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-   -   Pokemon Level Acquisitions - The New Kids (http://forums.upnetwork.net/showthread.php?t=7847)

Connor 12-16-2016 05:29 AM

Pokemon Level Acquisitions - The New Kids
 
The League Officials and those affiliated have been working tirelessly to bring you Generation 7 before Christmas, and we're finally nearing the end reaches of the project. With that in mind, we're asking you, the community, to give us some input regarding the acquisitions, as we understand this is something we should not undertake solely on our own. We understand that you do this without SC information, but in the cases of things being very borderline, I'd ask you to shift them upwards rather than downwards as the vast majority of the SCs this generation are useful.

Preliminary Trainer Level listing is as below. Please give feedback!

Spoiler: show
Trainer Level 1

Alola Diglett
Alola Geodude
Alola Meowth
Alola Rattata
Alola Sandshrew
Alola Vulpix
Bounsweet
Cosmoem
Cosmog
Crabrawler
Cutiefly
Dewpider
Formantis
Grubbin
Jangmo'o
Litten
Mareanie
Morelull
Mudbray
Pikipek
Popplio
Pyukumuku
Rockruff
Rowlet
Salandit
Sandygeist
Stufful
Wimpod
Wishiwashi
Yungoose

Trainer Level 2

Alola Dugtrio
Alola Graveler
Alola Grimer
Alola Ninetales
Alola Sandslash
Bruxish
Charjabug
Comfey
Brionne
Dartrix
Gumshoos
Hakamo-o
Lurantis
Lycanroc
Minior
Oricorio
Shiinotic
Steenee
Togedamaru
Torracat
Trumbreak
Type: Null

Trainer Level 3

Alola Raticate
Araquanid
Crabominable
Komala
Kommo-o
Mimikyu
Palossand
Passimian
Ribombee
Salazzle
Toucannon
Toxapex
Tsareena

Trainer Level 4

Alola Exeggutor
Alola Golem
Alola Persian
Bewear
Decidueye
Dhelmise
Golisopod
Incineroar
Mudsdale
Oranguru
Primarine
Turtonator
Vikavolt

Tapu Koko [Legend Challenge]
Tapu Lele [Legend Challenge]
Tapu Bulu[ Legend Challenge]
Tapu Fini [Legend Challenge]
Nihilego [Legend Challenge]
Pheromosa [Legend Challenge]
Buzzwole [Legend Challenge]
Xurkitree [Legend Challenge]
Kartana [Legend Challenge]

Trainer Level 5

Alola Muk
Alola Marowak
Alola Raichu
Silvally

Solgaleo [Legend Challenge]
Lunala [Legend Challenge]
Celesteela [Legend Challenge]
Guzzlord [Legend Challenge]
Necrozma [Legend Challenge]
Magearna [Legend Challenge]
Marshadow [Legend Challenge]


Trainer Level 6
Drampa


Possible swing Pokemon denoted with ** with the TL it could move to in parenthesis.

TalkSick 12-16-2016 06:12 AM

Vikavolt imo should be acquisition level 4 as it is quite a bit better than Galvantula, as it gets flight, steel off type, ground off type, Zap Cannon and Roost. The only thing of note that the electric spider has that it could do with are Leech Life and Spider Web. It should be on par with better bug types like Crustle, Armaldo, Durant, Golisopod and Scizor.

Mudsdale could be acquisition level 5 because of its ridiculously high weight. It doesn't have a flashy movepool like most AL5 pokemon, but it gets stuff to abuse its weight like Body Slam, Stomp and Heavy Slam.

Snorby 12-16-2016 08:24 AM

Agreeing with Vikavolt rising to 4- it's really the Escavalier to galvantula's Scizor- incredibly similar, but objectively better in every way.

Araquanid should probably be TL2. It's decidedly mediocre, even if the typing is top notch. The only way I see it in TL3 is if we give it Water Bubble: the SC. Other than that case, it pales in comparison to other TL3 waters.

Kommo-O I'm super on the fence with, but considering what a barren wasteland the low TLs are for both of its types, I'm leaning TL3 so long as Clanging Scales isn't insanity.

Alolan Muk feels decidedly TL6 to me. Honestly it doesn't miss a huge amount of stuff in comparison to regular Muk- Ice Punch seems the biggest loss, and the huge upgrade in typing makes that more than worth it, imo.

Ribombee I feel is TL3 material. The typing is decent, the movepool is really strong both offensively and defensively, and it just generally seems much closer to watchog than farfetch'd.

Toxapex seems better for TL3 to me; it really has nothing special going for it that your average Mon of the typing doesn't have (baneful bunker aside), so unless the SC is REALLY dumb, TL3 seems a good home for it.

Buzzwole I feel could drop to TL4 by dint of godawful typing and a distinct lack of high power moves, but it is pretty borderline honestly.

Emi 12-16-2016 09:47 AM

I think Buzzwole is fine at TL5: It's fighting stab is pretty top notch, it learns great bug moves outside of Megahorn, and its off-type coverage is pretty incredible for a pre-tutor Pokemon. I feel its considerably better than Pheromosa, who is a Pokemon that feels very lackluster in ASB, and it sort of bothers me both would be at the same TL.

I might say Ribombee and Toxapex to TL3 and Vikavolt to TL4.

Snorby 12-16-2016 09:55 AM

The issue with that is that legends are tiered more on their own merit than on viability in comparison to other legends. Thundurus is literally Zapdos but better and we aren't shoving it in tl5.

Buzzwole is much, much closer to thundurus, Terrakion, or Tapu Lele than it is to Solgaelo, Latios, or Magearna

Connor 12-16-2016 10:24 AM

Since these two I believe really do warrant the SC being considered, Araquanid and Toxapex;

Quote:

Araquanid (Water/Bug): Araquanid are adept both on land and in water, being able to propel themselves with their bubble when submerged. Their Water type attacks are amplified by the watery bubble surrounding their body, dealing an additional 20% damage. In addition, this barrier will significantly reduce the power of incoming Fire moves.
Quote:

Toxapex (Water/Poison): Toxapex are slow moving Pokemon, preferring to walk along the bottom of the water rather than actively swim. They are able to swim, but are not very proficient, and will easily be overpowered by currents. Toxapex have particularly powerful toxins stored within their body, which allow their Poison type attacks to deal an extra 20% damage to Pokemon suffering from the Poison status. They are also rather sturdy, taking 10% less damage from physical blows.
re: Alolan Muk it loses Thunderbolt, Thunder, Shock Wave, Fire Punch, Dynamic Punch (this is quite big), Ice Punch, Giga Drain. I can see it being TL6 but I would like more opinions. It does of course gain Dark STAB and Stone Edge, which is why I'm agreeing with you partially that it could go to 6.

I can also see Buzzwole down to 4 but, again, wouldn't mind seeing a bit more input on that particular one. Good stuff so far though folks let's keep this up!

list of things I agree with movement of:

Spoiler: show
Vikavolt to 4
Mudsdale to 5
Kommo-o remaining 3
Ribombee to 3

Shuckle 12-16-2016 10:28 AM

Ninetales-A at TL2 seems low. Ninetales itself is at TL4, after all. Also, Ninetales can cover Steels with her fire moves, and Fighting/Poison/Rock pretty easily with her grass and psychic moves. Also, her ability is Snow Warning (although we don't give regular Ninetales Drought, although maybe we could, although whatever Idfk)

Aurorus, another Ice type with a 4x weakness to Steel (plus an added weakness to Fighting and a weaker offensive presence, with only Bulldoze/EQ to cover any of its weaknesses), is TL3.

I'm not a very good battler which is why I'm not making any crazy arguments - 4x weaknesses are pretty crippling, and it's not like Ninetales is standout broken - but I just don't see her being the same level as Togedemaru and Dartrix. I think she's a lot better than that.

Snorby 12-16-2016 10:33 AM

Alolan Ninetales and regular Ninetales don't share a moveset. Shuckle. It has no fire moves or grass moves or any of that.

Is Mudsdale really a five? I get that it's stupid huge, but so is golurk, which has a LOT more going for it and iirc is tl4

Given the SCs I can see Toxapex in TL4, though it hardly breaks TL3- Look at Seismitoad. Araquanid feels solidly 3 given that SC though.

Connor 12-16-2016 10:41 AM

Golurk also has a lot more weaknesses. Grass/Water/Ice as opposed to Grass/Water/Ice/Dark/Ghost. I can see where you're coming from though I do admit. I'll ruminate on it and see what others' opinions are. In my eyes Mudsdale is one of those that has just the right tools to be really, really dumb. That said I'm starting to see it as somewhat analogous to Hippowdon, which is why I want other thoughts.

Alolan-Ninetales is really, really, really excruciatingly bad. Even if we gave it Snow Warning I would be hard pressed to put it into 3.

Sneaze 12-16-2016 10:53 AM

I'll pop in a full list later but I whole heartedly agree on Alolan Muk being TL6. The list of stuff it loses for the new type is honestly less than I would expect if someone tried to pull a similar type change, and I think it also gains new moves? Either way it should easily be on pat wit regular Muk at TL6.

Shuckle 12-16-2016 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorby (Post 776910)
Alolan Ninetales and regular Ninetales don't share a moveset. Shuckle. It has no fire moves or grass moves or any of that.

I got confused thinking about Exeggutor :( whoopsie

Zelphon 12-16-2016 11:25 AM

Cosmoen weighs like, the most of any pokemon by a large margin. And we give everything Body Slam. You sure you want that anywhere but TL7?

Snorby 12-16-2016 11:30 AM

Counterpoint: Torment

Concept 12-16-2016 11:42 AM

Hi, I'm Concept and I approve this TL list.

General rule for the swing ones though; err on the side of lower for all of them, and if it causes an overcentralising/balance problem you can fix it later. Giving more people access to a mon is always a good thing for diversity in the league, so as a rule of thumb mon should be at the lowest level where they won't cause a big balance issue even if they're still a solid pick a level higher.

/oldmanopinions

Kyuu-Tales 12-16-2016 01:41 PM

This lineup is more or less what I had in mind.

My thoughts on the swing 'mon:
  • Unless you're going to make a big deal about Ribombee's speed, I think it should be moved to Level 2 because of how frail it is. Keep Lurantis as is.
  • Because of Wimpod's niche as a two-mover, I think Golisopod should be treated as Gyarados otherwise would.
  • Even with that SC, Araquanid isn't that stellar. Toxapex on the other hand is rather resilient.
  • Although the Starters' final evolutions are very good, they are not Level 4 material.
  • Put Mudsdale at Level 5. It's an incredible tank with phenomenal defensive capabilities.
  • Kommo-o's stats are quite good, but it can go either way. Us its SC to determine its final placement.
  • Vikavolt has Legendary-tier offensives. Strongly consider changing its level to 4.
  • Dhelmise is a tad more specialized than Decidueye, with slightly higher stats. Keep it at its current level.
  • Move Marshadow and Necrozma to Level 6.

Stealthy 12-16-2016 02:21 PM

...ASB doesn't use base stats dude.

Connor 12-16-2016 02:39 PM

Yeah using base stats as reference is not how ASB works.

re: Muk I double checked and the stuff I noted it losing before remain the notable stuff. Gained it gets Snarl, Pursuit, other assorted Dark stuff, Stone Edge and Spite. That coupled with a better defensive typing and the fact it has a slightly buffed SC (take my word as the one who wrote it) I'm gonna agree on shifting it to 6. Nice catch.

phoopes 12-16-2016 03:31 PM

I know I'm not active anymore, but Kommo-o at TL3 seems kind of fishy to me

Connor 12-16-2016 03:41 PM

Haxorus is at absolute best a low TL4.

Kommo-o is Haxorus with less options and a worse typing. It's a high TL3, but a TL3.

(For reference, Haxorus is weak to Fairy, Ice and Dragon. Kommo-o is weak to Psychic, Flying, Dragon, Ice and a double weak to Fairy).

Snorby 12-16-2016 03:58 PM

Why, Phoopes? It has 5 weaknesses, only one of which is uncommon, and one of which is 4x. Its offensive offtypes are incredibly limited by the standards of both of its types (its useful offtype moves are flamethrower, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Poison jab, and Flash Cannon. That's pretty much it), and it has all of three damaging moves for its most useful STAB. It doesn't even have size going for it- it's around the size of a Typhlosion, which is super middling, even at TL3.

As an aside, have we considered retiering Dodrio? I know it isn't a new mon, but it got significant buffs this gen. It got both Jump Kick and Swords Dance, which are honestly pretty huge for it. With those moves, I feel like it's now pretty comparable to Staraptor- Dodrio doesn't have U-Turn or Heat Wave, actual flight, or buffed accuracy, but gets SC boosts to Tri Attack and Beak moves, access to Taunt, SD, and Pursuit, with buffed movement as icing on the cake. I see them as pretty even with Dodrio getting fighting offtype now.

EDIT: oops, ninja'd by Connor on the first point. Rip.

Kyuu-Tales 12-16-2016 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealthy (Post 776945)
...ASB doesn't use base stats dude.

I spend time away from PASBL for two months and look at what happens. Fcuk me. Thanks Stealthy, Connor.
  • Still consider Kommo-o on the basis of its (likely scale-based) SC. It's rather small on the one hand, but its diverse movepool make it potent combatant.
  • Vikavolt should be changed to 4 if the properties associated with Levitate are included in its SC.
  • Unless the implementation of Z-Moves is expected to be a real game-changer, I'd rather the Starters' final evolutions be dropped to 3.
  • Mudsdale is both heavy and a force to be reckoned with as a draft horse; I can't imagine its SC detracting from that. Change it to Level 5.
  • Golisopod's typing isn't bad and it's built solid. However, it's the SC that should be taken account here, especially if it was written to reflect Emergency Exit.
  • I feel like Araquanid's SC warrants a downgrade to Level 2. It's a specialized and more mobile version of Golisopod. (Besides, correct me if I am wrong, but judging from the SC I assume the rest of its body is still vulnerable to fire, no?)
  • Toxapex is like a wall of spikes, but its signature move Baneful Bunker suggests it has very little business moving much anywhere. That can be a handicap in any number of ways. Leave it as is.
  • Ribombee and Lurantis have great potential considering their movepools, but their typing is decent at best. I imagine the former being agile and small, sure... but not much else. Only Lurantis should be promoted.
  • Dhelmise is far larger than Decidueye, and its anchor-and-chain combo definitely packs a punch. Leave it.

TheKnightsFury 12-16-2016 04:35 PM

Toxapex- Tentacruel is better than this thing in nearly every way. TL3.

Araquanid-Yeah its movepool is pretty barren and it is a good typing. I would probably prefer to see it in TL3.

Mudsdale-The thing doesnt even get Stone Edge, has plenty of fighting moves but nothing in the way of recovery. Golurk is easily better, even with the extra weaknesses because it has a sizeable movepool. TL4.

Alolan Muk-Defs TL6, it is better than Drapion and easily the same level as normal Muk.

Alolan Grimer- I think we should consider pushing this thing into TL2

Kyuu-Tales 12-16-2016 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snorby (Post 776953)
As an aside, have we considered retiering Dodrio?

What about Masquerain? It got a well-deserved tuneup this Gen as well. (Just my two cents.)

TheKnightsFury 12-16-2016 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyuu-Tales (Post 776961)
What about Masquerain? It got a well-deserved tuneup this Gen as well. (Just my two cents.)

That was in stats, stats have no effect on ASB at all. If we went off of stats, things would be a lot different and probably terrible lol.

Ironthunder 12-16-2016 05:30 PM

Personally I could see Kommo-o in TL4- it's no doubt got some absurd defensive buff from the scales, and it naturally has access to enough stuff to boost basically every stat. Notable moves are SD, Autotomize (although the speed buff for that needs clarifying), Bulk Up, Work Up and Iron Defense, with debuffing capabilities from Noble Roar, Screech and actually being able to use Scary Face and Roar against a majority of mons because damn that thing looks scary. It's not great by any stretch, but it feels like it's definitely strong enough if you know how to work with buffs and debuffs. Won't really argue too heavily with a TL3 placement though.


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