View Single Post
Old 06-04-2014, 11:59 PM   #38
Poison Jam
Slash's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Tokyo Underground Sewage Facility
Posts: 6,019
Send a message via Yahoo to Slash Send a message via Skype™ to Slash
Okay, let me open this post up by saying one thing: Normal nerf is ridiculous and stupid and shouldn't be a thing, especially since Clefable and Wigglytuff, the poster children for the whole idea of normal nerf, no longer fit the criterium of pure Normal-type.

Now, Snorlax, Lickilicky? Sure, they probably need nerfed. Delcatty (as has been pointed out), generic rodents, Stoutland, etc? It needlessly punishes them for having a type that has no resistances, and whose one weakness is so widespread with moves like Rock Smash, Brick Break, and Focus Punch it's utterly ridiculous. Having the Normal type is enough of a curse for them, we don't need to shit on them more. They rely entirely on off-type to ever have any hope of inflicting super-effective damage. They are the only type that lacks any resistances, AND they are also the only type that (sigs excepted, because that's a different thing entirely) have no super-effective coverage of their own. This combined with the Normal nerf is a double jeopardy for them, especially the ones that don't have an ocean and six generations backing them up like Snorlax.

One thing that's always irked me about it as well is that if we're going to nerf all (or even most) Normals on type energy, why do we let things like Octillery, Nidoroyals, and Absol cruise around free of that curse? You can't look me in the eye and tell me Delcatty or Raticate are objectively even near their level, and they get STAB that has SE.

In sum re: Normal nerf, the fact that they have an above average amount of types they have access to is more than balanced by their lack of ability to deal super-effective damage without dipping into limited off-typed and lack of resistances. Especially since Clefable is no longer Normal at all, and Wigglytuff is Normal/Fairy and therefore had to specifically be noted as an exception to dual-typed Normals not getting the Normal nerf. It no longer makes any sense (not that it made too much from the start) to nerf all Normals like that.

Originally Posted by Kindrindra View Post
The one concern I have (under either solution) is: What about pokemon which get a lot of moves of a type, but don't have familiarity or anything of the like? Kangaskhan with Fighting? Electabuzz with Fighting? Gligar with Bug? Or would those fall under fauxmiliarity?
This kind of thing is part of why I don't want a fully standardised scale, to be honest. because everyone's interpretation is going to be different. Some will feel comfortable giving Gyarados a Fire Blast and a Flamethrower with no issue. Others 2 Flamethrowers exactly, and others still might not even give him a HB's worth of Fire energy. By imposing something strict for them, I feel like it craps all over the idea of ref's discretion when it comes to type energies. This also ties in to my nest response.

Originally Posted by Kindrindra View Post
EDIT: Also, I'll admit that I'm a bit of a fan of how iirc Kairne does it- Pokemon with less off-types will have more energy(/faster regen) of the types they do have access to, while Pokemon with more off-types will have less(/slower regen) of each type. I think this would serve as a valid way to put the subjective issue of 'movepool behemoths' to rest once and for all.
That's exactly how I roll with it. Pokemon like Sylveon I'll give some more off-type because it only has, what, three off-types? Fauxmiliarity should also adjust with it. I'd give all waters with Ice attacks two Ice Beams minimum of Ice, and most around two Blizzards. Octillery and Gyarados wade in the lower end because they have impressive movepools already, and have some thematic and movepool quirks that are less compatible with Ice than most waters (both have reliable Fire, Octillery is a cannon, and Gyarados has the pseudo-dragon thing going on), where I'd be like to give Luvdisc straight up 2 HB of Ice energy.

Most Ices (with any water moves) I'd give two Blizzards' worth of Water, because most have shit for movepool. Frosslass, less so. Beartic has a few more water moves than most and is a capable swimmer, so he'd get more.

Same with Ground and Rock's relationship. On average, I'd give most rocks more ground, than I'd give grounds rock energy. Nidoking is getting less Rock energy than Rampardos is of Ground.

Now, I put several factors into this. Thematics and movepool are the biggest ones. Cubone has a million Fighting moves, so of course he gets more Fighting energy than he does of most other types. Masquerain evolves from a water-type, so it will of course have increased water and ice pools. Gligar is an arachnid, and will get more Bug energy. I put this up and then adjust by looking at how extensive the off-type access they have is, and good old fashioned gut feeling.

Now, this leaves a lot open to discretion. Does Ninetails get more Ghost, more Psychic, more Dark, some combination, or none of them? Up to the ref. As long as they are consistent, ref's discretion is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Jerichi View Post
For a number of years now, our policy on type energy has been rather lax. While we've generally advertized basic standards, we have never formalized the standards. With the changes in health and energy and the shifting of the meta, we've decided it's time to lay down standard guidelines in order to give battlers a better idea of what their type energy tanks are like and to (possibly) make ref's lives easier.

At the moment, there are two main proposals that have been brought up by LOs, though we may consider others.

The first is as follows:

The second is a little more complicated:

In addition, there will likely be another rule added to further define familiarity, and though largely an accessory to this discussion, it is good to keep in mind for balance purposes.

Now, here's a major thing I've said before, and will probably have to say a million more times: since health and energy were increased to 6/9 standard, type energy needs to be increased, too. Not proportionally, because then we'd run into some of the same problems we had in 4/6, but there needs to be some increase.

For one, I think that familiarity should never be lower than 2 HB, whether by sig, SC, or whatever. 2 HB should also be the extreme upper limit for fauxmiliarity, for extremes like Luvdisc and Alomomololola, with the range being from about 1.4 HB to 2 HB, depending on factors. I've seen some claiming 1.5 HB for familiarity but back in 4/6, many gave more than that for fauxmiliarity, so 1.5 HB for familiarity just doesn't cut it. Not in 4/6, and definitely not in 6/9.

Now, in response to the options presented. Type energy guidelines look great, for rough guidelines. However I cannot stress enough the importance of allowing for variation and discretion because, at the end of the day, the human factor and freedom of interpretation is a big thing that sets us apart from the things like TPM and Smogon's supposed ASBs.

The reed option looks great, on paper, but, honestly, I don't trust most refs to do it with less maths and more feels, which I think is needed for such a system. No insult meant, but the newer generations of refs are getting more and more hung up on the maths and formulae and leaving less room for the aforementioned human factor and gut feelings. We don't need more formulae and exact measurements. We need more "'thiiiiis' much", and I don't think the ASB as it currently stands is moving in a direction I'd trust to handle that system.

Also, SC familiarity and fauxmiliarity need to be less stingy. Only a handful of Pokemon have familiarity in SCs that isn't Psychic due to telekinetic Psychic, and most that aren't the Psychic ones are only given due to relation to another Pokemon, such as Bunnelby or Mudkip. Off the top of my head I can only think of the fireflies (which are "a little more Electric", not "familiar with electric") and Solrock that are separate. And if the SC says "has more [type] energy" giving fauxmiliarity, it still leaves it open to ref's interpretation where on the fauxmiliarity scale they set it.

We as a community should also be getting at least some general idea of what the SC overhaul is doing, and, moreover, how it's going. These two issues are intimately linked, and we've seen maybe a few tiny peeks into what's going on with them, and they seem to be stuck in the same ASB limbo that everything seems to fall into.

I know, it's largely an LO thing, too many cooks spoil the soup, and a million other cliches. But we're so in the dark on this we're not even sure there is a light bulb anymore.

So, my big opinion on the reed option boils down to this: if we are seriously considering this option, we need to do a few trial battles with that system, with known, salted refs doing the test drive, refs like Dave, Sneezey, and myself. If it works out well, we have a base to jump from and we can take our directions from there. If it derails, crashes and burns with seasoned refs in the captain's chair, then there's no way we can make it standard.

This ended up much longer than intended, and took a long time to type up, too.
Slash is offline   Reply With Quote