calm and charming, to stupid psycho bitch, seemed pretty dumb to me. Of all characters to flip like that Celes would be the last person I'd expect it from and I thought it was kinda stupid. I thought it was honorable the way she went out smiling and happy, but man her 'Burned at the stake and ironically hit by a fire truck' death made me laugh for a while. That shit was funny.

As for the ending stuff... I dunno. I didn't really get a sense of wanting to know what happens next and the cliffhanger didn't realy do anything for me, but I was more left with a feeling of 'What the fuck just happened?' It might be to do with the music in the background that always plays that seemed far too upbeat for me to take it seriously, but that might just be me.

Either way I'm starting to enjoy the detective work stuff. This is one of those series thats better to watch whilst its airing because of discussion about the culprit and such, and not something to marathon one after the other (like I do with most shows I watch ).
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Old 08-16-2013, 09:35 PM   #261
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Episode 07:

Spoiler: show
So ... we called it.

First off, thanks to Deo for the compliments about nailing the case. Second, a bit of advice for Kaisa and anyone else who's played the game or watched a Let's Play of it: please refrain from ever again telling us whether the anime made it obvious or not. ^_^; In any mystery, one of the biggest doubts the viewer/reader must always have with an obvious suspect is "Is this person obvious because they really are the killer? Or are they obvious because they're a red herring set up by the author to lead me astray?" The moment you tell us that a case is obvious, we can rule out the possibility of a red herring and just shop around for the most obvious candidate; the moment you do the opposite, we can likewise rule out anyone who seems to have obviously done it. Third, I feel like we would've all figured this out anyway even without Kaisa or anyone else saying things which naturally led us to suspect Celestia. Because the episode, just as she was trying to innocently say herself, really did do a hell of an inappropriate job making it blatantly obvious that this was a tag team killing with Celestia using Yamada and then killing him once she was done with him.

Now, as for the episode itself ...

I really didn't like how rushed it was. This felt like the most rushed courtroom case we've had yet. I'd say that Chihiro's and Ohwada's courtroom scene had the best pacing, followed by Sayaka's and Leon's, followed by this one.

I really, really didn't like how little attention was given to poor Ishimaru throughout this. Both in Episodes 06 and 07, it felt like both the mourning he received and the attention paid to his role in the mystery were so minimal. Probably one of the million and one things that's better in the video game, but that's neither here nor there: I'm judging the anime based on its own merits, and I'm saying that the anime stunk in this regard.

I agree with Midgeorge 100% about Celestia's meltdown: it was unwelcome.

Gotta say, when it comes to the one part that I got wrong, I like my version better. The reality ended up being that Celestia's name is Yasuhiro Taeko and so the dying Yamada was trying to identify her as the culprit when he said her name. My theory had been that he was still cooperating with Celestia, oblivious to the fact that she had betrayed him, and that he was framing Yasuhiro (Hagakure) while thinking he was entering into a drug-induced sleep. Yeah, the poisoned finger talon thing is something that's shown up in a number of stories over the years, but I totally thought that that was where we were going with Celestia. Disappointed in the writers that it was ultimately nothing more than a quirky adornment.

Maybe the game explores this better, but I never really got any sense of Celestia and Kyouko being rivals who respected one another. That was the vibe the episode seemed to be going for at the very end, as Celestia approached her and shook her hand before heading off to the execution chamber. It just seemed to come out of nowhere, with one frustrating exception: the OP credits, which had tantalizingly hinted at it all season long. I was really wanting to see some more Kyouko vs. Celestia mind games, but we sure didn't get any of that here.

As for the final scenes in the episode ...
  • While Kyouko is a good detective who explores every square inch of her confinement, I think that the fact that she located the secret room in the men's bathroom is intended as supporting evidence for the likely fact that this isn't Kyouko's first time playing the survival game. (Whether because the entire gang is reliving this hell again and again and again, as has been hinted at previously, or whether because Kyouko was the winner of a previous survival game with a bunch of different kids, either / or.)
  • The fact that Naegi wasn't executed pretty much proves that his assailant was the mole.
  • If we can assume anything about Naegi's assailant's identity based on physical build, we can rule out Ohgami Sakura since there's no way that that's her.
  • It's all sorts of suspicious / weird that Kyouko was able to locate this room without any problems (wasn't attacked, books weren't removed) but that when Naegi does it he gets knocked out and the evidence is all removed. If one wants to suspect that Kyouko assailed Naegi, this would certainly fit in with that.
  • the bit at the end with Sakura is clearly meant to excite the viewer into suspecting that perhaps Sakura is the mole, but there's just no way. I'm going to be 0% surprised when I tune in next week and the episode opens with this very scene ... and we see that Sakura was simply amicably sparring with Monokuma because a) she needed a sparring partner and b) he actually agreed to it.

We're over halfway through now, and so far I'm not really seeing the magic that so captured the hearts and minds of the franchise's biggest fans. But it's been entertaining enough, I suppose. And like Midgeorge, I agree that what is making this one fun to keep watching is that a lot of us are all still discussing it. There's a lot of similarities to this experience and last fall's Sword Art Online, where again the community all sort of came together and watched it ... even though it too was by no means as good of an anime as the fanboys were saying it was.

And besides: at least it isn't Shingeki no Kyojin.
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:29 PM   #262
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Thoughts on the episode (no spoilers past ep 7 etc)

Spoiler: show
I liked the episode but it was ruuuushed. It was a freaking double murder, how did they expect to do that in half an ep since the first half was the investigation. I really with this show had like 2-3 more episodes since this pacing really kills the feel of it. Oh well.


Also if we get another spoiler dealy talking about stuff I'm going to limit this thread to only people who haven't played/knows what happens and I don't want to do that. No direct or indirect spoilers.
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Old 08-16-2013, 11:32 PM   #263
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Also if we get another spoiler dealy talking about stuff I'm going to limit this thread to only people who haven't played/knows what happens and I don't want to do that. No direct or indirect spoilers.
I don't understand, everything I said in my post was entirely within the boundaries of what's currently happening in the anime
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:00 AM   #264
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Brief commentary on the execution of this episode. No spoilers beyond ep 7 within.

Spoiler: show
Celestia's execution is actually one of my favorites. She's set up to be burned at the stake and get this wonderful, dramatic, exaggerated, romantic, western death that she really wanted in her sick and twisted heart, and at the last moment, Monobear takes even that away from her by brutally smashing her with a firetruck.
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:38 AM   #265
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I think the assailant was Kirigiri. She's wearing gloves like Kirigiri did, and only Kirigiri and Monokuma would know that Naegi was entering the hidden room. Moreover, a full-body suit like that suggests the assailant was female, since one wouldn't go to such great extends to disguise the whole body unless the gender was female (see: 999!). Monokuma isn't participating in the game, but if Kirigiri wanted to kill Naegi, doing it in that room where his body couldn't be found or knocking him out to take the time to kill another would kill any/all alibis or way to trace his killer.

As far as the letter, "YOU CANNOT LEAVE THIS PLACE", Naegi seems to have written it, or he may have engraved that desire deep into his heart, beyond where superficial memories are capable of reaching. A similar concept appeared in Little Busters where a character, memory impaired, acted on an impulse from subliminal feelings he carried from one time to the next. Muv-Luv Alternative is nothing but this, too.

However, I'm skeptical that Dangan Ronpa is going to involve a sci-fi twist like that. When one has a show with a surreal element like Monokuma, it's tough to determine if there's a super-natural element (which I still don't know), the story is sci-fi, or whatnot. For examples, Shingeki no Kyojin didn't appear to be a shounen-type anime until humans turned into titans at will. For some folks, that completely shattered the realism of setting by introducing an absurd element, a super-power.

Given Dangan Ronpa is following the mystery genre, and mysteries never resort to supernatural elements except when referring to ancient legends of little importance directly to the case, I'm going to guess that Naegi isn't a ghost, as suggested by the ending. I'd also rule out time looping or something similarly physics bending sci-fi, just because the level of tech in the mysteries and the school is relatively ordinary. Naegi (or Kirigiri) are likely either veterans of a previous pandemonium court game, whose memories are wiped prior to each "session". They likely had interactions in the past, but those relationships were wiped and had to be built again.

In this vein, perhaps Naegi is the "villain", a mad genius and the creator of Monokuma, and Kirigiri is the "heroine", the detective meant to stop him, and the two are operating without memories but are secretly fulfilling their roles. Naegi's motivation is entertainment, or at least the desire to sow despair and witness suffering and tragedy, which is Monokuma's objective. Kirigiri seeks to oppose him.


On "the mole"

Spoiler: show
If Celestia wasn't the mole, I'm going to go with Sakura. Sakura is the only character left in the cast capable of killing the others but not being killed. Even if the other six were to team up, she likely wouldn't be killed by them. She could easily assassinate everyone except Asahina, then kill herself so Asahina could escape Kibougamine without resorting to trial. This capacity to kill should be pretty appealing to Monokuma, who loves violence/bloodshed and fear, and Sakura would inspire fear with her abilities.

Asahina and Hagakure are pretty useless as spies, both being iditios. Naegi and Kirigiri are out, too, since Kirigiri outright opposes Monokuma and would likely not work with him. Fukawa's personality is wrong for the role, since her goal is to live with Togami (and both can't live side by side if either kills) and Togami is too obvious, and potentially spineless. He talks big, but like Kaiba, I don't think he has what it takes to kill another. That pretty much leaves Sakura as the only possible suspect.
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Old 08-17-2013, 07:40 AM   #266
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I don't understand, everything I said in my post was entirely within the boundaries of what's currently happening in the anime
That wasn't in reference to you
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:10 AM   #267
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Episode 6&7
Spoiler: show
Yeah, Celes was the culprit as many people would have guessed. How she did it and how she tricked Yamada were 2 things I couldn't wrap my head around. The laptop idea came to mind but not like this. I'm pleasantly surprised with how it went.

Ending: Mysterious person to knock out Naegi? Perhaps the 16th person? Based on bodybuild and suit I'd have said it was Ishimaru which would explain why he'd have to wear a mask. I mean Yamada isn't the only person who could play dead :P and he never got a chance to admit he did it. (Yeah I know, extremely doubtful :P, but I'm keeping this in mind anyway.) I am still kind of puzzled why he decided to move the body anyway? I think I missed some things in the trial so I'll watch it again later.

The fact that Sakura was with Monobear doesn't necessarily mean anything right? It looks to much like it's hinting at Sakura being the traitor that it won't be in the end. But wow, I really didn't expect Sakura to be it. As for the words "You cannot leave this place", I'm guessing it's all just amusement for Monobear. Mysterious 16th member? Traitor? It's like it's being played so everyone will end up dead. I am curious how Danganronpa will handle their final episodes - if only 2 or 3 are left.

Lastly, I've always thought the executions to be morbid even if they were cartoonish so I never laughed and pretended to be sick at the fact they'd do that, but I honestly thought it was funny to suddenly show up with a fire truck and ram it into Celes who was so calm with simply being burned alive. (Sick, twisted humour.)
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:33 PM   #268
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Episode 07:

Spoiler: show
Maybe the game explores this better, but I never really got any sense of Celestia and Kyouko being rivals who respected one another. That was the vibe the episode seemed to be going for at the very end, as Celestia approached her and shook her hand before heading off to the execution chamber. It just seemed to come out of nowhere, with one frustrating exception: the OP credits, which had tantalizingly hinted at it all season long. I was really wanting to see some more Kyouko vs. Celestia mind games, but we sure didn't get any of that here.
Tbh, I think this kinda came out of nowhere in the game too.

Also I just noticed...

Spoiler: show
Fukawa's image changed to Genocider Syo's in the OP.
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Old 08-20-2013, 02:17 PM   #269
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Yeah, I noticed that change several episodes ago myself.

Looking at who we have left ...

Spoiler: show
Naegi, Kyouko, Togami, Touko, Aoi, Sakura, Yasuhiro

We basically have three pairs and then one odd man out in Yasuhiro. That means that, no matter how you slice it, one of the pairs is going to be broken up this cycle (whether as a murder victim this week or as an executed killer next week). Random theories ahoy:

Theory 1: Sakura murdered by Aoi
Sakura is seemingly unlikely to be killed by anyone given her kind personality and fearsome physical stature -- and that's precisely why I expect she will be one of the murder victims before all is said and done. Now that we're down to the final seven, this could very well be Sakura's time to go. As for her murderer, who better to assign the role in an effort to surprise players than Aoi? This theory assumes that Aoi has been putting on a facade since the very day we met her and that her true personality is that of a calculating, cold-hearted psycho bitch who will do whatever it takes to get out of here. By presenting herself as an emotionally labile girl who is best friends with Sakura and would never hurt a fly, the true Aoi (so says this theory) will have set herself up very nicely to evade detection by the other jurors as Sakura's killer. This theory also works in my mind since, of the three remaining duos, the Sakura-Aoi duo seems the least important to cling to the longest. (I'd obviously say Naegi-Kyouko trumps the others, and I'd say that Togami-Touko edges out Sakura-Aoi.) Finally, it's kind of hard to imagine Yasuhiro killing anybody. He seems more likely to be a murder victim than a murderer at this point.

Theory 2: Yasuhiro murdered by Togami
I suspect this will happen following the above theory, but it could also happen before it, sure. Going by this theory, the idea is that Togami will finally believe his time to act has come. He will kill Yasuhiro in what he believes to be the perfect crime, but ultimately Naegi and the others will be able to prove Togami's guilt and have him executed. Assuming I'm right that the deaths will go Sakura --> Aoi --> Yasuhiro --> Togami, this would then leave us with our final three: Naegi, Kyouko, and a broken-hearted Genocider Syo who no longer has anything to lose. Keep in mind that you're allowed to kill two people; so so long as Genocider manages to kill both Naegi and Kyouko before the courtroom trial commences for the first killing, she should be able to get out of here scot-free as there'd be no one to form the jury to convict her. This transforms Dangan Ronpa from a murder mystery game into a survival horror scenario as the Naegi-Kyouko duo desperately try to evade Genocider, desperate to find a way to remain alive.

Theory 3: killing Genocider in self-defense ultimately sets off the tragic ending of this game
Assuming that both of my theories above are correct, what I foresee happening is that either Naegi or Kyouko will have to kill Genocider in self-defense. After all, Genocider will be relentless; she's not going to simply give up on trying to kill the two other remaining survivors. Only killing Genocider herself will ensure their safety. So what happens then is:

Theory 3a: if Kyouko is the one to kill Genocider
I can see this going one of two ways. Either 1) Kyouko will now, tragically, have to turn on Naegi in order to ensure her own survival; or else 2) Naegi will be forced to make the most painful decision of his life at the trial, where he has to choose between his own suicide and sentencing his savior and loyalest ally to death. Either way, it'd be something worth talking about.

Theory 3b: if Naegi is the one to kill Genocider
This seems less likely to me, not only because Kyouko seems to be the one with the balls in their relationship but also because it doesn't make for as good of an ending. What would happen in this scenario is that Naegi is now forced to consider whether he will murder Kyouko or not in order to escape the facility, since obviously if they go to trial then she could very well convict him, causing him to die and buying her own escape. The two possibilities then are either a) he does in fact kill her (which seems horribly unlikely and would put a real sour taste in my mouth) or else b) he resigns himself to his fate, agrees to meet her in court, and is there dumbfounded by Kyouko's refusal to convict Naegi, bringing about her own demise. She thanks him for defending her from Genocider Syo and wishes him the best of luck.

My theories so far have been pretty awful (save for deducing how Mystery #3 went down), so we'll just have to see how right or wrong I am about these ones. But yeah, these are my current theories for how the series will play out from here.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:07 PM   #270
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Episode 08:

Spoiler: show
Quite surprised by the fact that Sakura really did end up being Monobear's agent. (Maybe. I'm still not entirely convinced that she was the one he was addressing following Mondo's execution.)

Sakura being the next to die fits in perfectly with my theories last post. Now to see whether I'm also right in suspecting that her killer was Aoi.

As for thoughts on how Sakura died ...

Obviously she was poisoned. The coughing up blood, the powder on her foot, and the specially-drawn attention to her miotic eyes all strongly suggest this. The blunt trauma to her head was likely intended to throw people off the scent. Regarding who could have poisoned her, it could've been any of them, really, but the one the anime set up to be most likely was none other than Aoi, given that she was the one who Sakura showed the poison to. Also, it's hard to imagine Sakura having tea with the accused three (Yasuhiro, Togami, Touko) but it's easy to imagine her having tea with Aoi.

Not sure whether Sakura was complicit or not. I kind of feel like she might have been. Kind of odd for lightning to strike twice, but perhaps Aoi and Sakura hatched a similar plan to the one Celestia and Hifumi did. Perhaps Sakura was willing to sacrifice herself for Aoi. *shrug* Kinda nuts of her to think that she has to die to do it, but maybe that was the plan. Make everyone suspect that either Togami or Genocider Syo did it and buy Aoi's freedom. If this is correct, then a lot of the damage in the room may also be decoys meant to throw the investigators off. Make it look like Sakura put up a fight against a physical assailant rather than dying peacefully in her sleep while sitting. (Indeed, that smile on her face makes it seem all the more likely that Sakura died happy.) But if this line of reasoning is incorrect, if Sakura did not willingly sacrifice herself for Aoi, then a major question I have is: who put up the chair behind the door and how? Because while it'd clearly be Sakura herself if she were working with Aoi, I'm hardpressed to figure out who else it could've been were she not.

Not really sure what on earth the upside-down magazine is meant to signify ... or how the students could've even known that that had anything to do with the murder. -_-; My only guess is that we're maybe supposed to think that Sakura was over by the magazines when she vomited up blood and hurriedly shelved the magazine incorrectly? No idea.

Alter Ego's laptop sure does have the world's strongest battery. Just realized that this episode when Naegi moved it: there's no power adapter! Shouldn't that laptop have run out of juice ages ago? ^^; It's been on without power for like eight days straight ...

Trying to make sense of the ending credits, I'm wondering once again if this is all just one big CNS experiment and Naegi is currently lying in that steel room with a VR headset on. I dunno. *shrug* My leading theory is still a time loop or else someone consciously rewinding time to try and achieve a different outcome (ŕ la S;G), but Doppel wants to reject such fanciful explanations, so I'm forced to try and consider more mundane possibilities than ghosts and time travel and whatnot. I will say that it sure would be weird if Naegi ended up being an artificial intelligence himself and this was all a simulation he was running. O_o

Going to roll my eyes a bit if the principal is Kyouko's father and that's why she's so determined to find him. On a totally different bent, it would be pretty crazy if Togami were the principal and he just looked remarkably young for his age. [/crazy theory]
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:23 PM   #271
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Hey guys, I'm all caught up an-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87 View Post
Episode 08:
Dang rope it.

1-7 spoilers below.

Spoiler: show
I feel saddened by the fact that every time I guessed who it was, I got it wrong. "I bet it was the fortune-telling dude who killed Maizono!" Nope, Leon.
"I bet it was Celestia!" Nope, Mondo. (Also, screw him. I think the "big bro" part was meant to make the viewers feel for him, but really it made me point and laugh even more when he was turned into butter.) And then the last one I had no clue, thought maybe Aoi... but then nope, Celestia.

Certainly a fan regardless, can't wait until Episode 8 is subbed somewhere.
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Old 08-23-2013, 05:59 PM   #272
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I'm seeing the list for the English cast of Dangan Ronpa getting names. No one I actually recognize myself...but good lord will I make noise if they don't even try to cast Liam O'Brien as Togami. Hell, I'd buy the English game just for Liam O'Brien as Togami.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:12 PM   #273
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Um, Episode 8 is subbed. That's what Talon just saw. I'm talking about it here-

Spoiler: show
I really liked Sakura. ;_; She had this interest in protein shakes that I found a bit endearing. She drank one during Chihiro's murder episode and since I'm pretty obsessed with it as well, I found it quite relate-able.

I agree with Talon that Sakura was poisoned. However, I'm pretty sure Sakura killed herself. I know this for a few reasons:

-her "samurai" personality evokes a kind of loyalty and ability to initiate self-sacrifice the others don't have
-her death repose is a reference to Ashita no Joe, after Joe died on his own terms after a boxing match that mortally wounded him
-the sealed room means it was locked from the inside. There's no way any of the others could have gotten in seeing as there's no vents or any other ways of exiting the room. Sakura had to seal it off herself.
-nobody has a motive. Asahina is the likeliest suspect simply because she's Sakura's best friend, but nothing has been suggested right now as motivation to off her best friend. If she didn't bite on Monokuma's suggestions in the past, none of the stuff now should be convincing enough to take action.
-the other characters are incapable of killing Sakura, she's simply too powerful and needed a cheap killing agent like poison to down her.

The blunt trauma is definitely a red herring, but how Sakura got it I don't know.

I was disappointed with Kirigiri's demanding of Naegi to tell her what he was hiding. Kirigiri hasn't really revealed anything of note to Naegi, and the one interesting thing she did reveal turned out to be a trap that I'm still surprised Naegi survived.

Alter Ego's information was money. He's basically confirmed that the outside is a nuclear wasteland of sorts, and the students were originally supposed to hole up within the high-tech Kibougamine as a sort of sanctuary. I can assume then that Monokuma and his supporters probably took over the school and turned it into a depraved game zone.

This also brings up something kaisap brought up earlier that really stuck with me. Monokuma likes irony. If the world outside of Kibougamine is nothing but a wasteland, doesn't that create the greatest irony possible? He's been baiting the students to want to go outside with things of value in the outside world (money, friends, family). But if there's nothing outside, they'll lose their minds to grief and regret for what they did inside the academy.

I'm still not 100% sure on what to make of the pictures. They're either real or fake. If they're real, that implies the characters knew each other before Dangan Ronpa is set. Freaking Yamada implied as much just before he died. But Maizono has no memory of anyone except Naegi, and that was in middle school. If the pictures are real, the characters must be missing memories of a time they all attended the same school together (Kibougamine?). The only weird part is everyone was wearing a different uniform in the first episode, suggesting they were from different areas when they first game to the school. I don't know what more to make of things from here.

I wonder if Naegi is like Togami's half-brother or something. We've now seen Togami without his glasses but they look kind of similar. Maybe it's just a similar character design.
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Old 08-23-2013, 06:51 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
I agree with Talon that
Spoiler: show
Sakura was poisoned. However, I'm pretty sure Sakura killed herself.
Not sure where you're getting your "however" from.

(Episode 08 stuff throughout this post)

Spoiler: show
Minus the samurai talk and Ashita no Joe referencing, I said pretty much the same thing as you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talon87
Not sure whether Sakura was complicit or not. I kind of feel like she might have been. Kind of odd for lightning to strike twice, but perhaps Aoi and Sakura hatched a similar plan to the one Celestia and Hifumi did. Perhaps Sakura was willing to sacrifice herself for Aoi. *shrug* Kinda nuts of her to think that she has to die to do it, but maybe that was the plan. Make everyone suspect that either Togami or Genocider Syo did it and buy Aoi's freedom. If this is correct, then a lot of the damage in the room may also be decoys meant to throw the investigators off. Make it look like Sakura put up a fight against a physical assailant rather than dying peacefully in her sleep while sitting. (Indeed, that smile on her face makes it seem all the more likely that Sakura died happy.)
I too said that Sakura was probably complicit in her own demise. But I also said that we don't 100% know yet whether or not she was complicit. It's a good theory, but it's not one we have enough evidence to prove yet.

And like I also wrote, even if Sakura was complicit in her own death, it's quite unlikely that she acted 100% alone. She's very, very likely to have done what she did at least in part to help Aoi out as much as to atone for her own sins. How can we know this? A number of factors individually suggest it and in aggregate all but prove it:
1. Monobear would likely never conduct a trial for a pure suicide. Pure, unassisted suicide thwarts the entire Dangan Ronpa courtroom process since it hinges on the premise that the murderer is still alive (and thus can be exonerated at the expense of everyone else). If the murderer is already dead, there's no point in holding a trial over his victim's cause of death.

2. Sakura's head was bludgeoned with something to cause all of that bleeding, yet the bludgeoning item was not found in the room, not even after one of Kirigiri's trademark super-thorough investigations. I'm not really sure why this would be -- you'd think that the (assistant) murderer would want to have left the bludgeoning item behind to better set up the murder scene as one of blunt force trauma to the head instead of one of poisoning -- other than that it was the writers' way IRL of trying to make the case easier to solve for people who couldn't figure it out from the other available evidence. But the fact remains that it's highly, highly unlikely that Sakura would have staged her own bludgeoning, hidden the bludgeoning tool outside the room, and *then* locked herself away to die.

3. Two cups of tea on the table. The only reason to place two teacups on the table if Sakura's death was a 100% unassisted suicide would be if she were deliberately trying to frame someone else for her own death. And the person with the strongest connection in all of Dangan Ronpa to drinking tea with Sakura is none other than her best friend, Aoi. Very doubtful. Far more likely that the two girls had one last cup of tea together before saying their good-byes and that they simply goofed and neglected to hide Aoi's teacup.

4. Say Monobear were to hold a trial for Sakura's death, something she couldn't be positive about him doing or not doing. Say he held it. What then? If Sakura's death were a completely unassisted suicide, then what would happen to the jury -- Aoi included -- if they failed to prove this? They'd all die, including Aoi. It's very, very doubtful that Sakura would have wanted any harm to come to Aoi this way, so I doubt she'd have risked that her own suicide would set such horrid events into motion.

5. When Sakura went missing, this is what happened:
  1. Naegi had absolutely no clue she had gone missing.
  2. Kirigiri suddenly shows up out of breath.
  3. She escorts Naegi to the door. Aoi is standing in front of it.
  4. One assumes that Aoi reported to Kirigiri that she had found Sakura behind the door.
Why wasn't this the natural order instead, were Sakura's death 100% unassisted suicide?
  1. Sakura leaves a farewell letter for Aoi on Aoi's desk.
  2. Sakura holes herself away in the room and kills herself.
  3. Aoi finds the letter and rushes to try and stop Sakura but is too late.
  4. She reports to Kirigiri what she's found.
  5. Kirigiri gathers Naegi (and possibly others) and when they enter the room they expect to find that Sakura is already dead.
Alternatively, why wasn't this the natural order?
  1. Sakura holes herself away in the room and kills herself without telling anybody, not even Aoi.
  2. Aoi wonders where Sakura has gone to. Can't seem to find her.
  3. Aoi asks Kirigiri. "Have you seen Sakura-chan? " Kirigiri says that she hasn't, and Aoi's hunt continues.
  4. Aoi asks the same question of Togami.
  5. And Naegi.
  6. And Yasuhiro.
  7. Eventually they all realize "Oh shit " and they form a search party.
  8. They locate the room, see that Sakura seems to be inside, and bust in already fearing the worst.
Yet neither of these two likelier scenarios took place. What instead happened was that Naegi was astonished to discover that Sakura was ice cold and not merely taking a nap or knocked unconscious. And Aoi acted shocked too. This to me is strange, not because she shouldn't be shocked that her best friend has died (she should, of course!) but because it's kind of nuts that the fear wouldn't have crossed her mind before Kyouko and Naegi arrived to help enter the room. Furthermore, Aoi located Sakura in an unlikely place, behind a semi-opaque window, in less time than it would have taken her to ask Togami and the others if they had seen Sakura. I dunno, it could happen, but it just strikes me as a little strange.
For all these reasons, I think it's safe to assume -- until proven otherwise -- that Aoi likely had some involvement in Sakura's demise. I don't think it was a 100% unassisted suicide. I think it was a "doctor-assisted suicide minus the doctor."

If we assume that Aoi is a sincerely nice person, then she probably didn't want Sakura to kill herself but Sakura probably left her no choice. If we assume that Aoi, like so many earlier Dangan Ronpa characters, has got a secret evil side to her, then it's not beyond the realm of possibilities that Sakura was in fact murdered but as for the Ashita no Joe-esque pose you're referring to ... well, that simply came about as the dying Asahina smirked to herself about the black humor of her situation. (Betrayed by the one person she considered her dearest friend in the world. Killed by the one person she wouldn't allow others to lay even a finger on.) We'll just have to see come next week. Previous characters haven't revealed any hints of their evil sides until they break down in court so if Aoi does have one then it's likely that we're not going to see it until court either.

I wonder if you would agree with me on this next point though?

Spoiler: show
Even if you don't think Aoi was involved, wouldn't you say that the others are even less likely to be responsible? Or do you not agree with that either and feel that Togami, Touko, even Yasuhiro could be responsible for this crime?
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:05 PM   #275
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Oh God. Just had an epiphany of sorts. Not sure if we'd already advanced this theory or not. Decades-old science fiction trope. Could very well be what's going on here. You guys ready?

Spoiler: show
What if the kids are in a cloning facility? What if -- somehow -- their consciousness is stored in some sort of database and then written back into their clone bodies each time a new clone is to be used? So for example ...

Dangan Ronpa Trial #0037: Naegi dies third, and the winner is Leon.
Dangan Ronpa Trial #0059: Naegi dies first, and the winner is Kyouko.
Dangan Ronpa Trial #0101: Naegi dies first, and the winner is Celestia.
Dangan Ronpa Trial #0139: Naegi dies thirteenth, and the winner is Kyouko.
Dangan Ronpa Trial #0207: Naegi dies ninth, and the winner is Sayaka.
Dangan Ronpa Trial #9889: Naegi dies first, and the winner is Kyouko.
Dangan Ronpa Trial #9890: **current trial**

Each time a clone dies, that's fine -- the experimenters note everything they observed and don't shed a tear. Then, when that particular trial's outcome is decided, they {do something; could be anything} to the winner, and then what happens next is that they ready the next batch of clones. Pump their pre-Dangan Ronpa memories right back on into them (so the clones, as far as they're aware, are both the original copies and the only copies!) and set them in motion once again inside the halls of the school.

Perhaps it's an experiment to see whether certain people will never, ever kill no matter what.

Perhaps it's an experiment to see what it takes to make a killer out of anyone and everyone.

Perhaps it's an experiment to see if one person can cheat Fate -- if a clone whose older brothers or sisters have always, always failed to win the game can in fact one day win the game.

Whatever the case, I wonder if the Naegi we're seeing right now isn't Naegi #0001 but is in fact Naegi #9890.

Anyway, this theory isn't that much different (not fundamentally, anyway) from the time rewind theory, so I can easily appreciate why Doppel and others might reject this one on similar grounds to rejecting the Rewinding of the Clock theory. But yeah, this just came to me. We haven't really seen any evidence to suggest science fiction clones but who knows, who knows.

Disclaimer: I don't really think this theory is right myself. (There are quite a few holes with it, like one I'll mention below.) But I just figured I should post it because it just struck me out of nowhere.

Spoiler: show
One problem with the theory, as laid out above, is that Yamada should not have had memories of being with the students in the past. The clone theory works for the photographs that Alter Ego has dug up, yes, but it doesn't really work with Yamada's dying memories. I guess you could tweak the theory by suggesting that the students' memories are somehow sucked out of their bodies even in death, but I dunno, that seems kinda ludicrous.
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