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Jerichi 06-02-2016 08:26 PM

Exhaustion
 
...and eventually is now!

Alright, exhaustion has become a problem. I'm happy that people are enforcing one-move rounds and whatnot but it's gotten to the point where you basically cannot use high-power moves without totally screwing yourself.

Let's start by reading what the site says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Site
Exhaustion - Although Pokémon are generally trained fighters, they are not fighting machines, and require rests in order to fight efficiently and effectively. Every 3 or so rounds, perhaps longer if their rounds were relatively light, a Pokémon should have at least one round in which it uses either one move or two lower energy moves. Using a high-energy move as a one-mover will also somewhat mitigate their exhaustion, but not to same effect as other moves of lower energy. A Pokémon who is exhausted will have slower reaction times, move and use moves more slowly, and, if they go a number of rounds without a rest, will burn energy at an increased rate and eventually cause their moves to lose power. Using multiple high energy moves in a row can also cause exhaustion and can cause the moves to cost more energy and lose power faster than normal.

The intent: make your Pokémon be forced to take a break here and there in order to keep you from reeling off 4 Thunders in a row without drawback. (Notice that nowhere it says "using a move over X energy will cause exhaustion".)

The practice: people are making it so if you use a high energy move at all, you're immediately exhausted and suffer hugely as a consequence, and not stopping and dropping a full move will not mitigate your exhaustion at all.

This is partly my fault, as many common, high-power moves have had exhaustion written into them. The rule around exhaustion isn't also worded too clearly. But there are still some really bad habits that have been propagated. Let's take a closer look at the rule as written to clarify some points.

Quote:

Every 3 or so rounds, perhaps longer if their rounds were relatively light, a Pokémon should have at least one round in which it uses either one move or two lower energy moves.
This is the thing that really gets my goat more than anything else. I know that we have talked for ages about one-move rounds and how important they are, but - let's be honest - it's pretty rarely advantageous to just stop using moves in the middle of a match up. If you can find a good gap or can convince your opponent to have a mutual one-mover, great! But I wrote this into the rule because, strategically, it sucks to be forced to use one move.

I have seen this been more or less ignored, but it's really part of what will keep exhaustion from being crippling. Admittedly it's vague, but I think a good rule of thumb is if you're using a total of major (if it's still earlyish) to significant (if it's later) energy in a round, you should be given a break.

Quote:

Using a high-energy move as a one-mover will also somewhat mitigate their exhaustion, but not to same effect as other moves of lower energy.
So I will admit this is a pretty poorly worded part and while well-intentioned, probably does more harm than good. My original goal here was to make it so you can't just throw out a nuke as a one-mover and expect to be totally refreshed as a consequence. But now that I've experienced people playing with this rule, I think I'm going to go back on it. However, we still should have it so you can't get away totally scott-free with a Hyper Beam as a one mover. Please suggest better wording.

Quote:

A Pokémon who is exhausted will have slower reaction times, move and use moves more slowly, and, if they go a number of rounds without a rest, will burn energy at an increased rate and eventually cause their moves to lose power.
This part is probably taken a little too literally. I've notice refs basically cripple 'mon as a consequence of exhaustion and I think we really need to start viewing the drawbacks as a drop in Speed instead of making them basically unable to function as Pokémon. I also think this is probably set up poorly - we really should probably make Pokémon burn more energy sooner and make them slow later. Please discuss this point.

Now, some miscellany:

-If both Pokémon take a one-mover, they should both be refreshed. None of this "the round ends early, they're not refreshed" stuff. That is bad for balance.

-I will be writing exhaustion out of moves that are not Hyper Beam level.

-We really need to have a talk about Roost - it is kind of a bad thing to have a move that both restores health and puts you in an advantageous place energy-wise. We also probably need to discuss other energy-restoring moves as well but this is less pressing.

-We sort of need to talk about absolute nukes as well, e.g. things like Bide, Counter, Mirror Coat, etc., and how we want to handle those. The current rules don't do too well with them and what's come in their place make them really crippling and not really worth using unless you can score a safe KO.

I might think of other things later but I think this is a good jumping off point.

Discuss.

Fairfax 06-02-2016 08:38 PM

Quote:

Every 3 or so rounds, perhaps longer if their rounds were relatively light, a Pokémon should have at least one round in which it uses either one move or two lower energy moves. Using a high-energy move as a one-mover will also somewhat mitigate their exhaustion, but not to same effect as other moves of lower energy.
Replace with:

Quote:

Every 3 or so rounds, perhaps longer if their rounds were relatively light, a Pokémon should have at least one round in which it uses no more than a major amount of energy. As matchups continue and Pokémon tire more often, the amount of usable energy for these rounds should approach significant rather than major.
This consolidates some of the points you made above. There might still be a better way to word it, but this gets rid of a lot of now-unnecessary points.

Aposteriori 06-02-2016 08:52 PM

-We really need to have a talk about Roost - it is kind of a bad thing to have a move that both restores health and puts you in an advantageous place energy-wise. We also probably need to discuss other energy-restoring moves as well but this is less pressing.

I dont know why you guys made it dual. For the xx version it should be energy, and only flyers should get the perk of health roost if we are keeping it this way. The pseudo wish should be kept only for flyers.

-We sort of need to talk about absolute nukes as well, e.g. things like Bide, Counter, Mirror Coat, etc., and how we want to handle those. The current rules don't do too well with them and what's come in their place make them really crippling and not really worth using unless you can score a safe KO.

I still dont like how much bide can nuke, could we cap the damage somehow?

-If both Pokémon take a one-mover, they should both be refreshed. None of this "the round ends early, they're not refreshed" stuff. That is bad for balance.

Can this concept of one mover also apply for rounds where KOs have occured?

Jerichi 06-02-2016 08:57 PM

I'd like to be clear: this is not Move Rewrites. We are not discussing rewriting moves for reasons unrelated to exhaustion. The thread will open next week and that can be discussed in the appropriate place.

Zelphon 06-02-2016 09:03 PM

Clearly you turn exhaustion into a regenerative resource that works off the HB system. Perhaps have moves above or bellow certain energy cost thresholds cost more and perhaps restore pep respectively.

Moves can be used fine regardless of cost until you reach 0 pep but if you reach 0 you get seriously boned.

Aposteriori 06-03-2016 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aposteriori (Post 751075)
-If both Pokémon take a one-mover, they should both be refreshed. None of this "the round ends early, they're not refreshed" stuff. That is bad for balance.

Can this concept of one mover also apply for rounds where KOs have occured?


Ironthunder 06-03-2016 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aposteriori
-We really need to have a talk about Roost - it is kind of a bad thing to have a move that both restores health and puts you in an advantageous place energy-wise. We also probably need to discuss other energy-restoring moves as well but this is less pressing.

I dont know why you guys made it dual. For the xx version it should be energy, and only flyers should get the perk of health roost if we are keeping it this way. The pseudo wish should be kept only for flyers.

Roost hasn't been used in the anime (Or at least not where a google search can reveal), and so we're using the ingame version, which restores health, as a basis it would seem. It works well enough the way round that it is. Just write out the bit where it says 'This refreshes the user' and it's all gravy.

Although, basically everything that gets it is Flying typed, barring Dunsparce, Venomoth, Beedrill, Dustox, Volbeat, Illumise, Vibrava, Flygon, Hydreigon and Volcarona, plus Mew, the Latis, Reshy, Zekkers and Kyurem. 10 non-legend Pokemon have access to only non-flying Roost, legends boost it to 16, and of the ten mainly-accessible ones, most could probably use the healing to keep them semi-viable over other Bugs. Which version becomes STAB really doesn't matter much.

Quote:

-We sort of need to talk about absolute nukes as well, e.g. things like Bide, Counter, Mirror Coat, etc., and how we want to handle those. The current rules don't do too well with them and what's come in their place make them really crippling and not really worth using unless you can score a safe KO.

I still dont like how much bide can nuke, could we cap the damage somehow?
This should be explicitly stated, but I seem to recall people saying that there's an unofficial cap on Bide damage, like anything significantly over 1HB is not going to be as efficient. Like, I recall someone who was a good ref saying that reflecting nukes like Bide and Mirror Coat, plus Last Resort, should not be dealing significantly more than 2HB of damage without using significantly more energy.

Quote:

-If both Pokémon take a one-mover, they should both be refreshed. None of this "the round ends early, they're not refreshed" stuff. That is bad for balance.

Can this concept of one mover also apply for rounds where KOs have occurred?
I'm pretty sure it already does.

Aposteriori 06-03-2016 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironthunder (Post 751105)


I'm pretty sure it already does.

No. Connor moved away from single rounds where both use a one mover, but has kept that stipulation for rounds that end in a KO.

Ironthunder 06-03-2016 08:14 AM

I have never seen a one-mover which KOd that has not counted as a breather.

Aposteriori 06-03-2016 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ironthunder (Post 751108)
I have never seen a one-mover which KOd that has not counted as a breather.

Okay, you are right. You have never seen it. Feast your eyes. Connor was never wrong per say to start this trend because it has logical sense, but I held true to my opinion that it was a bit too logical and it punished the trainer that was being energy conservative while rewarded the one that was being reckless.

Connor 06-03-2016 09:42 AM

No because in so many instances the trainer who gets the KO has gone pedal to the metal and just forced energy out to make sure they could use that one mover on the KO round. Frankly for balance purposes it makes much more sense for it not to count because then you are actually rewarding clever, conservative play - they get to nuke the next switch in with a two mover of no doubt super effective damage while going second for the second round in a row. If anything I'd say make it commonplace and actually standardised that this is the way it works.

Snorby 06-03-2016 11:32 AM

Yeah, agreement with Connor here. 1 movers that cause a KO shouldn't count. Makes it way too easy to absolutely neuter your opponent with a three in the round before, then get almost no repercussions for it because you kill a sitting duck during your breather and are good to go for the next mon. It's problematic in the exact same way Switch = OK can be- I think everyone agrees we shouldn't be rewarding the battler who turrets typespam all day long, but more than a few things we end up doing do so anyway.

Altocharizard55 06-03-2016 12:21 PM

I think that should be up to ref's discretion to an extent, although I disagree with Connor's discretion in the match that was linked. Regardless of if it caused a KO or not, a one-mover is still a one-mover.

Sneaze 06-03-2016 01:08 PM

No Connor is pretty much correct on this. As opposed to a normal battle round where things continue at pace even with both 'mon taking a rest, it makes very little sense to assume that the opposing trainer would just sit there and wait to switch.

That said, I've always treated the round immediately following a KO as being a little less rough on exhaustion, as the switch does take a moment and allow for a tiny brek. Obvious exception being people ordering to try and hit a 'mon the moment it comes out.

Zelphon 06-03-2016 01:09 PM

Rounds that end due to a KO end early tho. Not as much time to rest.

Altocharizard55 06-03-2016 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneaze (Post 751143)
No Connor is pretty much correct on this. As opposed to a normal battle round where things continue at pace even with both 'mon taking a rest, it makes very little sense to assume that the opposing trainer would just sit there and wait to switch.

That said, I've always treated the round immediately following a KO as being a little less rough on exhaustion, as the switch does take a moment and allow for a tiny brek. Obvious exception being people ordering to try and hit a 'mon the moment it comes out.

Hence why I left it to discretion. It's highly dependent on circumstance; I don't think there's an easy answer in either direction. I think I may just lean a little more leniently than Connor does in that particular instance. I'm not saying his reffing is entirely wrong or whatnot, I simply would have treated it a bit differently. It's not like exhaustion is in the black and white state of exhausted and not exhausted, like it is often reffed. Always in shades of grey.

Zelphon 06-03-2016 01:18 PM

I take it my spitballed idea for system isn't of interest?

Altocharizard55 06-03-2016 01:27 PM

Generally, if you expend yourself more in the rounds prior, it will be more difficult to quench exhaustion.

And in the one-round-KO move case, you will generally get less of a breather than you may otherwise, depending on attacks used. Depending on energy use prior, that may alleviate a lot or possibly not as much of your exhaustion

It depends how exhausted you are.

To what extent all of this works is ref's discretion

Mercutio 06-03-2016 06:06 PM

It seems to me that the exact opposite of what Jeri thinks is true is the case in practice (tldr Jeri is completely wrong). Am I out of touch? Or do we need to make sure we're clear on what the problem may be?

Aposteriori 06-03-2016 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercutio (Post 751200)
It seems to me that the exact opposite of what Jeri thinks is true is the case. Am I out of touch? Or do we need to make sure we're clear on what the problem may be?

It is opposite to what Jeri is saying. One mover, under all the context described for a one mover, should be a one mover imo.

Mercutio 06-03-2016 06:11 PM

No I'm saying that in my experience literally the whole of Jeri's OP os completely wrong. All of it.

Am I missing something or are we unclear on what the objective is?

Altocharizard55 06-03-2016 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercutio (Post 751205)
No I'm saying that in my experience literally the whole of Jeri's OP os completely wrong. All of it.

Am I missing something or are we unclear on what the objective is?

What about his post is wrong? Could you go into a bit more detail?

Slash 06-03-2016 07:34 PM

Kush thinks exhaustion should be even more crippling and absurdly quick to set in and makes a Pokemon 100% useless for awhile

EDIT: Oh, yeah, also, on the one-mover-that-KOs thing, yeah, that cuts the round shorter, so it's not a breather despite being one move.

Mercutio 06-04-2016 01:20 AM

I'm talking about diagnosis, not prognosis, Slash.

Fairfax 06-04-2016 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercutio (Post 751205)
No I'm saying that in my experience literally the whole of Jeri's OP os completely wrong. All of it.

Am I missing something or are we unclear on what the objective is?

If you're missing something, that's your own fault.

If we're unclear on what the objective is, enlighten us.


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