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Jerichi 05-10-2016 07:53 PM

Signature Moves
Okay so first off I need to apologize - this did not go at all how I expected it to go and I have not had enough time to properly do what I had hoped. Sorry for all the confusion and the wave of rejections; I didn't really intend to go through and cull a whole bunch of sigs from people who had been waiting ages to even get a review. That said, I think it will ultimately be in everyone's best interest as doing so has forced me to reconsider some of my ideas about what is acceptable.

So on to the main event: codified sig rules.

Spoiler: show

1) Type Chart Edits (a.k.a. no more x4)
To drop a weakness one stage, you need to either add another weakness. You cannot pick up or alter immunities, but you can change one of your resistances (e.g. make a Water-type neutral to Ice but resist Dark).

To get:
Neutral > x2 resistance
x2 resistance > One x4 resistance
x2 resistance > One immunity
x2 Weakness > Neutral
x4 Weakness > x2 Weakness

You must:
Give up one resistance or immunity of any type
Add a x2 weakness
Make a x2 weakness x4

If you want to take a x4 to x1, you must pick up at least one other weakness.

2) Type Changes
Type changes must be within some level of reason. You can't have your Pokémon sprout wings to become Flying or die to become a Ghost type. There are no banned type changes (yes, you can have your Dark/Steel/Fairy type changes), but type changes outside of fairly standard changes (things like Water/Bug Masquerain, Bug/Electric Volbeat, pure Rock Rhyhorn etc.) will be fairly heavily scrutinized. If you lose a type via a type change, you cannot keep unlimited energy of that type (familiarity is fine though), and you must lose the benefits granted by that type’s type characteristic. You will also gain the weakness/resistance spread, though you may need to modify it for balance.

Unless the Pokémon will be gaining more or have as many weakness than it previously had, you generally should generally keep at least one weakness from the type you retain (with the exception of dual to mono type changes). Additionally, you should not have fewer than roughly 2 weaknesses as a result of a type change.

You may add moves if you change your type, but you may only add moves of the type you are gaining. If your Pokémon already has a fair number of moves of that type, you will probably not get more than about 1 or 2. If you are changing to a type completely unfamiliar to your Pokémon, you may add up to 6 moves. If you want to add 3 or more moves, you must start dropping moves, though you will get an additional free move in most cases (see Move Set Edits for guidelines on what is acceptable).

If a Pokémon loses a type as a result of a type change, they may retain familiarity with that type (and also the ability to fly or swim, though not as fast or well as before), but cannot retain their associated type characteristics.

Type changes are considered to be one sig and aside from some possible minor biological alterations (e.g. open flames, electrical arcs, improved wingspans, etc) and new moves, you cannot add additional effects or bonuses outside of what the type might normally obtain. You may, in fact, need to hinder some of the naturally obtained bonuses or sacrifice SC bonuses if the change results in a particularly defensively or offensively robust type combination.

If your Pokémon has a Mega Evolution that can change types, you cannot get that change for the base form. Just get the Mega Stone.

3) Blanket Stat Changes (a.k.a. SC-style changes)
You may change the offensive or defensive capabilities of your Pokémon. However, you may not increase stats permanently any more than 20%. If you change their general offenses or defenses (e.g. this Pokémon deals 10% more damage with physical attacks) or to a single elemental type of attack, you must have some sort of drawback, though you can generally get away with a more restricted boosts, like to punches or kicks, without drawback. Boosting your Pokémon's general offense or a type of move beyond 10% will generally require an increase in energy, though the exact increase acceptable will be at the discretion of the reviewer. These types of sigs are considered one sig and cannot be coupled with other additions. You may only increase or decrease by percentages, not using terms.

4) Moveset Alterations
You may pick up a maximum of 6 moves. These moves may not be more than 3 different types. You can pick up a maximum of two moves without dropping any moves, but if you pick up 3 or more moves, you must drop at least two. Outside of the one "free move", you must drop at least one move of roughly equivalent power or effect for every offensive move you add, and drop one move of any kind for each non-damaging move you pick up. If you have two or more moves that are effectively identical (e.g. Protect/Detect/Safeguard, Heal Bell/Refresh, etc.), you must drop both moves for it to be considered one move. If you add a move, your Pokémon must be reasonably able to perform the move for it to work (i.e. have the proper limbs, have similar moves, etc.). If you pick up moves of two or more types that the Pokémon does not naturally have access to, you must give up a type energy. You may not add Transform or Sketch, and Smeargle may not add Sketch slots. Pokémon with extremely limited movesets (such as regional bugs/pupae or Pokémon like Wobuffett) may generally pick up a number of moves without significant drawback, but they must be limited to around 20 at maximum and cannot be more than 6 different types, not counting their STAB.

5) Items and Weapons
With the express exception of Delibird (see Delibird's SC for specifics on what is allowed), Pokémon may not bring in outside items to battle aside from those they naturally hold (Kadabra's spoon, Farfetch'd's leek, Timburr's plank, etc.). Small decorations or articles of clothing are allowed, but cannot have any effect on the battle. Sigs may take advantage of weapon-like or item-like things, but they must be energy constructs that fade after a time.

6) Entry Hazards
Entry hazard can only have a single effect, be it damage, a status, a boost or drop or a similar effect. They must be clearable by conventional means. Generally, they must be at least somewhat inefficient.

7) Type Energy Sigs
Pokémon may become familiar with a single type, allowing them more type energy and the associated perks of type familiarity. You may also gain up to 3 moves of that type, but you must drop at least 3 moves. You cannot have sigs that allow for unlimited type energy or that change an unlimited type energy to which you already have access, save for type changes.

8) NFE sigs
A Pokémon being unable to evolve into its final form will count as a drawback which you can use to justify sigs that might be slightly more powerful than those on a fully-evolved Pokémon. However, if you are to grant it the abilities of a fully-evolved Pokémon, being unable to evolve will not be considered a drawback. Additionally, these sigs will not be able to be more than one sig simultaneously or break any major rules, though depending on the Pokémon, the rules may be bent a little in some cases.

9) Status Resistances
You may sig your Pokémon to be resistant to a single status, and possibly immune. Typically, you must have some level of drawback, especially if you gain an immunity to a status. This counts as a single sig.

10) Healing Moves/Effects
Signature moves that heal damage or energy may not heal more than a Hyper Beam’s worth in total. Moves that heal a lump sum of health with one move must spend at least as much energy as the health they heal. Moves that restore energy must have some inherent drawback, be it immobility, time to execute (either in how long it takes to execute or how long it takes for the energy to be restored, i.e. over time) or something similar, and no move may restore more than a Hyper Beam’s worth of energy at one time or a Hyper Beam and a half over the course of the battle. Healing moves may only be used once per Pokémon per battle, though you may use one energy and one health healing move per battle.

Draining moves can restore either energy or health and draw from the same sources. However, they may not restore more than 3/4 of what they gain. Diminishing returns apply, and moves that restore more than ˝ on their first use must diminish more quickly.

11) New Moves
New moves can be created. The simplest new move, a re-type or edit of an existing move, will generally be passable without much issue. However, certain high power moves, such as Hyper Beam, or moves with unique, guaranteed or potent effects, such as Zap Cannon, may be more difficult to pass. Moves must generally use at least as much energy as they deal damage in most cases. However, moves with unique, guaranteed or potent effects may need to be inefficient (for example, moves guaranteed to deal a certain status should be inefficient). Damaging moves may have up to two effects (e.g. statuses, stat boost/drops, the ability to use more than one type, etc.), but having more than one may require them to be somewhat inefficient. Non-damaging moves should generally not have more than two types of effects, but the number and type of effects will be more flexible, depending on the energy use.

New moves may only have one effect beyond damage, be it lowering a stat, inflicting a status, or some other unique effect, without needing higher energy, though having the ability to have multiple effects must increase the energy use. Additionally, the effects must not stack - that is, there can only be one effect triggered by a single use. Moves with multiple effects may only have 3 possible effects. The more likely an effect is to trigger, the more energy inefficient the move should be. Moves with 10%-15% chance to have a secondary effect do not need to be inefficient, but moves with a 20% chance or higher should require more energy. Damaging moves can be two types which you can freely choose from or be a mix of two types for a mix of damage (of which you may choose the proportions). Moves that alter typecharts (like Freeze-Dry) are allowable, but they must be restricted in some way and cannot exceed solid damage. Additionally, they may only make one change to their effectiveness and the sig reviewer has the right to reject moves that create a significant matchup imbalance (such as a Fire attack being supereffective on Ghosts, which generally do not have tools against a Fire-type). New moves may also be of types your Pokémon does not normally have access to or typeless.

New, undamaging moves are generally a bit more flexible in the number and intensity of effects they can cause, but typically moves cannot cause two effects simultaneously. Energy must be roughly proportional to the effects. Unlike damaging moves, undamaging moves can generally have a high chance of success without a great deal of energy penalty, but potent statuses, such as freeze or burn, or unique effects may naturally command higher energy use, particularly if they are more likely to succeed than not.

12) Boosts and Drops
Boosts and drops must generally function as normal. You have a boosting move that boosts at most two stats one stage or one stat two stages without drawback, though any more boosts must require at least one two drops or one drawback. This same rule applies for any boosts or drops applied to opponents or allies. For each stage of a non-drawback boost or drop applied, you must spend roughly light energy (though if it is as a consequence of a damaging move, you will generally get one stage for free or minor energy, provided it is not guaranteed).

So this is a rough draft and is intentionally kind of sloppy. I am generally not going to full on remove rules but I would like to see some discussion on rules and types of sigs I might have missed that might need to have some guidelines.

Also I think you will probably notice that a wide majority of sigs that have been approved within the past year or so violate these rules in some way. Unfortunately, to make it so new sigs (and older ones, pre-liberalization) are not way outpowered, we are going to have to do a review of current sigs. Now, there are two ways of going about this, and I'd like some feedback from the community on how we want to approach this as well:
  1. We have everyone active post their current squad, with an opportunity for them to fix any sigs they think might be rule-breaking, and review all the sigs in the league.
  2. We have people volunteer their own sigs on an at-will basis, with the threat that any sigs found to violate these rules be immediately and indiscriminately wiped if not fixed.

Both approaches have obvious advantages and disadvantages, though regardless of which we pick, we will be enlisting some help to deal with the backlog this will create and hopefully keep sig approvals more regular than they have been in the recent past.

I know this is a really dramatic change, but for the sake of competitiveness in the league, we really need to assess this core mechanic and make sure that everyone is given a fair shake while still being allowed to make interesting and creative signatures.


Aposteriori 05-10-2016 08:14 PM

Somethings need to be clarified that come to my mind at the moment.

-Freeze-Dry esque sigs that create 3x SE damage need some clarification and/or guidelines.
--Dual type moves, some guidelines would be nice.

-Sigs like Dave's Druddigon need clarification.
Spoiler: show
Special Attack - Hydra Blast (??):
Raising his arm, Gaarg fires a pulse of light blue energy from his palm at the opponent, dealing significant damage while using as much energy. This attack doesn't have a defined type, but has its roots in advanced energy from a civilisation that has faded into myth, and as such is crafted to strike other legendary opponents. Hydra Blast is considered super-effective against Dragon, Fairy and Ghost-type Pokémon, but is not very effective against Electric, Fire, Grass or Water-types, as these types are too grounded in reality to be susceptible to supernatural means. Hydra Blast is usable twice per battle.

-Sigs that gain infinite offtype, are those still banned?

-Sigs that emulate badges, are those allowed?

-Can we swap movepool for resistance drops?

-What about adding moves AND changing them to stab; what are the stipulations on that?

RealMrGame10 05-10-2016 08:19 PM

Well. This changes things.

I appreciate the codification, Jeri. Good work. I have personal issues with how restricting some of this is, but I recognize why it has to happen.

I would like to ask: In terms of "new moves," what about attacks that are strictly non-damaging?


Healing moves, of both health and energy, may only be used once per battle.
I'm probably being a little bit non-remember-y, but was energy lumped into that before? The wording also makes it seem like, say, Recover and Slack Off wouldn't be able to be used in the same match. Or does this apply solely to sigs? I'll be honest, I'm kinda confused :$

Signature trainings that have unique effects might be another category to consider if you're looking for another category of sigs. For example, I've got a Rhyhorn that can make his physical rock attacks into special for some extra energy.

The thread title is a bit of a misnomer, as this doesn't apply solely to signature MOVES, but that's a bit of a digression.

I think that we could go about retroactive sig consultation in a number of different ways. My proposal would be that we utilize both methods. We could have a community-run thread where we post our full squad summary (or at least all our mons with sigs) and we could help each other figure out which ones should probably be brought to attention. Following that, we could bring these selected sigs to a more official thread where the sigs in question are discussed with LOs, figuring out what should be changed and proposing edits in accordance with the new rules. After that wave of things is done, then we could get down to specific cases of things that escaped the community thread. A sig court, in theory, would be useful for this purpose, but I think it should be less about punishment (i.e. wiping out the sig entirely) and more about getting specific cases of out-of-line signatures done. The purpose of the community thread would be to lighten LO workload (save you guys the trouble of looking through our whole squad post) and LOs would be able to contribute. Then the official thread is for LOs bringing the majority of these sigs already in play into line with these rules. The "sig court" (or whatever form that thing would take) would be to get all stragglers. With sig approvals being a little (or a lot) more scrutinizing, I think that after the huge wave of old sigs being dealt with, the workload afterwards shouldn't be too bad.

TheKnightsFury 05-10-2016 08:21 PM

The only one i think is a little rough is the maximum of a 1 stage SC style boost. A permnant swords dance boost or something like that isnt inheritantly broken, your going to be burning extra energy and its avoidable. I think with enough drawback they should be allowed to go to a two stage boost.

Other than that I also feel like we might be limiting creativity a bit but i guess we will have to see how that plays out.

Aposteriori 05-10-2016 08:27 PM

What if we find middle ground: defensive boost get two stages, while offensive boost can only get 1 stage?

6) Entry Hazards
Entry hazard can only have a single effect, be it damage, a status, a boost or drop or a similar effect. They must be clearable by conventional hazard clearing moves and be directly targetable and destroyable by moves of good or greater damage.

If you can destroy them, then whats the point?

Jerichi 05-10-2016 08:29 PM

SC style boost, by definition, do not burn more energy, so 10% is a good hard limit.

And these rules are intended as upper limits, not limits in general. They really aren't that much stricter than what I had applied for years as a sig reviewer so I don't think you're going to see some dramatic drop in sig creativity.

TheKnightsFury 05-10-2016 08:37 PM

Thats true, but like a 10% boost in the long run is barely anything, especially in defense stats. Like a permanent swords dance boost? yeah thats probably a bit rough, but a permanent iron defense? its easy enough just to target there special defense. I feel like 20% should be achievable but with sufficient drawback since you can get a 10% boost without any real drawback.

Jerichi 05-10-2016 08:39 PM

I'll think on that; it is generally better to promote wider defensive play.

Snorby 05-10-2016 08:46 PM

I'll comment on the specifics of new sig policy at a later date. Right now I want to focus on how I think we should go about the Sig Review:

Jeri's post makes it seem like we'll have several people on the job. In light of that, what I propose is that we have members of the community sign up for a given week they will be readily available to work with a Sig Reviewer in regards to their squad. Each Sig Reviewer could take (for example) an average of 3 people a week. Obviously, whoever works with Connor and Dave would take less people that week, and people who work with the likes of Josh and his ~half a dozen sigs could take more. If you miss your appointment, your sigs that are deemed broken will be rejected outright with no opportunity to revise them. You may also choose to not make an appointment with the same consequences. Schedule your appointments to fit your schedule.

During a given week, the Sig Reviewer would make a list of mon on the squads of their reviewees with now-broken sigs. They would then give the list to their reviewees, and help the reviewees balance any sigs that are salvageable, should the reviewee want them to do so. The newly balanced sigs would then be auto approved (or posted in sig submissions if that doesn't float your boat).

If a sig reviewer must go on TA or cannot make an appointment for some other reason, those who were to be reviewed by him will be either given to other reviewers if possible or asked to pick another week that works for them if not. Revised/Rejected Sigs will stay in their original form until all sigs in the league have been reviewed to avoid some people having much, much stronger sigs than their opponents because they decided to go as late in the process as possible.

I think this process would, assuming we have the manpower for it, allow this obviously rocky process to go as smoothly for the battlers as possible, and additionally help people get the hang of writing sigs to the new rules, avoiding more massive purges like the one we had on the last bout of approvals.

Obviously, the issues with this are the number of Reviewers this would require (I'd think at a minimum 3 people would be needed, but I should think that would be doable). These people would also need to be available fairly frequently, which makes things trickier. However, if we DO have the manpower to take care of it, this is by far the best route to go I can think of.

Before it's pointed out, I'm aware this would be a long process- I simply think that's a nonissue. It's gonna be a longish process no matter how we do it, and considering how long things have been broken, I'd say a couple months longer in exchange for the smoothest possible transition is a rather good trade-off.

Jerichi 05-10-2016 08:49 PM

That's an interesting proposal and while I don't know if I'm sold on it logistically, I like the idea.

rotomotorz 05-10-2016 08:59 PM

Is there leeway for these rules when dealing with Pokemon like Unown or what not?

Beautiful Savage 05-10-2016 09:02 PM

For New Attacks, can a move have two type options and an effect if it's inefficient? Or is it either an effect or two type options?

TheKnightsFury 05-10-2016 09:05 PM


Originally Posted by rotomotorz (Post 747932)
Is there leeway for these rules when dealing with Pokemon like Unown or what not?

Building on what roto is saying, i also believe lower usage pokemon and pokemon at lower trainer levels should get stretch than something like a metagross or dragonite. Mostly because there are a lot of pokemon that are really unviable unless they have a decently powerful sig behind them.

RealMrGame10 05-10-2016 09:08 PM


my Emolga sig

individual 20% chance for two statuses (paralyzation and confusion), heavy Flying damage for heavy energy

in short, max efficiency for two effects at 20%

but it's Emolga

Jerichi 05-10-2016 09:17 PM

I am generally willing to flex on that kind of thing, to be honest.

> Is there leeway for these rules when dealing with Pokemon like Unown or what not?

Oh, I forgot about that. Kush was pretty staunchly against it but I generally don't mind them. There should definitely be a limit but I'd be willing to be flexible.

Slash 05-10-2016 09:19 PM

Not sure I'm too fond of all this, to be honest. While rough guidelines may be a good things to encourage, rules I feel impede creativity. And rulesets like this pushes sigs from being art to being science, balanced equations, boxes checked. That's not good. That's something I have had issue with in ASB, especially lately: we're losing the art. Everything's all math and exact percentages and formula and decimals and all that. You take the art out of ASB and we may as well be Smogon ASB. And maybe not this change specifically, but this attitude behind this change, this is what's smothering the art.

Another point: sigs have changed a lot in the past few years since you were on regular duty on them. And I'll agree, they've gotten out of hand. But that does not justify setting back the clock on standards completely, some shifts were good and some were bad and we all need to adapt, on both sides of the process. We submitters need to adapt, yes, but the approver(s) need to accept it's not 2014 anymore, either. There needs to be more give and take, and that's not something I've seen.

My final point is that, as far as compliance goes, we do a hard reset on sigs. All sigs are erased, everyone starts from scratch. That is one of the only ways to ensure compliance across the board, should help minimize potential favouritism (which does happen sometimes), makes it so people who pull a Cele and time warp don't get revived later with non-compliant sigs because they weren't around during the big review, and rather than poring over every sig ever, there'd be some people who would know they do not keep compliance to this specific ruleset and will thus not submit those specific sigs. So you end up having to review fewer sigs from it, no-one gets thrown under buses like we've seen happen before with sigs being called out, and puts all of us, from the newbiest joe newb to the vettiest LO vet, on equal grounds on sigs, instead of having the possibility of some older sig from 6 years ago slipping through the cracks because it was never noticed.

Prize Pokemon shouldn't be wiped, of course, like GM Pokemon or the Torterra I won awhile back I never heard back about. But some may need to be changed or updated for a more modern context. Off the top of my head I seem to remember a Smeargle who got a nice but small pool of moves at the cost of being able to Sketch anything else, and then SC updates ended up making that prize Smeargle sig a liability, not a boon of any kind.

Now, one final final point. This, all this, any of this, when it comes to sig review and fixing the system, will only work if the approver(s) are: A: more approachable when it comes to trainers asking rough ideas on the passability or viability of certain ideas than is precedented, historically speaking; B: approve on a more timely schedule, especially at first, when the flow will be heaviest because of all the suddenly-sigless Pokemon floating around and thus more need; and C: more communication. Approvers can and will sometimes make mistakes, overlook things, and just in general mess up. Like with A, they need to be able to be approachable on that. And rejection without pointing out what's wrong is usually not a great idea, because it gives the submitter no direction to go from.

So, in TL:DR fashion:
- make general rough, flexible guidelines, do not call them rules
- all sides need to adapt to it being 2016
- fairest and simplest solution is to wipe all sigs as of this moment and start fresh
- communication is key
- fuck the mathsmeta

EDIT: Oh, and there's also the issue of manpower. We only have one certified approver right now, and of the four other current LOs, one's the guy who just abdicated the approver position, one's Dave, Charm isn't exactly one with the community and green, and Miror's greener yet. Who exactly do we have step up to the plate?

Jerichi 05-10-2016 09:41 PM

I probably should not have labeled these as rules - my intention for this more than anything is to be a guidebook for sig approvers so that there is some sort of common ground for current/future approvals so that everyone has some sort of expectations of what is acceptable coming into this. That said, I'm never going to be able to capture all possible sigs, but this way there are at least some very clear limits to define the space in which people can work and create instead of just kind of leaving it up to the individual to make judgement calls based on a nebulous idea of experience and their own personal ideas of balance.

I'm not sure how I feel about a complete wipe but it is an option. I'd rather explore others at this moment.

As for manpower, I am going to be taking nominations for new approvers at some point. We've identified a few people independently (relatedly, so not send me 500 recommendations of Sneasel) but we would like more suggestions.

Sneaze 05-10-2016 09:46 PM

So... is there an actual reason behind needing to drop two resistances to drop a weakness as opposed the just one resistance drop it's been for... ever? Like, there's attempting to balance and then there's making you're 'mon actively worse, which only this specific type of sig seems to be doing.

Jerichi 05-10-2016 09:47 PM

Two for one has always been my policy and I still see people doing that.

Sneaze 05-10-2016 09:50 PM

I mean that may be but it doesn't really change my point in that it's the only thing that creates an active hamper to the Pokemon.

TheKnightsFury 05-10-2016 09:50 PM


Originally Posted by Sneaze (Post 747942)
So... is there an actual reason behind needing to drop two resistances to drop a weakness as opposed the just one resistance drop it's been for... ever? Like, there's attempting to balance and then there's making you're 'mon actively worse, which only this specific type of sig seems to be doing.

I think its the best way to do it though, dropping a weakness to by losing a resistance is in no way balanced, although i must say i think it is dependant of the pokemon. Dragonite dropping to 2x ice weakness but being neutral to fighting? no. Ducklett being 2x electric weak by dropping a fighting resistance? yes. As said these are general guidelines, if you think your position is valid to push the limits a bit, then its worth the risk.

Beautiful Savage 05-10-2016 09:50 PM


Originally Posted by Beautiful Savage (Post 747933)
For New Attacks, can a move have two type options and an effect if it's inefficient? Or is it either an effect or two type options?

I think this question got glossed over before.

Jerichi 05-10-2016 09:52 PM

I think they can have both with that being relatively balanced.

Slash 05-10-2016 09:54 PM


Originally Posted by Jerichi (Post 747941)

I'm not sure how I feel about a complete wipe but it is an option. I'd rather explore others at this moment.

Well, I mean, reviewing all the league's sigs is pretty much putting them through the approval process again, but my suggestion leaves room for people to just drop the sigs they don't like anymore/know wouldn't pass, so they wouldn't waste LO time with them. With shifts in the meta (fuck meta) over the past few years, it'd be healthy for a slate wipe, anyway.


Originally Posted by Jerichi (Post 747941)
As for manpower, I am going to be taking nominations for new approvers at some point. We've identified a few people independently (relatedly, so not send me 500 recommendations of Sneasel) but we would like more suggestions.

I will keep this in mind and my eyes open.

Snorby 05-10-2016 09:57 PM

I'm sorry but I don't see how a Steel type dropping Ice and Fairy resists in exchange for not being weak to fighting is a bad trade-off. Likewise, I doubt your Fire-Type is going to cry too much about missing out on its Bug and Steel resists while it's taking neutral damage from Ground.

1 dropped resistance for 1 dropped weakness is, imo, a bit much with these regulations on other types of sigs in mind, because there's absolutely nothing stopping people from dropping 2 resists that they hit the types of for SE Damage and then laughing off their former weakness to a type that fucks them over.

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