UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > POKÉMON

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-08-2012, 03:49 AM   #26
Sneaze
I'm sorry, Talon :(
 
Sneaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sigs Hell
Posts: 5,682
Send a message via Skype™ to Sneaze
Jellicent says "Hi." Takes around 60% damage from Flare Blitz with a Dance under it, carries Recover, and can 2HKO with Scald, with a potential to OHKO. Guaranteed KO with one Scald thanks to Flare Blitz recoil.

Edit: And before everyone goes "lol Sun" and misses my point, I'm saying that if a 'mon that is specced for anything but physical attacks can have a chance of dealing with Blaziken, a 'mon that is properly specced will have no problem at all.
__________________
Wild Future - FizzBy
PASBL - Ghost Grass Gym Leader - Dragon Elite Four


Daisy wins at life for making this Battle Cut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
Whatever Sneasel says is right

Last edited by Sneaze; 06-08-2012 at 04:07 AM.
Sneaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 04:07 AM   #27
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
By this logic, Weavile is a counter for a Garchomp who Swords Dances on the switch.

Edit: Hell, by this logic, Focus Sash Weavile is a counter for RAYQUAZA who Dragon Dances on the switch.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 04:09 AM   #28
Sneaze
I'm sorry, Talon :(
 
Sneaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sigs Hell
Posts: 5,682
Send a message via Skype™ to Sneaze
1) See my edit
2) No. Just. No.
__________________
Wild Future - FizzBy
PASBL - Ghost Grass Gym Leader - Dragon Elite Four


Daisy wins at life for making this Battle Cut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
Whatever Sneasel says is right
Sneaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 04:13 AM   #29
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
Why not?
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 10:33 AM   #30
phoopes
Double Dragon
 
phoopes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,470
I'd like to point something out, 'Geet. Focus Sash Weavile to Garchomp or Rayquaza who Dances on the switch...

Obviously Chomp hits first and gets Weavile down to 1 HP. Then...

252 Atk Weavile Ice Punch vs 4 HP/0 Def Yache Berry Garchomp: 67.88% - 80.45% (2 hits to KO)

252 Atk Weavile Ice Shard vs 4 HP/0 Def Garchomp: 73.74% - 87.15% (2 hits to KO)

So yeah, Weavile hits back with a weakened Ice Punch, then uses a priority move to KO Garchomp. This is pretty much the same thing that happens with Yache Rayquaza, just different percentages. So yeah... your point is kinda moot there.

And no, you can't just assume that Sandstorm will always be up.
__________________
phoopes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 10:43 AM   #31
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
That's my point. It being that if you disagree with Garchomp's or...RAYQUAZA's...bans...I really can't help you. And if you don't, then you must agree that these "counters" are in the same league as Weavile.

BTW: I forgot about Sandstorm, and YES, you bloody well have to assume SS is up when Garchomp's out. That's half of the point of using Garchomp, abusing Sand Veil. So Weavile isn't even a counter. Though it might be if Chomp's not carrying Yache, of course.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 10:59 AM   #32
phoopes
Double Dragon
 
phoopes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,470
Except that there are other Pokemon that can, ya know, change the weather. Politoed is sort of common, I hear. A misprediction can easily down Tyranitar (or Hippowdon), and leave your opponent's weather to dominate the game. The weather you want isn't always going to be present. Anyone who's played a lick of 5th gen OU could tell you that.

Also, it should be noted that I do agree with Garchomp's ban. I was playing devil's advocate to try to disprove the point you were making.
__________________
phoopes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:07 AM   #33
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
Again. You need an entire different playstyle(changing weather) to kill one pokémon.

The point isn't that Blaziken will be in every team. The point is that the THREAT of Blaziken being in every team will make the metagame about 100% less interesting.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:12 AM   #34
Talon87
Shenmue III, baby!
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,199
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
The guiding principle behind Pokemon bans in competitive play is that the Pokémon polarizes the metagame. Whether you like this principle or dislike it is the core debate upon which Pokemon ban debates is founded, but if you're going to say "I am all in favor of bans so long as they're appropriate," then you have to start here. The core tenet behind the bans instituted by communities like Smogon and Pokemon-Online is that the banned Pokemon, before it was banned, was resulting in too distasteful of a narrowing of options available to players.

To help you to understand this, let's look at a hypothetical example. Suppose (just suppose) there is a creature called Blaziken who is the creature being considered for a ban and suppose there is another creature called Azumarill who is the only capable counter to Blaziken. Suppose that this Blaziken fellow is so powerful, so easy to setup, so difficult to get around -- nay, impossible to get around unless you run Azumarill! -- that everyone wants to include him on their teams. Because most people want to win. Because most people hate losing. So they all rush to include the Pokemon that is said to guarantee them victory. And what you now get are a bunch of battles where the winner is the person who is able to get his Blaziken out first and successfully set up at least one Swords Dance and get at least one speed boost. So suppose what this means is that Blaziken is an appropriate answer to ...
  • Gengar
  • Starmie
  • Garchomp
  • Salamence
  • Gyarados
  • Conkeldurr
  • Ferrothorn
  • Jellicent
  • Gliscor
  • Excadrill
  • Hippowdon
  • Cradily
  • Infernape
  • Swampert
  • Animechu
and many more. Suppose he is a proper "counter" (in the sense that he can switch in and win) against all of these and more. And suppose, just suppose, that the only adequate answer to Blaziken is Azumarill. What then happens?

I'll tell you what happens: everyone and his mother now rushes out to draft Azumarill onto their teams as well. And they then rush out to draft the best Azumarill killer. (Say it's Galvantula.) Things can get pretty diverse past this point but for at least three of the first six team slots, we have locked-in identities: Blaziken for the win, Azumarill for the thwarting the other guy's win, and Galvantula for the thwarting the other guy's thwarting our win. Three of the six slots in all teams are now identical. Same moves (thanks to the Internet era), same EVs and IVs (likewise), same everything. It all boils down now to paper rock scissors: who switches when he should and who switches when he shouldn't, who leads with who, etc. "Do I lead with Blaziken? What if he leads with Blaziken too? Then it's 50/50. What if he leads with Azumarill? Then I'm screwed. What if he leads with Galvantula? Then I win. Oh, what do I do? " It's pure paper-rock-scissors at that point. Pokemon has always been paper-rock-scissors, but now you've really reduced it to just that. And few consider that fun to play.

It is at this point that a community like Smogon or Pokemon-Online would say, "Hey y'all: we're gonna ban Blaziken now." The intention behind the ban being that if they remove Blaziken, they remove the incentive for everyone to run Azumarill and Galvantula, and now people are free to roll with "their favorites" again. Sure, you've forked over people for whom Blaziken was their favorite, but that's one out of every 200 or so Pokemon fans. In exchange, you've made the game fun again for 100 out of every 200 Pokemon fans. (The other 99 notice no change to their fun level. ) This is the logic behind bans. Whether you agree it or not is itself a core debate regarding Pokemon bans, but the fact is that if you roll with the idea that there are at least some bans which are worth implementing, this is the most basic of those worthy bans.

I am not saying in this post that Blaziken does or does not deserve to be banned. I am not saying that Azumarill is or is not an adequate Blaziken counter. I am not saying that Azumarill is the only Blaziken counter. What I am saying, what I did say, is that if you roll with those assumptions (that Blaziken is OP, that Azumarill's a capable counter, and that Azumarill's one of the very few who can), you can easily reach the conclusion that Blaziken deserves to be banned. In other words, the existence of a perfect antidote to a threatening Pokemon does not, I repeat, does NOT make that threatening Pokemon not broken!

Last edited by Talon87; 06-08-2012 at 11:14 AM.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:17 AM   #35
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
Again. You need an entire different playstyle(changing weather) to kill one pokémon.

The point isn't that Blaziken will be in every team. The point is that the THREAT of Blaziken being in every team will make the metagame about 100% less interesting.
'geet, this is B/W. Weather is a BIG THING. Blaziken assuming sunlight is no more powerful than *Insert Weather Sweeper* assuming *Insert Weather*.

The thing you don't seem to realize is that, in B/W OU, you can't get far without having a counter to weather. PERIOD.
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:19 AM   #36
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
A counter to weather is not necessarily another weather. A counter to rain is Ferrothorn. A counter to sandstorm is, say, Swampert maybe. A counter to hail is having a team that's not awful. Etc etc.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:30 AM   #37
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
A counter to weather is not necessarily another weather. A counter to rain is Ferrothorn. A counter to sandstorm is, say, Swampert maybe. A counter to hail is having a team that's not awful. Etc etc.
>Implying hail is totally bad


Anyway, by that logic, yeah, just take out your Altaria and watch Blaziken die. Hell, Dragon/Flying is probably one of the most common OU types. And it totally walls Blazikens which don't carry a non-stab move. Hello, Dragonite. Oh, guess who else walls him? Volcarona. Oh? Running Stone Edge so you're not walled by them? I'm guessing you got rid of Protect, as non-boosting Blaziken fails forever. And if you got rid of Protect? Hello, meet my little *Insert Choice Scarf user here*.

And, I seem to recall your counter to my list of Bulky Waters being "UU 'mon have no place in OU"- Hello, I'm currently proving you wrong by rapidly accending the ladder with a team containing not one, but TWO UU 'mon. In the top 6% already, not showing any signs of slowing down.
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:33 AM   #38
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
Do the calcs for Altaria. +2 Flare Blitz in sun off 120 attack.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:35 AM   #39
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
Do the calcs for Altaria. +2 Flare Blitz in sun off 120 attack.
There's a reason I said Altaria. Take the sun out of your calcs- her ability, Cloud Nine, nullifies that effect.
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:38 AM   #40
Talon87
Shenmue III, baby!
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,199
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
Why don't you just play five quick games, best 3 out of 5, and see who's right? And if the loser feels strongly that despite his loss he is still the one who is right, the burden is then on him to prove to the other guy that he's right by presenting some video evidence from battles of his against other players. The other guy then either has to accept that the challenger is right or else he has to agree to go back into the ring and duke it out once again, best 3 out of 5. If the winner can defend his title the second time, it means the loser is not allowed to bring this argument up again for at least 6 months. (This prevents the winner from having to constantly defend his correctness from trolling.)
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:42 AM   #41
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,835
I think that is a great idea.
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 12:15 PM   #42
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
I actually thought of that. To do that, I would make anything from one to five different teams, some with Blaziken in them, some without. In the Ubers metagame, but the ONLY allowed non-OU pokemon will be Blaziken. I'm pretty sure there's something to turn off seeing someone's team before challenging, thus simulating a ladder match perfectly.

Unfortunately, me getting my net back coincides with the beginning of school so it's impossible.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 12:43 PM   #43
DaveTheFishGuy
Primordial Fishbeast
 
DaveTheFishGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 12,257
Send a message via Skype™ to DaveTheFishGuy
Hey guys, what's going on up in here--

{walls of text about Blaziken}

And then Dave lost his last lingering desires to comp.
DaveTheFishGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 12:52 PM   #44
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
Just a little thing about Stone Edge vs Protect. If I'm not running Protect, you don't know until it's too late and I've already boosted up to at least +2. And likely much more than that. Hehe.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 05:54 PM   #45
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,835
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangeetsuper View Post
Just a little thing about Stone Edge vs Protect. If I'm not running Protect, you don't know until it's too late and I've already boosted up to at least +2. And likely much more than that. Hehe.
No, if you're not running protect, I would of killed you at +1. If you are, then you're walled and are not a problem. Done.
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 06:39 PM   #46
Celebii151
ADCs in 2017 LUL
 
Celebii151's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Getting 5 manned bot
Posts: 3,331
Send a message via Skype™ to Celebii151
Apparently, a PO server mod has altered Secret Power, causing it to lower the user's accuracy when it should paralyze.
__________________
Spoiler: show


PASBL Record
Trainer Level: 5
Referee Grade: B
Wins (DQ): 51 (5) Losses (DQ): 27 (6) Draws: 3
KOs: 135 TP: 294 SP (Earned): 0 (0)

Anime Style Battling | Fizzy Bubbles | Wild Future
Thanks to Pengyzu for the UserBar!
Celebii151 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 06:44 PM   #47
Talon87
Shenmue III, baby!
 
Talon87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 20,199
Send a message via AIM to Talon87
I told Celebii this and take responsibility if I was wrong. I was speculating based on what I read online in a thread ... but I now realize that that person may have (a) been some ordinary Joe and/or (b) may have been talking about editing the Bulbapedia article, not the server's way of handling the move. So if what he wrote is wrong, blame me.

In any event, we have observed that Secret Power use in CC seems to be causing peculiar accuracy drops to the user. So what Celebii wrote may still be correct. Warrants further investigation.
Talon87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:03 PM   #48
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindrindra View Post
No, if you're not running protect, I would of killed you at +1. If you are, then you're walled and are not a problem. Done.
Would you like to explain to me exactly who the hell you want to switch in? Switch in a "wall", I might have Stone Edge. Switch in a Scarfer, I might have Protect. You're playing a guessing game.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:11 PM   #49
Kindrindra
大事なのは自分らしいくある事
 
Kindrindra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Determined
Posts: 5,835
Obviously, you switch in the Scarfer. If you send in the wall and they have Stone Edge, you lost a team member for nothing. But you can't KO a pokemon with Protect- you can just stall a turn. So, they get the free speed boost, whatever, just switch to the Wall. Or you could sack the scarfer to bring in the wall for free if the scarfer is of little to no use anymore. Alternatively, you could have a priority user, which doesn't really care if they have protect or not.
__________________
PASBL(TL: 4 RL: B-) --- FB (Kin Blackstone) --- WF (Adelie Fleur)
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
Kindrindra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2012, 11:19 PM   #50
Rangeet
Foot, meet mouth.
 
Rangeet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Beyond the Wall
Posts: 4,330
Send a message via MSN to Rangeet Send a message via Skype™ to Rangeet
You lose a pokemon either way. You lose the Scarfer, or you lose the wall, because there is absolutely no pokemon that does not get 2HKOed by Sun +2 Flare Blitz.
__________________
Spoiler: show
Rangeet is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > General Forums > POKÉMON


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:15 AM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.