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Old 02-12-2011, 05:39 PM   #51
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Double post for revelation.

I was going to rewrite Secret Power to reflect it's in-game description slightly but then had an idea - I could apply this kind of thing to Natural Gift and actually make it usable. Maybe Natural Gift can be a move that varies on the environment: if there's an obvious elemental association with it, Natural Gift will turn into that type. It makes it moderately usable and possibly adds some variety to a few Pokemon. It'd be somewhat weak but enough to do decent damage. Too complicated?
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Old 02-12-2011, 05:41 PM   #52
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That is the best idea I've heard all day. I'm all for the environment-based Natural Gift.
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Old 02-12-2011, 05:46 PM   #53
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That... is exactly what I was going to suggest. Creepy.
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:27 PM   #54
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Natural Gift (Various) - The user gathers energy from the environment around them and concentrates it into a burst of energy, sending it through the ground to strike from below and deal decent damage. The burst rises to surround the target, going high enough to hit most airborne foes. The type of the attack depends on the environment it's used in, as it pulls its energy directly from nature. For instance, if used in a Grass field or forest, it will be Grass-typed, if used in a clay arena, it will be Ground-typed, if used in a power plant, it will be Electric-typed, etc. The exact type is up to the *refferee. The type of Natural Gift can change if the arena is altered (the grass is burned, snow is melted, water evaporates) or the arena changes (like in the Shifting Stafium). Because this attack draws the energy from the arena, it does not pull from the user's type energy pools, but repeated uses will put a strain on the environment and weaken the attack.*
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Last edited by Jerichi; 02-12-2011 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:31 PM   #55
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It's like Earth Power just the type is dependent on the arena. It looks pretty good though I think.
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:50 PM   #56
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I'm not quite sure about it not taking from the user's type energy pool at all. Maybe just half?
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:50 PM   #57
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Last part of that description almost made me think that the user spent none of their own energy to initiate the attack, but rather that of the environment. I'm assuming the user would also chip in some of their own, so I guess I just want clarification as to how much.
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:50 PM   #58
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Somehow, I'm reminded about Nature Power - why don't we use the same idea for Nature Power (i.e. like the games), except that it draws on the user's energy reserves (if you're that worried about zomg Rock Slide Ludicolo)?
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:07 PM   #59
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I don't actually see the need for Substitute to be 1.5x the energy put in to the sub. I don't see that it would be broken if the amount was 1x health or less.

HP normal typed.
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:40 PM   #60
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HP type energy'd. Secret Power like the anime plz.

Also recommend a slight denerf of Flash?
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Old 02-12-2011, 08:41 PM   #61
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>It's like Earth Power just the type is dependent on the arena

Not really. It's based on the interpretation of Secret Power here. I just liked how the anime did it so I went with this.

>I'm not quite sure about it not taking from the user's type energy pool at all. Maybe just half?

Considering a lot of the time they're not going to have the type, I'd prefer it to be this way. I want it to be something versatile that anyone can use as a good option to expand smaller sets. Having it weaken with repeated usage discourages (and prevents) abuse so Pokemon like Quagsire don't suddenly become unusable in Grass arenas and stuff like that.

>Last part of that description almost made me think that the user spent none of their own energy to initiate the attack, but rather that of the environment. I'm assuming the user would also chip in some of their own, so I guess I just want clarification as to how much.

I'll reword that a bit - I see what you mean.

>Somehow, I'm reminded about Nature Power - why don't we use the same idea for Nature Power (i.e. like the games), except that it draws on the user's energy reserves (if you're that worried about zomg Rock Slide Ludicolo)?

I was actually considering that and I honestly would not be totally against it considering Ludicolo is probably the best Nature Power user. The few Pokemon who get it have fairly limited movesets so expanding their abilities with a broader Nature Power would be a lot better.

>I don't actually see the need for Substitute to be 1.5x the energy put in to the sub. I don't see that it would be broken if the amount was 1x health or less.

The reason I have x1.5 the energy is to prevent abuse of it - if you create a lot of little subs over and over than you can basically wall out all these heavy attacks repeatedly. At least with higher energy use it discourages throwing a Sub at every Fire Blast and Hyper Beam the foe throws out.

>Also recommend a slight denerf of Flash?

What were you thinking of?

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Old 02-13-2011, 01:53 PM   #62
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Ah this is true, if we're changing it so that Substitute can be made into a small thing (incidentally, why?)) then that would need an energy based drawback.

Regarding HP, could we not just set it so that HP can be changed in the bio? Like whether or not Electabuzz goes crazy for ketchup. It's a bit woolly and we'd need to make it so that you can't go "lol Pikachu has HP Dragon and it is super strong" but we could make it so that you can decide what HP something is.

Secret Power, meh, would prefer it to stay a beam and not just be a clone of Nature Power.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:56 PM   #63
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>What were you thinking of?

I don't think up-close Flashes causing some very temporary blindness (15 secondsish) would be ridiculous. But I wouldn't be terribly hurt if you disagree :p

(yeah i know why it was nerfed in the first place but I think moving toward the center couldn't hurt)
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:12 PM   #64
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>Ah this is true, if we're changing it so that Substitute can be made into a small thing (incidentally, why?)) then that would need an energy based drawback.

I'm probably actually going to increase the minimum for Sub since most people will generally chose the minimum anyway, but it'll be a good tactic to take a lot of punishment. It still needs some tweaking but as long as we get a functional version, I'm fine with it.

>Regarding HP, could we not just set it so that HP can be changed in the bio? Like whether or not Electabuzz goes crazy for ketchup. It's a bit woolly and we'd need to make it so that you can't go "lol Pikachu has HP Dragon and it is super strong" but we could make it so that you can decide what HP something is.

Too complicated, IMO. But, that being said, I would be willing to be flexible with changing HPs along with sigs as long as it's reasonable. It's a fairly minor change and as long as you can justify it, I'd be ok with it. But I think that HP as your Base type is a good thing - it gives a lot of Pokemon usable alternatives when they don't get a lot or really any Special STAB.

>Secret Power, meh, would prefer it to stay a beam and not just be a clone of Nature Power.

My rewrite functions almost identically - just a bit more widespread - since Natural Gift will be getting the Nature Power/Secret Power treatment.

>I don't think up-close Flashes causing some very temporary blindness (15 secondsish) would be ridiculous. But I wouldn't be terribly hurt if you disagree :p

I'll talk to Nick about finding a happier medium. It's a legitimate tactic but it gets overreffed and abused.
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:30 PM   #65
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Regarding flash, pokémon who can see in the dark generally do so by having epic eyes. I think that using point blanl Flash on, say, a Houndoom, will do more than on a Pikachu.
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:32 PM   #66
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Yeah - I think we should treat sensitive eyes much like sensitive hearing. That would actually make Flash a bit more valuable.
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:35 PM   #67
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Additionally, I think that 15 seconds is a little high. bearing in mind that the average round lasts somewhere in the vicinity of 20-60 seconds (yeah ok fine it varies a lot) Flash can be a little broken.
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:44 PM   #68
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It's a lot better than the two or three rounds Flash used to blind you for. 15 seconds is at least manageable. I think Flash should only last for the duration of about an attack and a half - enough to throw off one enemy attack and at least start your own and catch them off guard. And, of course, we should give diminishing returns on it. Eventually, your eyes will adjust to the light.
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Old 02-13-2011, 02:56 PM   #69
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Agreed. On that note (oh I'm so funny), can we clarify the differences between Screech and Metal Sound? I realise that they do a variation on the same thing in game and that we don't have them do either, but I do hate clones so much.

Perhaps we could have Screech do what it currently does at reasonable effectiveness, whereas Metal Sound is more effective against stuff harder stuff and less effective against softer stuff? A totally arbitrary distinction but it could work.
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Old 02-13-2011, 04:26 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
It's a lot better than the two or three rounds Flash used to blind you for. 15 seconds is at least manageable. I think Flash should only last for the duration of about an attack and a half - enough to throw off one enemy attack and at least start your own and catch them off guard. And, of course, we should give diminishing returns on it. Eventually, your eyes will adjust to the light.
I'm greatly okay with this. Right now it does basically nothing so anything would be a step up.
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:45 AM   #71
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Ok, I'm gonna go back a bit later and work out particulars for Sub and Flash (Sub will probably have its limits changed and I just need to figure out how to word Flash correctly), so let's move on for now.

I took an informal poll in the TO a while back, asking about Shadow Ball's strength and adjusting it to fit the scale better. Most seemed to be in favor of lessening of power.

I have simplified Shadow Ball to this:
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Shadow Ball (GH) -- The user charges up and fires a ball of black ghost energy at the opponent, launching it to hit the target for significant damage. Upon impact, the ball bursts, letting out a ghostly wind that deals damage to those around it. This attack is particularly unstable and most decently powerful Psychic attacks will burst it.
Is anyone still totally against it?

And on a similar note, I haven't done much to Focus Punch - simply defined that there are in fact mid- and quick-charge versions:
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Focus Punch (FT) -- The ultimate fighting attack, the user spends significant time and energy charging up the attack, and then releases a devastating punch. The user's fist, glowing with fighting energy, is impervious to damage during the attack. Energy and damage are equivalent to Hyper Beam, with damage also being modified by the user of the move. The charge time, as well, is like Hyper Beam, with a full charge doing the lethal damage, but consuming a very significant amount of time and energy. Quick charge and Mid-Charge variations of this move are possible, but consume slightly more energy than they do damage due to the need to break the focus before the technique is complete.
However, my problem is, is FP still too overpowered? And how should we treat the "impervious to damage" part?
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:49 AM   #72
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Just leave out the "imperveous to damage" part, without that, and large charging time it should be useable. Also note that the attack is actually a HB-level move in the game, just with another drawback. I also never experienced it as too overpowered, because of auto-dodging HB level moves.

EDIT: does shadowball now do damage similar to thunderbolt or thunder, or maybe in between?
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:49 AM   #73
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The Shadow Ball is OK, but I dunno...seems like ghost needs a good attack when all it has it Night Shade or Ominious Wind..

FP seems quite all right to me...

Edit: @Dave(regarding blocking attacks), been there done that. Seems quite all right, Focus Punch takes some time to charge and I think it's only completely immune at FC...hmm, maybe add that in? Immunity to attacks increases with charge?
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Old 02-19-2011, 07:50 AM   #74
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Shadow Ball looks good, though 'significant' seems an eensy bit high. Would suggest 'fairly high'/'high', to keep it in line with Thunderbolt-strength.

Focus Punch... well, it's HB-level in the games, so I don't have a problem with it being that strong. Not sure about the 'impervious' bit, since theoretically someone could order their 'mon to charge up an FP while using their fist to block attacks.
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Old 02-19-2011, 09:17 AM   #75
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Shadow Ball looks good, though 'significant' seems an eensy bit high. Would suggest 'fairly high'/'high', to keep it in line with Thunderbolt-strength.

Focus Punch... well, it's HB-level in the games, so I don't have a problem with it being that strong. Not sure about the 'impervious' bit, since theoretically someone could order their 'mon to charge up an FP while using their fist to block attacks.
>Implying thunderbolt isn't at significant.

Also with the impervious to attacks thing, I saw Steelie ref it one time as when I used it to block a thunderbolt or somesuch, it lost around a thunderbolt's worth of strength.

I'm still dubious about any HB level typed moves, given that in our 4 HB health system it allows for OHKO's. I'd at least give them all the same drawback as giga impact.
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