UPNetwork  

Go Back   UPNetwork > Independent Forums > PASBL > Suggestions and Inquiries

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-24-2009, 03:30 PM   #1
Lonely Cubone
Gee, Brain...
 
Lonely Cubone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,103
Send a message via MSN to Lonely Cubone
Extended Short Term Agility

...or indeed, extended Short-Term anything.

Now, I know Muyo used this so it's now tactic of the month for anyone watching him spank ID (that'd be everyone then) but seriously, this seems a bizzare one.

How can you do an extended short-term anything. It's an oxymoron. Surely what you are ordering is either two seperate agilities and it should be reffed as such (i.e if you're using an EST Agility with an attack, that's your three mover) or you're ordering a long term agility, which is fine. I appreciate that in order to use it as a one move combo, it uses a lot of energy, but it just seems an inconsistency.

Would be interested to see what others think on that.
Lonely Cubone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 04:39 PM   #2
Firewater
Volcano Badge
 
Firewater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,726
Send a message via Skype™ to Firewater
simple as this, since I just reffed an Extended Blizzard or something similarily crazy.The point is that with the use of the attack means energy will be used. So hypothetically you could have an attack be used far longer than normal, except it costs more energy to use, so like the longer the move is held, the more energy it burns, if you use a Blizzard to block 2 attacks, then that's fine, it's just that you more or less can/could run your energy levels through the ground, use twice as much energy, and even run out of own type energy from doing this. but it seems to be ok at any rate.
__________________
PASBL: Record: 61-55-8, 361.5 TP, 174 KO, 2.5 SP, Trainer Level 5
My ASB pokes
Firewater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 04:41 PM   #3
iAmDewgong
Rainbow Badge
 
iAmDewgong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 788
Send a message via MSN to iAmDewgong
While that sounds good and all, FW, I still don't think you can dodge two things with one thing. We would have alot of

"Night Shade, Secret Power"

"Extended Agility yadda, FC Hyper Drill"

and that is boring. I'm kinda with LC here.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dosuser
Metagro├č: Male Beldum
Metagro├č is a totally metal dude. One day, Kuno's voice boomed out, "YOUR STRUGGLE TOTALLY MAKES YOU METAL." This benediction fueled Metagro├č' determination to keep struggling to the very end. In his neverending struggle to fulfill his destiny, Metagro├č sought out Morg for enlightenment. Morg looked with respect upon Metagro├č' tireless struggle and permitted him to train alongside his Magikarp. Now, Metagro├č has learned not to be mastered by its struggle, but to be the master of its Struggle.
iAmDewgong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 04:42 PM   #4
Lady Kuno
Sad times are just times that are sad
 
Lady Kuno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 226,180
I ref short agility as a decent bit of energy. But to keep that up it will blow through your energy very fast, especially if you pair it with attacks. Oh yeah it's pretty much the epitome of "moves to make you start breathing heavy when abused" as well.
__________________
If it is not a
Caterpie it simply
does not matter pie
~ haiku, Morg 2017
JUST NUKE THE FUCKING SUN


Spoiler: show
Lady Kuno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 04:58 PM   #5
Firewater
Volcano Badge
 
Firewater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,726
Send a message via Skype™ to Firewater
yeah, I mean technically, in the Anime, when you see the 2-3 min standoffs between 2 pokemon, the attacks are taking far more energy than normal, so it's obvious that that kind of effect would work in the same situation
__________________
PASBL: Record: 61-55-8, 361.5 TP, 174 KO, 2.5 SP, Trainer Level 5
My ASB pokes
Firewater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 05:40 PM   #6
Tyranidos
beebooboobopbooboobop
 
Tyranidos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Krusty Krab
Posts: 3,808
Send a message via AIM to Tyranidos Send a message via MSN to Tyranidos
Graveler

Yeah.

Just up the energy use and it's 'k.
Tyranidos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 09:23 PM   #7
Amras.MG
Not sure if gone...
 
Amras.MG's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Or just lurking.
Posts: 2,720
GO SUPER MG USE OF BLIZZARD!
Amras.MG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2009, 09:55 PM   #8
Jerichi
本✚能
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,533
People should keep in mind that clunkier, slower or Pokemon not familiar with Agility will have much more difficulty pulling this off and likely use more energy.

I could see a Doduo doing this without much problem, but a Bibarel won't be pulling this off with too much ease.

Also, they're likely to at least be hit by part of the attack unless they're familiar with Agility or have some sort of speed boost. The more tired they are, the more likely it will fail, and the bigger and easier to anticipate the attack is, the more likely it is to miss (generally).

At least that's how I ref it.

Last edited by Jerichi; 08-24-2009 at 09:59 PM.
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 03:31 AM   #9
Muyotwo
Dominator of Bike Levels
 
Muyotwo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,309
As the father of extended burst form agility, I have a few disclaimers about its use that I think are generally overlooked.

1.) PokÚmon not generally familiar with agility burn energy far greater than those who learn the move naturally.

2.) PokÚmon that fly/swim expend far less energy using maintained agility in flight/water than a similar pokÚmon would on land, due to basic principles of conservation of momentum.

Dragonite is both a natural agility user and a flier, so she used much less energy than a comparable land based PokÚmon would. Referees need to take this into account, and by-and-large an extended burst agility form would probably use twice or more than the agility of the standard one, with longer agilities consuming more energy per second than the second before.

tl;dr, it's not a "get out of attacks free, lulz" card, but if it is being reffed as one, I will rewrite agility to exclude this use.
Muyotwo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2009, 10:00 AM   #10
Lady Kuno
Sad times are just times that are sad
 
Lady Kuno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 226,180
I do like the bonus to Pokemon who actually learn agility. I think nobody refs the whole "chance to fuck up if they don't learn it" and just assume every Pokemon does. >_>
__________________
If it is not a
Caterpie it simply
does not matter pie
~ haiku, Morg 2017
JUST NUKE THE FUCKING SUN


Spoiler: show
Lady Kuno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 03:46 PM   #11
Concept
Archbishop of Banterbury
 
Concept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nipple-Hunting with Elsie and Kairne
Posts: 6,969
Send a message via Skype™ to Concept
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muyotwo View Post
1.) PokÚmon not generally familiar with agility burn energy far greater than those who learn the move naturally.
But far less than the rounds worth of attacks you're dodging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muyotwo
tl;dr, it's not a "get out of attacks free, lulz" card, but if it is being reffed as one, I will rewrite agility to exclude this use.
What it essentially creates is a system whereby unless you restrict yourself to spread out attacks (icy wind, psychic wave etc), attacking when going first is retarded against anyone who's willing to be this cheap. You'll be wasting more energy using two attacks than your opponent will dodging it, and take damage/status/whatever they choose to use as a second move on top of it. Normally to get that kind of an advantage going second you'd have to use a three mover (dodge+dodge+other move) but now people can do it every single round.

Alternatively, people will just start using even more extensive "if" orders on the off chance their opponent will do it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTerry
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

Last edited by Concept; 08-26-2009 at 03:48 PM.
Concept is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 04:04 PM   #12
Lady Kuno
Sad times are just times that are sad
 
Lady Kuno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 226,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concept View Post
Normally to get that kind of an advantage going second you'd have to use a three mover (dodge+dodge+other move) but now people can do it every single round.
Man has a good point. That's pretty freaking cheap. Tdos did a similar thing with rollout in our gym match, where he got to dodge 2 attacks in one move and it was a real wtf thing. If he's using the attack to dodge 2 moves, even if he orders to roll around like an idiot, should be 2 moves. Just like how jumping in the air won't count as an attack, but jumping to avoid a hyper beam is.
__________________
If it is not a
Caterpie it simply
does not matter pie
~ haiku, Morg 2017
JUST NUKE THE FUCKING SUN


Spoiler: show
Lady Kuno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 04:07 PM   #13
ZoraJolteon
BBCode Master
 
ZoraJolteon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,029
If your ref doesn't place diminishing returns on the speed boost granted by repeated Agility uses, you should fire them.
__________________

Superior Christmas Banner is Superior.
Also still looking for ref with brain, although not just now due to Tyranidos running in fear.
ZoraJolteon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 04:28 PM   #14
Lady Kuno
Sad times are just times that are sad
 
Lady Kuno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 226,180
All you really need is 2 rounds of "fuck whatever the enemy does then rape them in the ass" to really beat up most pokemon. There is no strategy in this, especially since the other Pokemon will stare in wonderment at all the energy being charged just inches away.
__________________
If it is not a
Caterpie it simply
does not matter pie
~ haiku, Morg 2017
JUST NUKE THE FUCKING SUN


Spoiler: show
Lady Kuno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 04:37 PM   #15
ZoraJolteon
BBCode Master
 
ZoraJolteon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,029
>the other Pokemon will stare in wonderment at all the energy being charged just inches away.

If your ref does this you should fire them.
__________________

Superior Christmas Banner is Superior.
Also still looking for ref with brain, although not just now due to Tyranidos running in fear.
ZoraJolteon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 04:40 PM   #16
Lady Kuno
Sad times are just times that are sad
 
Lady Kuno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 226,180
Unless we changed the rules about "wait till the end of the round and then ____", you have a 5% chance of avoiding imminent doom.
__________________
If it is not a
Caterpie it simply
does not matter pie
~ haiku, Morg 2017
JUST NUKE THE FUCKING SUN


Spoiler: show
Lady Kuno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 04:41 PM   #17
iAmDewgong
Rainbow Badge
 
iAmDewgong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 788
Send a message via MSN to iAmDewgong
Unless Jeri is reffing :'D
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dosuser
Metagro├č: Male Beldum
Metagro├č is a totally metal dude. One day, Kuno's voice boomed out, "YOUR STRUGGLE TOTALLY MAKES YOU METAL." This benediction fueled Metagro├č' determination to keep struggling to the very end. In his neverending struggle to fulfill his destiny, Metagro├č sought out Morg for enlightenment. Morg looked with respect upon Metagro├č' tireless struggle and permitted him to train alongside his Magikarp. Now, Metagro├č has learned not to be mastered by its struggle, but to be the master of its Struggle.
iAmDewgong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 04:44 PM   #18
Concept
Archbishop of Banterbury
 
Concept's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Nipple-Hunting with Elsie and Kairne
Posts: 6,969
Send a message via Skype™ to Concept
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoraJolteon View Post
>the other Pokemon will stare in wonderment at all the energy being charged just inches away.

If your ref does this you should fire them.
As I understand it, as it stands pokemon are stupid. If you aren't doing that, you should be fired (even if I do have some sympathy for Mozz' proposed rule changes).
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by PTerry
What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?
Concept is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 06:05 PM   #19
Jerichi
本✚能
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by iAmDewgong View Post
Unless Jeri is reffing :'D
I don't do it for a myriad of reasons:

1) I feel like it's kind of cheating you out of energy and can pretty much screw you over if you're unlucky enough to have it miss.

2) Putting that much consistent uncertainty into whether your attacks will hit or not and putting it that much into the battle irks me a little.

3) RNGing every attack is cumbersome.

Now, I do make concessions and will allow for partial dodge or reduced damage, especially for bigger attacks, but I'm not going to punish you directly for "wait until its done"s.

Well, at least not in that manner. I'm not very forgiving when it comes to spamming a bunch of attacks in conjunction with Shadow Balls/Hyper Beams/whatever and you'll suffer major reductions if you try it that way.

I do agree that something needs to be done about it because it's not as much strategy as it is "omg big attak!11!1!1" and I think far too many refs will let you get away with that. I only ref it the way I do because I'm too nice and I can't find any balanced alternatives (also it's a bitch to RNG everything for the 5% and I'd prefer to be consistent). Any ideas?
__________________


気紛れを 許して 今更なんて思わずに急かしてよ
もっと中迄入って あたしの衝動を 突き動かしてよ

asbwffb

[jerichi]
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 10:45 PM   #20
Shadowshocker
used First Impression
 
Shadowshocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,037
It might be the nature of my reffing system that quite rigidises how Pokemon take damage, but I agree with the lack of punishing waiting out. If the alternative is a Dopple system (no offence to said veteran) where there are no guarantees and risks will randomly be rewarded by ref discretion, don't be surprised if people start complaining a lot. Sure, faeces happens, but that's no excuse to make things ornately more difficult than they need to be.

Going back on the topic, Concept hit the nail on the head. There should be maximum limits as to how attacks can be stretched; otherwise you could feasibly argue that a Pokemon can take a soopuh-deep breath and blast an opponent for two moves' worth of Blizzard and simply have the energy multiplied, for instance.
Shadowshocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2009, 10:48 PM   #21
Jerichi
本✚能
 
Jerichi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 蒸気の波の中
Posts: 14,533
Quote:
Going back on the topic, Concept hit the nail on the head. There should be maximum limits as to how attacks can be stretched; otherwise you could feasibly argue that a Pokemon can take a soopuh-deep breath and blast an opponent for two moves' worth of Blizzard and simply have the energy multiplied, for instance.
I hope people at least have the common sense to know that you're probably not going to get much more than a few seconds out of most attacks like that and for lessened damage, increased energy, or both.
__________________


気紛れを 許して 今更なんて思わずに急かしてよ
もっと中迄入って あたしの衝動を 突き動かしてよ

asbwffb

[jerichi]
Jerichi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2009, 03:46 AM   #22
Insidious_Dreamer
Marsh Badge
 
Insidious_Dreamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seireitei
Posts: 1,703
Send a message via AIM to Insidious_Dreamer Send a message via MSN to Insidious_Dreamer
I expect that people get the idea. It's feasible to have something extended, though on certain attacks. I should probably make mention that the first time Muyo did it in our match, his Dragonite did take a little from the second attack that he dodged with the one Agility. And for that matter, you're a fool should you order an extended Tackle. For the matter, there aren't too many instances where I can feasibly see an extended Blizzard outlasting and successfully blocking to moves. If that's the case, then it is ridiculous.

Also, should we ever change the "wait til he's done then ____" rule, I can't see it being anymore than an increase to the dodge chance, bordering on the mozz-style of dodging.
__________________



Looks like I might be here to stay...

PASBL Trainer Level: 4 | 26-12-8 | 77 KO's | 199 TP | 0 SP
PASBL Referee (C+)
| Squad | League Table |

[.:Badges:.]
Reffing Badge
Onslaught Badge
Insidious_Dreamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   UPNetwork > Independent Forums > PASBL > Suggestions and Inquiries


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:02 AM.


Design By: Miner Skinz.com
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.