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Old 06-25-2011, 08:50 PM   #26
Mercutio
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People in doing somethhinf I suggested shocker.

/hammsred
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Old 06-25-2011, 11:54 PM   #27
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People in doing somethhinf I suggested shocker.

/hammsred
Quoted so he can't edit it and pretend it never happened. ;3
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-26-2011, 05:03 AM   #28
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Oh that's really not the funniest thing I posted last night. And I think when people put " /hammered" or "/drunk" at the end of posts they're probably exaggerating.
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Old 06-26-2011, 05:05 AM   #29
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Oh that's really not the funniest thing I posted last night. And I think when people put " /hammered" or "/drunk" at the end of posts they're probably exaggerating.
Yes, but my sister got the funniest thing before I could.

Also, you misspelled hammered. :3
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People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
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Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-26-2011, 05:51 AM   #30
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Well I was hammered :p
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Old 06-26-2011, 08:18 AM   #31
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I don't think anyone's argued this here, but ed made a comment about disliking 1.5/3 because of energy use. No offense to you, ed, but it struck a bit of a nerve.

If you don't like 1.5/3 because of energy use, I'm really not sure why you're complaining - you have plenty of energy to safely KO a foe without the help of SE attacks. SE attacks are a bonus that make it so you don't have to worry about energy so much. The reason I am so annoyed by x2/x4 is because you deal a wild amount of damage for no equivalent energy use, making it extremely efficient and encouraging typespam, which just leads to bad, spammy battling and not actual strategy. The reason I like x1.5/x3 is that it slows the battle down enough that you can actually make a comeback and employ strategy instead of "EVADE N SE ATTACKS AND THEN TRY TO HIT HIM". And, if you do get typespammed, your foe actually feels it, allowing you the opportunity to get back at them. This way, they're not taking out half your health with a Fire Blast and feeling nothing for it. It becomes a crutch and you never actually learn to control energy use.

I dunno, I may be kicking a dead horse here, but I just get kind of annoyed when people don't like things because they don't want to put the effort in to learn something new. It's not that hard of a system to get used to and you'll still have Pokemon falling in at least 8 rounds, if not earlier. At the very least, I'd hope that refs will learn to actually consider energy and exhaustion as a part of their calculations (another reason I dislike purely math-based systems - there is nuance in the health and energy they don't account for!) so that the typespammed are at least given a chance.
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Old 06-26-2011, 10:37 AM   #32
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I don't think anyone's argued this here, but ed made a comment about disliking 1.5/3 because of energy use. No offense to you, ed, but it struck a bit of a nerve.

If you don't like 1.5/3 because of energy use, I'm really not sure why you're complaining - you have plenty of energy to safely KO a foe without the help of SE attacks. SE attacks are a bonus that make it so you don't have to worry about energy so much. The reason I am so annoyed by x2/x4 is because you deal a wild amount of damage for no equivalent energy use, making it extremely efficient and encouraging typespam, which just leads to bad, spammy battling and not actual strategy. The reason I like x1.5/x3 is that it slows the battle down enough that you can actually make a comeback and employ strategy instead of "EVADE N SE ATTACKS AND THEN TRY TO HIT HIM". And, if you do get typespammed, your foe actually feels it, allowing you the opportunity to get back at them. This way, they're not taking out half your health with a Fire Blast and feeling nothing for it. It becomes a crutch and you never actually learn to control energy use.

I dunno, I may be kicking a dead horse here, but I just get kind of annoyed when people don't like things because they don't want to put the effort in to learn something new. It's not that hard of a system to get used to and you'll still have Pokemon falling in at least 8 rounds, if not earlier. At the very least, I'd hope that refs will learn to actually consider energy and exhaustion as a part of their calculations (another reason I dislike purely math-based systems - there is nuance in the health and energy they don't account for!) so that the typespammed are at least given a chance.
Eh. Jeri, as much as your points are valid, your main bugbear seems to be that under the existing system, the proponents of said system are getting the unfair advantage, since it restricts the opponent's strategies. Surely it's also arguable that under the other system, proponents of that system will be better off and the non-supporters would be at detriment. Besides, it doesn't quite address Kush's point: "1.5x is bad for energy usage now that everyone seems to be increasing how much energy stuff costs." I'm not quite sure why you're so absolutely against the 2x/4x system - there are a couple of ways it kinda flies against faces:

- Why should, say, a Water attack take more energy out of the Pokemon if used against a Fire/Rock-type - just because the damage is multiplied? It looks like energy usage would be calculated AFTER damage has been done to the opponent, which makes even less sense. By that logic using Thunder against a Pelipper would exhaust you of most of your energy assuming you killed it, and in parallel it would cost you no energy using it on a Swampert. Put another way - by that logic, if your energy used is inversely proportionate to the effect done on an object, it means that you use more energy throwing a small pebble than pushing a huge boulder (that doesn't budge).
- What defines "learning something new"? Typespam is one thing that certainly affects balance, sure, but - pardon me if we've already brought this up - why is it that the opponent who sends his, say, Escavalier out against a Charizard is not similarly judged? If the matchup was done willingly then, well, sure - clearly the Escavalier user must already have something in mind, in which case there's no problem. If the matchup was done out of sheer ignorance - could we not say that it's the Escavalier user who needs to learn something new?

Overall, I think it's that potential slippery slope Kush (and ed, if I'm not wrong) is/are trying to bring up. Are we wanting a league in which a Sneasel can trounce a Lucario - regardless of how much we'll have to change things and, as it were, get people to "put in the effort to learn something new"?
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Old 06-26-2011, 11:18 PM   #33
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>Why should, say, a Water attack take more energy out of the Pokemon if used against a Fire/Rock-type - just because the damage is multiplied?

I'm pretty sure that you entirely missed my point. I'm not saying it SHOULD be this way - that defeats the purpose of SE attacks in the first place. I'm saying that it's more balanced to minimize the energy efficiency. This way, there is some sort of consequence for using attacks, making it so you actually have to weight your options instead of just wildly spamming attacks because there is no drawback for it.

>What defines "learning something new"?

I really don't get where you got this argument from and frankly, you sort of seem to be twisting my words here. Learning something new refers to learning how to battle in a situation where you must use in-battle strategy to best your foe, not type match-ups.

I agree that if you find yourself in an unfortunate match up due to ignorance, you should pay the price for it, and frankly, x3 will still allow for that (x3 Solar Beam/Fire Blast brings you down to just above the final HB anyways, enough so that two of them KOs instead of one). But this way, you do actually have a chance to not totally be screwed out of one Pokemon. It's fair, in my opinion. Not to mention, it opens up options for Pokemon otherwise crippled by their weaknesses, which broadens the game a bit.

From what I can tell, the perceived problems with balance aren't from the fundamental problems with the system but the refs themselves. I've made an effort to make it so that attacks and their energy costs balance out to equivalent, and if that doesn't line up, that's due to poor reffing, not the system. You always have x1.5 energy for a KO. You should be able to make a safe KO without any SE attacks. That means that SE attacks should just make your life easier, regardless of the amount of extra, energy-free damage you're given. If you can't manage your energy well with x1.5, then I hope that you never find yourself in an neutral position or you're sure to lose.

Another thing that I'm not sure anyone has addressed or even really wants to is the tendency to cling on to tradition I've noticed. I mean, I can sympathize with that - I still want this to be Pokemon - but we're working with a fundamentally unbalanced system and I'm trying my best to level the playing field. We're going to have to make breaks like this if we want for things to actually be relatively fair.
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Old 06-27-2011, 12:16 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Shadowshocker View Post
- What defines "learning something new"? Typespam is one thing that certainly affects balance, sure, but - pardon me if we've already brought this up - why is it that the opponent who sends his, say, Escavalier out against a Charizard is not similarly judged? If the matchup was done willingly then, well, sure - clearly the Escavalier user must already have something in mind, in which case there's no problem. If the matchup was done out of sheer ignorance - could we not say that it's the Escavalier user who needs to learn something new?
Something I would like to mention is that the problem seems to be the reverse- not sending a Escavalier against a Charizard, but rather sending a Charizard against a Escavalier. Granted, if your opponent has a Charizard, sending out Escavalier is kinda derpish. However, 3x rather than 4x means it is impossible to KO an opponent with a single move. This has two important effects- firstly, the more obvious one is that an opponent must spend more than 1HB to KO an opponent, and that the pokemon who was blasted is left with a full HB of health. Now, using the previous example, let's say the Charizard used Fire Blast followed by Flamethrower- that's between 1.6 and 1.8 HBs of Energy. While that may not seem like a lot, it's slightly more than a quarter of their energy- a low price to pay for KOing a 4HB pokemon, but it's more than they would have to pay otherwise. Of course, the Charizard user could not have down syndrome and use Ember or some such rather than Flamethrower. However, the more important point is my second one- The inability to KO the opponent with a single offensive move brings the often forgotten significance of a move into play. Requiring two moves to KO the opponent gives them the opportunity to retaliate with one of their own. Now, the repercussions of this can vary from the aforementioned Escavalier getting off a Frustration to a Corsola Mirror Coating a Gigalith's Solarbeam or the Escavalier unleashing some sort of Rock-typed sig move. But, wait, it doesn't stop there. Having to use two moves has massive effects on the next round. Having to use a single move would serve to buffer the effects of using such a high-power move, leaving the pokemon which just exploited the typespam so ruthlessly in a relatively good position for the next round. However, having to use two moves, one of them being high-powered, will most likely leave them wide open to massive retribution from the next opponent.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainmisato View Post
People should watch what they enjoy regardless of what others think, even if it's a terribad guilty pleasure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger View Post
Though, I also dislike the concept of lamenting the current day while wishing to re-experience the past. At least, my modern attitude is to try and make each new day magical even if it's not, since exclusively reminiscing about the past is too pathetic.
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Old 06-27-2011, 07:00 AM   #35
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>I really don't get where you got this argument from and frankly, you sort of seem to be twisting my words here.

Probably a fair enough statement. I was in a state of mind that worked along the lines of "if you don't like being unable to kill my Escavalier with Fire moves then you can go suck it", and "Oh, you didn't know Bug/Steel gets raped by Fire? It's okay; we'll work it out such that you exhaust your opponent completely. Super effectiveness is so icky and mathematical", interpreting your argument in a rather reductio ad absurdum way.

>Another thing that I'm not sure anyone has addressed or even really wants to is the tendency to cling on to tradition I've noticed. I mean, I can sympathize with that - I still want this to be Pokemon - but we're working with a fundamentally unbalanced system and I'm trying my best to level the playing field. We're going to have to make breaks like this if we want for things to actually be relatively fair.

Jokes about how this is largely how the league was run until fairly recently, I'm not sure how you're going to achieve this. Pokemon elements and their distribution will most certainly never allow for this - if by seeking relative fairness you mean that you'll want Pokemon to overcome their type weaknesses, that'll likely have to extend to movepool limitations or other similarly over-the-top restrictions. OU, UU and NU is an idea that will remain with us (at least in terms of practical analysis).
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Old 07-31-2011, 04:13 PM   #36
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Been thinking long and hard, and I think 2x/3x is the way I'll go beginning the next match I ref. Keeps the "math" easier and it's agreeable.
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