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Connor 02-14-2015 07:47 PM

Level Acquisitions: This Time For Real
 
That's right folks.

For some time now, you've all been clamoring for a Levels review. There's been suggestions, there's been gripes, there's been all sorts of discussions on what should be moved and what shouldn't be. Now we're finally going to be doing something about that. Probably.

This thread will primarily be for the discussion and collation of the thoughts of you, our members. While we of course cannot make any sort of a promise to actually implement everything which is said in here, make no mistake that we will be listening and incorporating into our own discussion.

With that said, go wild.

rotomotorz 02-14-2015 07:55 PM

Previous discussion we had today, for the records. Warning: Long as heck

Spoiler: show

>Was going to make a Level Acquisition thread in LO forums
[5:04:30 PM] Connor Swanston: >Jeri says in S/I that's happening soon
[5:04:32 PM] Connor Swanston: Ha
[5:04:35 PM] Drunk Homosexual: be one of them big bears with a bald head and a bushy beard
[5:04:49 PM] Mercutio :: do it, Connor, get it done
[5:04:59 PM] Dave (Konsept): so for about half an hour my beard was longer than my hair
[5:05:00 PM] Mercutio :: we need to swap Kingdra and Gengar round haha
[5:05:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual: "soon"
[5:05:06 PM] Dave (Konsept): when I first cut it super short
[5:05:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): oh god yeah why is Kingdra TL6?
[5:05:39 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's a 4 at best
[5:05:54 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah there are a lot of things which need shifting
[5:06:12 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, neither Fairy or Dragon is a great offensive type so it's defensively decent but
[5:06:13 PM] Dave (Konsept): has no movepool
[5:06:33 PM] Zach Ragan "Deebs": Mawile for TL5
[5:06:39 PM] Mercutio :: Idk I'd be inclined to leave it at 5 purely on the basis of it being a Kingdra
[5:06:44 PM] Dave (Konsept): Lapras for TL5
[5:06:54 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Lapras is probably legit TL5 material
[5:06:55 PM] Mercutio :: Lapras is surely alredy TL5
[5:06:57 PM] Zach Ragan "Deebs": Pls no
[5:06:58 PM] Stealthy: Flygon for TL6
[5:07:04 PM | Edited 5:07:12 PM] Dave (Konsept): I tried, the others argued it down to 4
[5:07:10 PM] Stealthy: Lapras for TL5 for sure
[5:07:17 PM] Mercutio :: man I really hope I wasn't one of the ones arguing for TL4 Lapras lol
[5:07:20 PM] Mercutio :: that is an awful call
[5:07:22 PM] Dave (Konsept): I don't remember
[5:07:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): and now can't check
[5:07:27 PM] Stealthy: Would also argue that Cleffy and Absol and Wiggly could all go for TL5
[5:07:29 PM] Zach Ragan "Deebs": Ugh you fuckers keeping all the good shit to yourselves.
[5:07:34 PM] Stealthy: Aegislash needs like TL3/4
[5:07:39 PM] Stealthy: Mawile to TL3 minimum
[5:07:46 PM] Stealthy: Heatmor to TL3
[5:07:47 PM] Mercutio :: although I do remember having a huge argument with someone about Gyarados going up to TL4 when it was still a TL2 (hilariously)
[5:07:56 PM] Mercutio :: Mawile to TL3 is a good fit
[5:07:59 PM] Mercutio :: it's beatable
[5:08:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): probably me, I pushed for it to be 4
[5:08:03 PM] Stealthy: Gardevoir and Gallade could probably go to TL5
[5:08:11 PM] Mercutio :: nono I wanted it to be 4
[5:08:19 PM] Mercutio :: and someone else was adamant that the 4x made it unusable
[5:08:26 PM] Mercutio :: it might have been SM?
[5:08:47 PM] Mercutio :: Garde-twins should be TL5 but I thought we already did that
[5:08:52 PM] Sprinks Sneaze: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0//////////////////////
[5:08:57 PM] Stealthy: I think Sneazey and I both have mockups with a shitton of changes.
[5:08:57 PM] Dave (Konsept): how many TL5's are there at the moment? I counted all of this once
[5:09:01 PM] Stealthy: But both are for TL7
[5:09:06 PM] Stealthy: Uh like 20 something
[5:09:07 PM] Mercutio :: is this one of the changes we never implemented last time>
[5:09:11 PM] Connor Swanston: Yes
[5:09:27 PM] Connor Swanston: Gardelade going to TL5 was mentioned by pretty much everyone in the last review thread
[5:09:28 PM] Dave (Konsept): you probably don't want more than half a dozen TL6's and maybe 20-30 TL5's
[5:09:32 PM] Connor Swanston: But of course none of them were actually implemented
[5:09:46 PM] Connor Swanston: Presumably due to laziness and then later impending ORAS changes
[5:09:50 PM] Mercutio :: I'd say 6 max for TL6 and maybe 15 max at TL5
[5:09:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): because you gotta let the lower levels have access to some stuff
[5:10:06 PM] Mercutio :: yeah I agree the pressure should always be downwards
[5:10:11 PM] Zach Ragan "Deebs": Yes, thanks for the breadcrumbs.
[5:10:23 PM] Stealthy: There are 21 TL5s
[5:10:31 PM] Stealthy: and 6 TL6s
[5:10:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): that seems like a decent number
[5:10:41 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah especially given a few will drop
[5:10:46 PM] Stealthy: Yeah. A few need to go up but several need dropping
[5:10:47 PM] Mercutio :: yeah
[5:10:50 PM] Stealthy: Haxorus is TL4
[5:11:02 PM] Mercutio :: yeah but Haxorus is not great unless you know what you're doing
[5:11:10 PM] Connor Swanston: Haxorus and Garchomp can both go down
[5:11:23 PM] Stealthy: Aegi can go down
[5:11:29 PM] Mercutio :: Garchomp is probably ok at TL5 if we put Flygon up to TL6 (which we should do)
[5:11:35 PM | Edited 5:11:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): I reckon you probably want to decide a hard cap for TL6's and TL5's before starting. rather than saying "this is really good, should go to 6" more like "these are the top X, they're TL6, these are the next Y, they're 5"
[5:11:35 PM] Mercutio :: because Garchomp's new SC is nutty
[5:11:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): for those two levels anyway
[5:12:08 PM] Stealthy: If I had my way Kingdra leaves TL6 and Gengar and Flygon hop in
[5:12:16 PM] Dave (Konsept): just to make sure no-one gets too trigger happy with "oh this is really good, better bump that up"
[5:12:43 PM] Dave (Konsept): so what's TL6 at the moment?
[5:13:35 PM] Dave (Konsept): because it should be like, Gengar/Dnite/Snorlax/Clefable/Wiggly/Absol, something like that
[5:13:48 PM] Mercutio :: Absol TL6? what's it now?
[5:13:53 PM] Stealthy: Dragonite, Hydreigon, Kingdra, Metagross, Snorlax, Rhyperior
[5:13:56 PM] Dave (Konsept): and to put anything else in TL6 require one of those to go down
[5:13:59 PM] Stealthy: Absol is TL4
[5:14:03 PM] Mercutio :: Hydreigon is probably TL5 now
[5:14:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: TL6 Lapras
[5:14:08 PM] Mercutio :: Absol should be 5
[5:14:11 PM] Mercutio :: Lapras 5/6
[5:14:13 PM] several slightly sad mummies: Kingdra should... probably not be there
[5:14:19 PM] Stealthy: Absol, Cleffy, and Wiggly all should be TL5
[5:14:20 PM] Mercutio :: Kingdra is 4/5
[5:14:27 PM] Mercutio :: agree, Stealthy
[5:14:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): Cleffy is definitely a 6
[5:14:31 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's insane
[5:14:38 PM] Stealthy: That bumps Jiggly/Clefairy to TL3 instead of TL2
[5:14:46 PM] Connor Swanston: Clefable has a few holes though
[5:14:51 PM] Dave (Konsept): seems fine to me, the babies are totally usable
[5:14:52 PM] Mercutio :: well the thing is that how much better than their prevolutions are they really?
[5:15:02 PM] Connor Swanston: Actually fairly significantly
[5:15:12 PM] Connor Swanston: The babies miss out on quite a bit
[5:15:16 PM] Connor Swanston: Notably some of the Gen I crack
[5:15:16 PM] Dave (Konsept): I'm more making the point you want to pick out the best 6 or so pokemon and have them TL6
[5:15:21 PM] Mercutio :: oh no I meant the full to the mid stages]
[5:15:24 PM] Mercutio :: the babies are shite
[5:15:25 PM] Connor Swanston: Oh right
[5:15:30 PM] Connor Swanston: It depends
[5:15:35 PM] Connor Swanston: Wiggly maybe not as much as Clefable
[5:15:39 PM] Mercutio :: yeah this is why baby gym is not a hugely sensible idea
[5:15:42 PM] Stealthy: I agree that we want to make sure that no TL gets over populated, but I don't think we should do it as you're suggesting Concept
[5:15:45 PM] Mercutio :: because most of them are crap
[5:16:04 PM] Stealthy: If there are 10 pokemon that deserve TL6, then TL6 should have ten pokemon
[5:16:07 PM] Connor Swanston: Anyway I've thrown it into the LO forum and something will no doubt get done soon
[5:16:14 PM] Mercutio :: lolololol
[5:16:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah but I think we disagree on what "deserves TL6" means
[5:16:21 PM] Stealthy: Also Sneazey and I want a review of TLs
[5:16:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): in my eyes, "deserves TL6" means "is one of the top six mon"
[5:16:37 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah that is significantly bigger but something I likewise would not hate to see
[5:16:47 PM] Connor Swanston: I don't know, I reckon TL6 could be expanded to 8
[5:16:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): because if you start making TL5 and 6 too big you rob the lower levels of anything fun to play with]
[5:16:53 PM] Mercutio :: yeah that's not what TL6 should mean
[5:17:28 PM] Dave (Konsept): s'all well and good for us to go "yeah x deserves TL6" when it makes diddly difference to us getting it
[5:17:51 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Hey look a TL discussion
[5:17:57 PM] Mercutio :: none of us are actually corrupt though
[5:17:59 PM] Mercutio :: so that's not a problem
[5:18:07 PM] Connor Swanston: I don't think they'll get too overpopulated if we're smart about it (which we probably will be)
[5:18:07 PM] Drunk Homosexual: corruption!
[5:18:19 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, I'd also argue that there's nothing else really on par with Gengar/Snorlax/Dnite/Lapras/Clef/Wiggly
[5:18:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): so putting anything else to the same level as them seems silly
[5:18:30 PM] Connor Swanston: And the way I see it is bluntly if they are that good, then they should be deserving of a high TL
[5:18:37 PM] Mercutio :: as we're saying the trend is downwards. every time we do these level things more Pokémon move down
[5:18:40 PM] Connor Swanston: Rhyperior is excellent
[5:18:43 PM] Stealthy: [5:18 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< like, I'd also argue that there's nothing else really on par with Gengar/Snorlax/Dnite/Lapras/Clef/Wiggly
so putting anything else to the same level as them seems sillyWell, there's Absol and Flygon
[5:18:49 PM] Rotom-Epiu: ^
[5:18:54 PM] Dave (Konsept): none of them are Gengar
[5:18:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): or Dnite
[5:18:56 PM] Mercutio :: Rhyperior is TL5
[5:18:56 PM] Connor Swanston: The only serious boner against Rhyperior is the common weaks
[5:19:09 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Also have we also mentioned that Aegislash really should move down a TL or two?
[5:19:13 PM] Connor Swanston: Yes
[5:19:14 PM] Stealthy: We have
[5:19:16 PM] Connor Swanston: Numerous times, Roto
[5:19:16 PM] Connor Swanston: =P
[5:19:23 PM] Mercutio :: Aegislash is like... the epitome of us assuming that ingame will translate
[5:19:28 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Ha
[5:19:33 PM] Mercutio :: we were definitely wrong about it
[5:19:48 PM] Mercutio :: although the fact that it's incredibly boring, I was right about that
[5:19:49 PM] Dave (Konsept): like TL6 mon basically have a move for every situation
[5:19:58 PM] Connor Swanston: I would definitely put Flygon in that bracket then
[5:20:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): Absol really doesn't, nor does Flygon
[5:20:33 PM] Mercutio :: I think Absol does
[5:20:38 PM] Mercutio :: and Flygon certainly does
[5:20:48 PM] Dave (Konsept): flygon can't do anything if statused, for example iirc
[5:20:48 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Absol lacks a whole lot of support
[5:20:54 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Flygon does for sure
[5:20:55 PM] Mercutio :: yeah but status isn't hugely relevant
[5:21:04 PM] Dave (Konsept): see any time I use Venonat
[5:21:15 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's easy to completely shut Flygon down until it dies
[5:21:18 PM] Mercutio :: support isn't all that relevant either sadly
[5:21:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): just by making sure it's staused every time it goes second
[5:21:30 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It isn't but it is moreso than statuses
[5:21:30 PM] Mercutio :: it should be
[5:21:31 PM] DaveTFG: [5:18 PM] Connor Swanston:

<<< The only serious boner against Rhyperior is the common weaksalso Aggron
[5:21:40 PM] Mercutio :: Aggron is different though
[5:21:44 PM] Rotom-Epiu: And can be used as a factor to influence TL placement
[5:21:45 PM] Mercutio :: it only has three weaknesses
[5:21:55 PM] Mercutio :: Rhyperior is weak to everything
[5:22:01 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Just two of them are huge and dumb
[5:22:07 PM] Mercutio :: I mean where would you put Ttar?
[5:22:17 PM] Spark: I hate being so physically exhausted I just want to sleep
[5:22:23 PM] Spark: Then being unable to sleep
[5:22:27 PM] Mercutio :: its movepool is idiotic but it's only useful against Entei because Entei is shite
[5:22:27 PM] Drunk Homosexual: TL5 at least
[5:22:32 PM] Spark: Because I can't focus on shit right now
[5:22:35 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, to be TL6 something should need to be able to typespam a wide range of things and get out of at least some statuses on its own and not have an arseton of weaknesses and be able to boost and status and not be easily out-bulked
[5:22:47 PM] Dave (Konsept): and probably other things I can't think of
[5:22:51 PM] Mercutio :: Absol has all of those things
[5:22:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, they should have no easily exploitable weakness
[5:22:58 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah there's a reason I made my Tyranitar sig it being pure Rock
[5:23:03 PM] Mercutio :: what you've missed out is slf recovery
[5:23:14 PM] Mercutio :: a lot of stuff does not have self recovery
[5:23:21 PM] Connor Swanston: Flygon does!
[5:23:39 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah but you can entirely shut Flygon down by status abuse
[5:23:47 PM] Dave (Konsept): and it just can't do anything about it
[5:23:47 PM] Mercutio :: I really don't think you can
[5:24:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): name one move it has that recovers it from status
[5:24:19 PM] Dave (Konsept): if you can't do that, you're not TL6 because you can be shut down by anything with confuse ray
[5:24:20 PM] Connor Swanston: Focus Energy rids confusion if we're counting that
[5:24:21 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Flygon can blow away powders, is immune to electrical paralysis, and can normally shut down something before Toxic becomes relevent
[5:24:26 PM] Connor Swanston: Ha
[5:24:36 PM] Rotom-Epiu: And is naturally SE against Fire types, the main burners
[5:25:13 PM] Dave (Konsept): Flygon is a solid 5, but it's no way on a par with Gengar or Dnite or Snorlax
[5:25:15 PM] Drunk Homosexual: He also has significant Bug and Fire, with some flying, to hurt Grasses, other main statusers
[5:25:17 PM] Connor Swanston: Flygon is also technically innately resistant to Confuse Ray
[5:25:26 PM] Drunk Homosexual: lenses?
[5:25:29 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah
[5:25:37 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, I've drawn Daves bug Flygon with a dark type
[5:25:40 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's not great
[5:25:40 PM] Mercutio :: outside of the standard unorthodox uses of moves, it hasn't really got any, but so what? status abuse has never resulted in shutting down a Pokémon every single round (unless your foe is an idiot)
[5:25:46 PM] Mercutio :: Dave sucks
[5:25:48 PM] Dave (Konsept): dude
[5:25:53 PM] DaveTFG: [5:21 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< it only has three weaknessesbut one of them is Fighting
[5:25:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): have you ever seen me battle?
[5:25:56 PM] DaveTFG: everything has Fighting moves
[5:26:01 PM] Mercutio :: yes I know how you battle
[5:26:02 PM] Dave (Konsept): I shut down mon every single round all the time
[5:26:08 PM] Stealthy: Concept you're exceptional
[5:26:10 PM] Stealthy: Congrats
[5:26:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Concept
[5:26:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: You're actually
[5:26:15 PM] Mercutio :: Flygon is easily capable of dealing with that
[5:26:16 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Good
[5:26:27 PM] Mercutio :: the fat that it doesn't have reliable un-statu isn't really a factor
[5:26:30 PM] Emilia: oh speaking of level acquisitions
[5:26:31 PM] Stealthy: We don't rank things based on how easily Cocnept can fuck them sideways
[5:26:34 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's not hard to say "do *status move*" as your second order every time you go second
[5:26:34 PM] Emilia: bouffalant to TL 3 pls
[5:26:43 PM | Edited 5:26:49 PM] Mercutio :: notwithstanding the fact that not much has reliable self un-status
[5:26:45 PM] Emilia: its probably too much for TL 1 pokes really
[5:26:45 PM] Dave (Konsept): and then not break the status when going first
[5:26:55 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Confusion has diminishing effects?
[5:27:05 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Toxic can't stack?
[5:27:10 PM | Edited 5:27:18 PM] DaveTFG: [5:25 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< like, I've drawn Daves bug Flygon with a dark typea) Absol
b) mine wasn't immune to Thunder Wave, which you used
[5:27:11 PM] Mercutio :: like what you're saying isn't invalid but you're seriously overestimating the value of status abuse in this discussion
[5:27:24 PM] Drunk Homosexual: on the lower end
[5:27:34 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Vivillon I think is still TL2
[5:27:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and Vespiquen is TL3 iirc
[5:27:49 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Vivillon deserves it, but so do some other butterflies
[5:27:50 PM] Drunk Homosexual: these might need a bump down one
[5:27:53 PM] Stealthy: Vivillon should be consistent with the other butterflies
[5:28:05 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Personally all the butterflies can stand to move up one
[5:28:10 PM] Drunk Homosexual: no
[5:28:12 PM] several slightly sad mummies: please bring vespiquen down xd
[5:28:18 PM] Emilia: On Ghosts, Aegislash and Gourgeist should be TL3
[5:28:24 PM] Mercutio :: yeah I would not be averse to making basically every final Bug type TL2 lol
[5:28:29 PM | Edited 5:28:42 PM] Dave (Konsept): shrug I just don't think anything deserves TL6 unless there's no match-ups in which it's fucked beyond hope of winning, and there are for Flygon
[5:28:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): imo
[5:28:35 PM] Mercutio :: clearly an exaggeration but
[5:28:35 PM] Spark: Anyone around to rf through a leveler?
[5:28:45 PM] Spark: Want to level some things before UaCC starts
[5:28:47 PM] Rotom-Epiu: yeah I would not be averse to making basically every final Bug type TL2 lolAs opposed to TL1?
[5:28:58 PM] Mercutio :: yes
[5:29:00 PM] Emilia: Aegislash is pretty much utter shite and Gourgeist isn't too good but its definitely TL3 material
[5:29:06 PM] Mercutio :: but also a few higher level ones brought down
[5:29:10 PM] Stealthy: Yeah we've discussed Aegi
[5:29:14 PM] Emilia: I know
[5:29:18 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I think all the regionbugs not Scolipede and Leavanny should be TL1
[5:29:18 PM] Mercutio :: Bug is not a particularly good type and it has bad synergy with most types
[5:29:20 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Gourgeist isn't horrible
[5:29:23 PM] Emilia: I'm restating with my authority as Ghost GL
[5:29:24 PM] Emilia: :P
[5:29:33 PM] Emilia: I never said Gourgeist was horrible
[5:29:33 PM] Rotom-Epiu: But it could stand to be better
[5:29:40 PM] Mercutio :: didn't I 4-0 you in a Ghost match?
[5:29:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: oh, actually
[5:29:42 PM] Mercutio :: :P
[5:29:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: And not TL4
[5:29:46 PM] Emilia: its just not on the same level as Trevenant or Mismagius or Dusclops
[5:29:49 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Ledian and Ariados, too
[5:29:55 PM] Stealthy: Oh right
[5:29:58 PM] Stealthy: Missy can go to TL5
[5:30:04 PM] Emilia: will cut a bitch
[5:30:06 PM] Emilia: :P
[5:30:06 PM] Mercutio :: Missy is pretty great
[5:30:13 PM] Mercutio :: where do we have Dusky?
[5:30:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Oh right
Missy can go to TL5This should probably happen but
[5:30:19 PM] Stealthy: Dusknoir is TL5
[5:30:20 PM] Spark: Dusk is TL5
[5:30:22 PM] Stealthy: Dusclops is TL4
[5:30:24 PM] Emilia: Dusclops is at TL4, Dusknoir is TL5
[5:30:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): is there a list in TL order anywhere?
[5:30:32 PM] Emilia: Kin had one iirc
[5:30:39 PM] Emilia: and Sneezey is making sortable tables for the site
[5:30:40 PM] Mercutio :: I had Kin make one and then did nothing with it
[5:30:43 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah some of the Ghosts should go up because Ghost in general is OP
[5:30:53 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Is our justification "How does this Pokémon fare on its own" or "How can this Pokémon fare against other Pokémon on the same TL"?
[5:30:54 PM] Mercutio :: but yeah sortable tables are the answer (or, you know, copy it in to a spreadsheet)
[5:30:58 PM] Dave (Konsept): Mismagius and Dusknoir are probably 5's with Gengar TL6
[5:31:13 PM] Stealthy: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
[5:31:17 PM] Stealthy: From my Tl7 mockup
[5:31:29 PM] Emilia: Chandelure could also stand to drop to TL3 I think
[5:31:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): Stealthy I love you
[5:31:32 PM] Stealthy: Can sort by Number, Alphabetically, and TL
[5:31:32 PM] several slightly sad mummies: stealthy for best secret member
[5:31:36 PM] Mercutio :: Tl3?
[5:31:38 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Chande is fine at 4
[5:31:43 PM] Mercutio :: I feel like it's ok at 4
[5:31:44 PM] Emilia: Chande is not great
[5:31:48 PM] Emilia: like at all
[5:31:56 PM] Dave (Konsept): right so
[5:31:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Chandy at 4
[5:32:00 PM] Spark: Damn even his gmail is Stealthy
[5:32:08 PM] Dave (Konsept): is Metagross still six with the Steel nerf?
[5:32:14 PM] Stealthy: Debatable
[5:32:15 PM] Emilia: ^
[5:32:26 PM] Stealthy: There was a push last time, but it's become an excellent fairy killer
[5:32:37 PM] Spark: I think it's fine at 6
[5:32:38 PM | Edited 5:32:42 PM] Mercutio :: I think 'gross is probably TL5
[5:32:40 PM] Dave (Konsept): >Rhyperior
[5:32:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): lol 5
[5:32:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I feel like it's 6
[5:32:57 PM] Dave (Konsept): waaaaaay too easily typespammed to death by things with wide movepools
[5:33:10 PM] several slightly sad mummies: why is dedenne TL2
[5:33:11 PM] Spark: >Garchomp at 6
[5:33:12 PM | Edited 5:33:19 PM] Emilia: To be fair Metagross now has match-ups in which its rather boned
[5:33:15 PM] Spark: Que?
[5:33:16 PM] Stealthy: Rhyperior the more I think of it needs 5
[5:33:22 PM] Stealthy: Spark wrong column
[5:33:23 PM] Emilia: namely most Ghost types
[5:33:27 PM] Mercutio :: Metagross is not as nuanced as it ought to be and its offensive variety isn't TL6
[5:33:32 PM | Edited 5:33:38 PM] Dave (Konsept): if the Steel nerf is making Metagross borderline then Rhyperior should go down, it has way more weaknesses than even nerfed 'Gross
[5:33:35 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I wouldn't agree on Garde being TL6
[5:33:45 PM] Stealthy: Wrong column
[5:33:47 PM] Spark: Chomp has Current Level: 5, New Level: 6
[5:33:49 PM] Mercutio :: the Gardes are TL5
[5:33:57 PM] Stealthy: 6 is under a TL7 system
[5:34:04 PM] Emilia: Chomp can probably go to 4
[5:34:08 PM] Stealthy: And it's a rough draft of the TL7 system
[5:34:09 PM] Spark: ik, but Chomp sucks
[5:34:16 PM] Emilia: Chomp doesn't suck
[5:34:22 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I know it's under a TL7 system, but still
[5:34:30 PM] Mercutio :: Chomp is fine at 5 if Flygon is 6
[5:34:38 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Agreed with chomp at 5
[5:34:47 PM] Mercutio :: if Flygon is 5... you can probably argue Chomp at 4
[5:34:54 PM] Stealthy: I think it's less bad as much as it is overshadowed as fuck by Flygon and everybody dislikes Garchomp from comp
[5:34:56 PM] Spark: Even if it doesn't suck it's fairly outclassed and very few people would use it if they could also use Flygon
[5:35:13 PM] Stealthy: Separating it from Flygon is a good call, and Flygon totally wants TL6 so all good
[5:35:18 PM] Dave (Konsept): is Hydreigon really a 6?
[5:35:18 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Garchomp is wrose than Flygon
[5:35:22 PM] Mercutio :: I think Flygon probably needs a bit of a nerf rather than being shifted up to TL6 actually
[5:35:23 PM] Dave (Konsept): I know nothing about it
[5:35:24 PM] Emilia: Hydreigon is not a 6
[5:35:27 PM] Mercutio :: Hydreigon is not a 6
[5:35:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Hydreigon shouldn't be 6
[5:35:46 PM] Mercutio :: it was 5/6 material pre Fairy type and we moved it up
[5:35:48 PM] Spark: Maybe before, but now everything gets Dazzling Gleam
[5:36:00 PM] Mercutio :: it's excellent, but not Dragonite level excellent
[5:36:04 PM] Stealthy: It was on the chopping block last year
[5:36:09 PM] Emilia: Well to be fair dazzling gleam isn't really important as
[5:36:16 PM] Emilia: several pokemon gaining a typing which completely dicks it over
[5:36:30 PM] Spark: Well obviously
[5:36:32 PM] Emilia: Since Hydreigon has very little to hit Fairies
[5:37:11 PM] DaveTFG: silly Spark, things don't get Fairy moves
[5:37:27 PM] Mercutio :: grumbles about Umbreon
[5:37:33 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Mime Jr sure doesn't
[5:37:38 PM] Spark: I thought it was Fairies don't get Fairy moves x_x
[5:37:49 PM] Stealthy: Nothing gets fairy moves
[5:37:56 PM | Edited 5:38:24 PM] Dave (Konsept): so what, Dnite/Gross/Snorlax stay at TL6 and Gengar/Clefable/Wiggly/Flygon/Absol/Lapras move in? are there are in those that seem like they would probably lose to the others? Because that's too many
[5:37:58 PM] Stealthy: Even fairies
[5:38:30 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it's not too many
[5:38:35 PM] Stealthy: It's 9 total. Not terrible at all
[5:38:55 PM] Stealthy: Probably about the upper limit but still.
[5:38:58 PM] Emilia: Absol could probably come down to 5
[5:39:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): realistically speaking if all of those deserve the bump to 6 then a lot of 4 would deserve the bump to 5
[5:39:05 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, a third of it
[5:39:05 PM] Emilia: but otherwise I have no issues
[5:39:07 PM] Drunk Homosexual: he have over 700 Pokémon and we're just going to get more and more and more
[5:39:19 PM] Drunk Homosexual: 9 Pokémon in TL6 should not be too big a deal
[5:39:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: especially since 2/3 are Gen I with crack oozing from every pore
[5:40:15 PM] Dave (Konsept): shrug I just think if we're letting TL6 standards drop that low then TL5 standards drop to encompass like, a third of TL4
[5:40:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): and you run out of FE things for Deebs to have
[5:40:30 PM] Dave (Konsept): :P
[5:40:48 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I don't think we're lowering the standards at all
[5:40:49 PM] Stealthy: I think you could make some arguments on some of the 9, but those are the candidates
[5:40:55 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I think Pokémon have been getting better
[5:41:14 PM] Stealthy: I mean, if you made the top 10 ASB pokemon, it'd be those and then a lot of bitching over the 10th.
[5:41:15 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and moreover, we're actually making an effort to balance this
[5:41:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): [5:40 PM] Drunk Homosexual:

<<< I think Pokémon have been getting betteryeah but this.. isn't really relevant. if everything's getting better, then relatively nothing moves.
[5:42:02 PM] Dave (Konsept): otherwise eventually everything ends up with TL4+ movesets
[5:42:04 PM] Stealthy: But yeah a fair bit of 4 wants 5. Some of 5 wants 4
[5:42:20 PM] Drunk Homosexual: some 4 wants 3 and some 3 wants 4, as well
[5:42:24 PM] Stealthy: Mhmm
[5:42:30 PM] Dave (Konsept): shrug I thought the TL5/6 we decided on last time were pushing too big
[5:42:48 PM] Stealthy: TL2 I think has a fair few oddballs with it too.
[5:42:59 PM] Drunk Homosexual: well, make it too small, there's no point to even having TL 5/6
[5:43:09 PM | Edited 5:43:43 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's easy to say for those of us who will get access to them regardless, but to joe average ASBer who's just been told to wait an extra year for all his favourites that kinda sucks. and if it kinda sucks people will stop playing
[5:43:10 PM] Emilia: Bouffalant comes to mind in TL2
[5:43:59 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, priority one is not balance. priority one is make ASB keep going
[5:44:03 PM] Stealthy: Clearly the answer is the Rangeet method of letting everybody have anything they want
[5:44:06 PM] Emilia: its big and bulky, has the right movepool for what its meant to do, and generally is insane with the combination of uplevel + SCs
[5:44:13 PM] A Cat: ( '-')
[5:44:20 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Clearly the answer is the Rangeet method of letting everybody have anything they wantNo pls
[5:44:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): which means giving the average TL3/4 some cool shit to play with and not confiscating it all to TL5/6
[5:44:30 PM] Drunk Homosexual: yes, Bouffalant could be TL3 we know this
[5:44:38 PM] Rotom-Epiu: We can't let Cibbir finish his Pokedex
[5:44:42 PM] Drunk Homosexual: 9 Pokémon is not "all"
[5:44:46 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I mean what
[5:45:11 PM] Dave (Konsept): no but you were just talking about TL5 getting bigger too because "pokemon in general have been getting better"
[5:45:17 PM] Dave (Konsept): that's a crap trend to start
[5:45:35 PM] Stealthy: Most TL5 discussions we've had right now have been about kicking things out.
[5:45:41 PM] Stealthy: People want Garchomp to move down
[5:45:44 PM] Stealthy: People want Aegi out
[5:45:51 PM] Drunk Homosexual: no I was talking about letting some Pokémon who probably should already have been higher-level anyway, into TL6
[5:45:51 PM] Stealthy: People want Magnezne and Haxorus out
[5:45:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): [5:42 PM] Stealthy:

<<< But yeah a fair bit of 4 wants 5.
[5:46:11 PM] Stealthy: [5:41 PM] Stealthy:

<<< Some of 5 wants 4
[5:46:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): some of a smaller TL will go down compared to a fair bit of a larger TL going up, that's clearly not a big incread in TL5
[5:46:34 PM] A Cat: Altaria for TL3!
[5:46:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): what was I thinking
[5:46:39 PM] Stealthy: And a good chunk of what I'd think to move to 5 we basically considered putting straight to 6 like Lapras and Absol
[5:47:09 PM] Drunk Homosexual: not sure why they were so low in the first place
[5:47:15 PM] Mercutio :: you're probably overthinking this, Concept
[5:47:40 PM] Dave (Konsept): Lapras and Absol specifically are low because other LOs insisted on putting shit like Haxorus in TL5 in there place despite my objections :P
[5:47:52 PM] Mercutio :: why did we put Haxorus at TL5?
[5:47:52 PM] Stealthy: [5:47 PM] Drunk Homosexual:

<<< not sure why they were so low in the first placeThe transition from acquisitions being levelup based to quality based has been very slow
[5:47:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): fuck knows
[5:48:02 PM] Mercutio :: it's not been that slow
[5:48:02 PM] Stealthy: idk it's Haxorus. Looks cool and impressive.
[5:48:03 PM] Rotom-Epiu: sAME REASON YOU PUT aEGI AT 5
[5:48:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Haxorus is not TL5 material
[5:48:13 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Awkward caps strikes again!
[5:48:14 PM] Drunk Homosexual: It's decent
[5:48:25 PM] Mercutio :: a few things were slow, see Bouffalant vs Kingdra, but generally we just made the changes in the first place
[5:48:26 PM] Stealthy: Probably expected Haxorus to get decent tutor help
[5:48:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah Haxorus is lower end of 4
[5:48:29 PM] Emilia: Rotom for TL6
[5:48:30 PM] Emilia: (cat)
[5:48:37 PM | Edited 5:48:41 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Rotom for TL6Hey now
[5:48:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): and only its physical bulk without a slow/fat body stops it from dropping to 3
[5:48:41 PM] DaveTFG: Rotom for TL8
[5:48:44 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Uncalled for
[5:48:45 PM] Drunk Homosexual: but it loses out on a lot of what Dragons like, with only Incinerate for Fire and no flight
[5:48:45 PM] several slightly sad mummies: Missy for TL6
[5:48:49 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and not being aquatic
[5:48:55 PM] Mercutio :: Haxorus is... yeah, TL4 at best
[5:49:05 PM] Emilia: Hax is probably TL4 but I've never used it
[5:49:10 PM] Emilia: so my opinion isn't worth much
[5:49:11 PM] Mercutio :: like, I used it in the gym a bit but meh
[5:49:15 PM] Stealthy: Hax is good in close quarters
[5:49:17 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah if it was slower or physically less imposing it'd go to three in a heartbeat
[5:49:22 PM] Celebelebi: Gyarados for TL2 please
[5:49:26 PM] Stealthy: But that's about it
[5:49:26 PM] Mercutio :: of course, I used it against something that we all know we are going to end up discussing: Serperior
[5:49:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): as it is its fast and can smash smash so it makes 4
[5:49:35 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Give it Contrary
[5:49:39 PM] Mercutio :: Gyarados is 4/5
[5:49:40 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I'd actually make a point for TL3 Gyarados
[5:49:40 PM] Stealthy: Ugh. Serperior.
[5:49:49 PM] Celebelebi: Serperior TL4 for internal consistency!
[5:49:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): I think the internal consistency on starters can piss off
[5:49:53 PM] Stealthy: We're gonna have the internal consistency fight with starters all over again
[5:50:00 PM] Emilia: [5:49 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< I think the internal consistency on starters can piss offthis
[5:50:08 PM] Drunk Homosexual: TL3 Feraligatr
[5:50:12 PM] Mercutio :: yeah I'm starting to go that way
[5:50:12 PM] Stealthy: Like, the starters could be spread from TL3-5
[5:50:15 PM] Mercutio :: yeah
[5:50:22 PM] Emilia: We have a TL5 starter?
[5:50:25 PM] Emilia: Charizard maybe?
[5:50:30 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Charlizard
[5:50:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): ehh not convinced any of them are 5
[5:50:32 PM] Mercutio :: it'll be really annoying because people like having starters on their teams from the get go
[5:50:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Potentially Emboar
[5:50:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I honestly want them internally consistent
[5:50:42 PM] Mercutio :: but like, Inferanape is probably a 5
[5:50:50 PM] Stealthy: I could see arguments for Infernape, Blaziken, and Feraligatr
[5:50:50 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Venusaur maybe
[5:50:51 PM] Drunk Homosexual: lolwut
[5:50:52 PM] Mercutio :: where Serperior is definitely a 3
[5:50:57 PM] Stealthy: Roto shut up
[5:50:58 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I can see for Blaziken
[5:50:58 PM] Emilia: Well to be fair, we do have to consider megas in this
[5:51:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: not the others
[5:51:08 PM] Mercutio :: ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
[5:51:13 PM] Emilia: yes kush we know
[5:51:14 PM] Stealthy: Several of the grasses could go 3
[5:51:16 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, imo TL6 is exceptional pokemon that are never outright outmatched, TL5 is the best representative of each type with a smattering of other awesome things for the stronger types
[5:51:18 PM] Spark: Serperior for TL1
[5:51:24 PM] Emilia: But Mega Char X is pretty fucking incredible
[5:51:26 PM] Mercutio :: fucking Mega bullshit gamefreak!!!!!!!
[5:51:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): then TL3 and 4 are all the fully evolveds not called Beautifly
[5:51:38 PM] Mercutio :: you can't stratify it like that, Concept
[5:51:38 PM] Emilia: =3
[5:51:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: fucking Mega bullshit gamefreak!!!!!!!Don't we all
[5:51:41 PM] Celebelebi: No Starter deserved TL5
[5:51:43 PM] Mercutio :: the types are not equal
[5:51:45 PM] Celebelebi: *deserves
[5:51:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: 1/2/4 is probably the best spread for Starters
[5:51:59 PM] Emilia: The only one I'd argue is Charizard honestly
[5:52:00 PM] Mercutio :: it is
[5:52:05 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Oh yeah while we're at it Mantine should move up to TL8
[5:52:06 PM] Emilia: because its mega is great
[5:52:10 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I mean what
[5:52:12 PM] Mercutio :: but we need to look again at boosting Serpy and Meganium
[5:52:15 PM] Celebelebi: root shut up you’re biased
[5:52:18 PM] Spark: Celebibibibibi
[5:52:19 PM] Celebelebi: Anyways
[5:52:20 PM] Emilia: Serpy and Meganium should go to 3
[5:52:21 PM] Spark: level with me
[5:52:23 PM] Celebelebi: Claydol for TL8?
[5:52:27 PM] Lesbian Poro: Level Aquisitions?
[5:52:28 PM] Emilia: internal consistency be damned
[5:52:29 PM] Rotom-Epiu: root shut up you’re biasedThis is news?
[5:52:29 PM] Mercutio :: and probably some of the other garbage like Typhlosion (not as good as people say it is)
[5:52:30 PM] Dave (Konsept): [5:51 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< the types are not equalwhich is why for the best types (see; ghost) you can probably find two that belong there
[5:52:33 PM] Celebelebi: Spsek you rejected me
[5:52:34 PM] Stealthy: 1/2/4 is a good spread. If we dump consistency then Serp and Meganium and maybe Delphox go to 3
[5:52:37 PM] Celebelebi: Now I have no slots
[5:52:38 PM] Celebelebi: Unless
[5:52:46 PM] Emilia: Greninja honestly isn't great either
[5:52:48 PM] Celebelebi: I ask Lanturn to put our battle on hold
[5:52:48 PM] Mercutio :: oh yeah Delphox is not great
[5:52:49 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I think that's the way, yeah, Kush
[5:52:51 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Delphox will never be good
[5:52:52 PM] Stealthy: The two better fire fighters can go to 5 with argument.
[5:52:53 PM] Spark: I said I just couldn't rf until Saturday ;;
[5:52:54 PM] Celebelebi: ^
[5:52:54 PM] Dave (Konsept): but like, if even Ghost can only make three TL5/6's despite being the best type
[5:52:59 PM] Dave (Konsept): nothing else should be making more than that
[5:53:00 PM] Celebelebi: Sorry Spsek
[5:53:00 PM] Emilia: its like really low TL4
[5:53:02 PM] Dave (Konsept): realistically
[5:53:02 PM] Mercutio :: but we should be boosting its shite SC instead of dropping it down
[5:53:03 PM] Lesbian Poro: Greninja jas some niche things
[5:53:04 PM] Celebelebi: I’ll ask Lanturn
[5:53:12 PM] Drunk Homosexual: yeah
[5:53:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: inb4 Sneezey "I HAD TO REF BRAIXEN AND DELPHOX OFF AND IT WAS SHIT"
[5:53:17 PM] Mercutio :: Greninja similarly can be rescued with SC abuse
[5:53:27 PM] Celebelebi: Greninja is not bad.
[5:53:28 PM] Emilia: Greninja's SC is really its only saving point
[5:53:29 PM] Celebelebi: It’s just not great.
[5:53:36 PM] Stealthy: [5:52 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< but like, if even Ghost can only make three TL5/6's despite being the best typeFour. Golurk/Missy/Dusk/Gengar
[5:53:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Greninja got better with tutors
[5:53:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk?
[5:53:41 PM | Edited 5:53:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): lol
[5:53:44 PM] Dave (Konsept): 4
[5:53:48 PM] Dave (Konsept): mediocre 4
[5:53:49 PM] Emilia: ...no Golurk is 5
[5:53:50 PM] Mercutio :: Dave, how does Greninja compare to the other Water/Darks?
[5:53:52 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Glourk is a 5
[5:53:54 PM] Emilia: Golurk is definitely 5
[5:53:58 PM] Mercutio :: Golurk is very much TL5
[5:54:01 PM] Lesbian Poro: GOlurk is a 5
[5:54:02 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk is big and can fly and that's about it
[5:54:03 PM] Lesbian Poro: So much a 5
[5:54:03 PM] A Cat: [5:49 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< I think the internal consistency on starters can piss offall my this
[5:54:07 PM] Dave (Konsept): but so is Tropius
[5:54:10 PM] Emilia: Golurk stomps over pretty much everything
[5:54:15 PM] Drunk Homosexual: is Froslass enough for TL5?
[5:54:17 PM] Celebelebi: no
[5:54:19 PM] Emilia: no
[5:54:20 PM] Spark: no
[5:54:23 PM] Lesbian Poro: Froslass is a wet paper bag
[5:54:25 PM] Celebelebi: Froslass has a terribad typing
[5:54:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): god no. the only Ice I'd consider TL5/6 is Lapras
[5:54:36 PM] Celebelebi: TL4 at the MAX
[5:54:37 PM] Emilia: its massive, it has a great movepool for smashing things, and now it can go ethereal
[5:54:39 PM] Emilia: its TL5, easily
[5:54:44 PM] Lesbian Poro: Yeah
[5:54:48 PM] Lesbian Poro: Lapras could easily be TL5
[5:54:52 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It's also heavy and has a plethora of physical moves and ethereal potential
[5:55:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk is big and can fly, but that's true of Tropius too
[5:55:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): like
[5:55:02 PM] Emilia: Lapras is TL5/6 like no questions asked we all know this
[5:55:04 PM] Dave (Konsept): neither are good
[5:55:07 PM] Emilia: Tropius doesn't have its movepool
[5:55:12 PM] Emilia: nor does it has ethereal
[5:55:19 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk doesn't have a movepool
[5:55:19 PM] Emilia: that's a shit comparison
[5:55:19 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Lapras is probably TL6, like we said
[5:55:19 PM] Rotom-Epiu: But Golurk also has moves
[5:55:23 PM] Dave (Konsept): I've tried to use the thing
[5:55:27 PM] Mercutio :: that's an awful comparison
[5:55:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): it was shallow as a teaspoon
[5:55:30 PM] Celebelebi: Was it pre Gen V?
[5:55:33 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Also has better typing
[5:55:35 PM] Emilia: No its not lol
[5:55:36 PM] Celebelebi: *Gen V tutors?
[5:55:38 PM] Spark: Was it pre tutors?
[5:55:39 PM] Drunk Homosexual: before or after BW2, cept?
[5:55:43 PM] Mercutio :: Tropius is pretty good though
[5:55:46 PM] Stealthy: Dude. Golurk got major tutor crack.
[5:55:51 PM] Drunk Homosexual: because it got some great shit
[5:55:52 PM] Mercutio :: in typeless it becomes godlike
[5:55:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): after, I only picked up Golurk post my reset I think
[5:56:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual: like Scolipede, or Eel
[5:56:04 PM] Dave (Konsept): it was distinctly mediocre
[5:56:08 PM] MMS: Golurk got as much crack from tutors as Diggersby just got
[5:56:09 PM] Drunk Homosexual: got great tutors
[5:56:09 PM] A Cat: Dunsparce should totz be upped to TL2
[5:56:09 PM | Edited 5:56:17 PM] Lesbian Poro: Tutors made things like Golurk, Eele, and Scolipede great
[5:56:17 PM] Celebelebi: Elektrike?
[5:56:18 PM] Emilia: Eelektross
[5:56:21 PM] Stealthy: Concept maybe it's just your playstyle that doesn't work well with it.
[5:56:24 PM] Lesbian Poro: Can not spell
[5:56:31 PM] Dave (Konsept): I like big smash
[5:56:33 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Man
[5:56:34 PM] Celebelebi: Golurk has everything it needs to excel
[5:56:35 PM] Stealthy: Which is odd because you like things with girth
[5:56:37 PM] Dave (Konsept): I use Haxorus a load
[5:56:39 PM] Dave (Konsept): and find it much better
[5:56:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Why do we have Electrike and Eelectrik
[5:56:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): and I think Haxorus is barely 4
[5:56:50 PM] Rotom-Epiu: THey are almost the exact same name
[5:56:51 PM] Drunk Homosexual: because yes
[5:56:59 PM] Emilia: It's not worse than Haxorus
[5:57:01 PM] Drunk Homosexual: we have Kabuto and Kabutops
[5:57:02 PM] Celebelebi: On 2015-02-14, at 5:56 PM, Rotom-Epiu wrote:
> Why do we have Electrike and Eelectrik

yes
[5:57:03 PM] Emilia: that's silly
[5:57:03 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk is rescued from 3 by bulk and ethereal
[5:57:06 PM] Dave (Konsept): imo
[5:57:13 PM] Celebelebi: Rocket boosters though
[5:57:16 PM] Mercutio :: > Haxorus better than Golurk
[5:57:20 PM] Dave (Konsept): rocket boosters are cool
[5:57:21 PM] Mercutio :: ... no
[5:57:28 PM] Dave (Konsept): but cost solid energy a round to use
[5:57:28 PM] Drunk Homosexual: admittedly, his flight needs improved
[5:57:35 PM] Celebelebi: No it doesnt
[5:57:46 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Yeha no his flight cost way too much energy why
[5:57:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): definitely did when I used it because I had it sigged to be less stupid
[5:57:53 PM] Emilia: Golett admittedly is not great but Golurk is great
[5:57:55 PM] A Cat: Gigalith for TL3!
[5:57:58 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I don't see anything else that flies use so much energy
[5:57:59 PM] Mercutio :: it's too much energy but we should probably make it less effective as well
[5:58:06 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, its rocket boosters are totally unusable because way too much energy
[5:58:13 PM | Edited 5:58:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): you'd exhaust yourself trying to do any damage
[5:58:16 PM] Emilia: it also got phantom force which is a "fuck you" to it has no movement
[5:58:17 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I feel like that's a nerf, Kush
[5:58:38 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I think just decreasing the energy would work great
[5:58:51 PM] Celebelebi: Meh
[5:58:59 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Wait where does it say good energy per round for boosters
[5:59:01 PM] Mercutio :: it would be a net gain in usability
[5:59:12 PM] Celebelebi: I’m not fond of the idea of 3 meter tall 700 pound automatons flying around
[5:59:20 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I'm not sure it would
[5:59:23 PM] Mercutio :: which would be appropriate in this instance
[5:59:40 PM] Emilia: it doesn't say solid energy per round
[5:59:46 PM] Mercutio :: the reason no-one flies with Golurk has literally nothing to do with how effective it is
[5:59:46 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I’m not fond of the idea of 3 meter tall 700 pound automatons flying aroundI'm also not fond of flying manta rays
[5:59:46 PM] Emilia: it just says it burns through energy swiftly
[5:59:48 PM] Drunk Homosexual: is flight with massive energy cost better than poor flight that's not worth it?
[5:59:57 PM] Mercutio :: I didn't say poor flight
[6:00:04 PM] Mercutio :: I said less good flight than currently
[6:00:12 PM] Emilia: to be fair it can fly fast
[6:00:14 PM] Stealthy: The only reason to fly with Golurk is to make Golurk fucking fly
[6:00:16 PM] Dave (Konsept): man
[6:00:29 PM] Stealthy: Like, it doesn't do that much for it
[6:00:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): you'd think googlging "how many fully evolved pokemon are there" would give an answer pretty quick
[6:00:38 PM] Stealthy: But good god is it cool
[6:00:46 PM] Celebelebi: OHKOing Flabebes
[6:00:54 PM] Celebelebi: With Fly + Heavy Slam
[6:00:55 PM] Lesbian Poro: "FLY OVER THE ATTACK AND LAND ON IT, THEN DCEQ"
[6:00:58 PM] Drunk Homosexual: eye twitch
[6:00:59 PM] Mercutio :: Golurk is clearly someone at Gamefreak just really wanting to make it a thing
[6:01:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Golurk is clearly someone at Gamefreak just really wanting to make it a thingGood man, that guy
[6:01:17 PM] Mercutio :: man, I really wish Gamefreak hadn't fucked the Fairy type up
[6:01:19 PM] Drunk Homosexual: maybe they just wanted a golem
[6:01:22 PM] Celebelebi: someone who watched MEGAS XLR
[6:01:23 PM] Emilia: But the thing with Golurk is there isn't a single pokemon bar a ridiculous Water like Lapras who can fight it and not come out maimed or KOed
[6:01:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): ha
[6:01:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): no
[6:01:36 PM] Celebelebi: false
[6:01:37 PM] Mercutio :: nah that's not true, Golurk is beatable
[6:01:41 PM] Celebelebi: I believe that to be false
[6:01:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Golurk is beatable
[6:01:47 PM] Stealthy: Golurk's great but totally beatable.
[6:01:53 PM] Mercutio :: I'm now thinking about it and Im leaning more towards Concept's view - it's 4/5 material
[6:01:56 PM] Rotom-Epiu: As you may or may not see yourself
[6:01:59 PM] Emilia: I know its beatable, that was a slight exaggeration admittedly
[6:02:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual: [6:01 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< man, I really wish Gamefreak hadn't fucked the Fairy type upoh, please do, tell us what the new terrible thing about the type you have clear hatred for
[6:02:05 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk is not appreciably better than all the stuff like Blastoise and Marowak that makes up the bulk of TL4
[6:02:10 PM] Stealthy: Not as beatable as Haxorus of course
[6:02:13 PM] Mercutio :: although I really don't think I've actually fought one - Gollet doesn't really count lol
[6:02:18 PM] Dave (Konsept): I'd say it was worse than those but am apparently in the minority there
[6:02:19 PM] Lesbian Poro: Tbh
[6:02:23 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Golett isn't great
[6:02:24 PM] Emilia: Yeah Golett does not
[6:02:33 PM] Lesbian Poro: I don't like the idea of TL4 GOlurk mainly because of Uplevel Golurk at TL3
[6:02:42 PM] Stealthy: Golett makes a nice low level ghost. That's about it.
[6:02:48 PM] Mercutio :: I think I once reffed someone try and use Golett against some low level Water type and expect to run rampant
[6:02:56 PM] A Cat: Fairy as a type, with the exception of it being supereffective against dark, was very well executed. The amount of moves that where given to it however...
[6:03:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): I think there are definitely things at 3 that can beat Golurk comfortably
[6:03:17 PM] Dave (Konsept): bulk is a pain but it's not game over
[6:03:23 PM] Mercutio :: yeah but there are things that can beat Dragonite comfortably in TL1/2
[6:03:25 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I feel more like SE on fighting was less fitting
[6:03:28 PM] Emilia: yeah but its massive
[6:03:35 PM] Emilia: its not just "bulk" its huge
[6:03:44 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:03 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< yeah but there are things that can beat Dragonite comfortably in TL1/2I was responding to Lost worrying about uplevel Golurk at TL3
[6:03:51 PM] Mercutio :: yeah ASB seems to have retracted from the "ahhhhhh bulk = winning" mindset a little
[6:03:51 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, I don't think it'd be a problem
[6:04:05 PM] A Cat: [6:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual:

<<< I feel more like SE on fighting was less fittingMeh, fighting needed the nerf in-game. Dark really didn't
[6:04:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: [6:04 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< yeah ASB seems to have retracted from the "ahhhhhh bulk = winning" mindset a littlebout time
[6:04:15 PM] Mercutio :: mm
[6:04:19 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Size isn't deciding but it can easily play a role
[6:04:26 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Dark and Fighting had the same amount of weaknesses
[6:04:35 PM] Emilia: a lot of that was people not knowing how to beat bulk
[6:04:50 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Golurk also has a lot of moves
[6:04:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): jesus why will google not give me an answer to how many fully evolved pokemon there are
[6:04:54 PM] Mercutio :: it's always been weird to me that this is animé style battling and yet every single ref nerfs the exact play style that Ash uses all the time
[6:04:54 PM] A Cat: Yeah but like, everyone was sweeping with fighting shit
[6:05:02 PM] Mercutio :: i.e. yes you're small and shit but you can runnnnnnnnnnnnn
[6:05:11 PM] Emilia: because we've been told to?
[6:05:13 PM] A Cat: Fighting became more valuable in offensive settings then just about any other type
[6:05:21 PM] DaveTFG: >go away for 15 minutes
>200 messages
[6:05:22 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I thought Ash's playstyle is plot?
[6:05:23 PM] DaveTFG: guys pls
[6:05:29 PM] Rotom-Epiu: every single ref nerfs the exact play style that Ash uses all the timeWait that's a bad thing?
[6:05:31 PM] Emilia: we were arguing about golurk
[6:05:41 PM] DaveTFG: also Kush
[6:05:42 PM] DaveTFG: http://jl8comic.tumblr.com/post/7663...-to-share-each
[6:05:53 PM] Mercutio :: oh hey btw let's raise Klinklang to TL6 because it's a Stell type Regirock
[6:06:03 PM] Emilia: Aye!
[6:06:05 PM] Stealthy: [6:04 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< i.e. yes you're small and shit but you can runnnnnnnnnnnnnDidn't you know? Pokemon are all expert Chris Kyle level snipers with their accuracy
[6:06:27 PM] Drunk Homosexual: what if we're doing Mozz Rules?
[6:06:27 PM] Emilia: ...klinklang is TL3 right?
[6:06:31 PM] Rotom-Epiu: yes
[6:06:34 PM] Emilia: okay good
[6:06:34 PM] A Cat: Man like, the less then great legendaries should cost less to go after.
[6:06:41 PM] Emilia: had the weirdest thought it was 4
[6:06:44 PM] Mercutio :: Mozz rules: good idea, hilariously poor execution
[6:06:53 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Do people not pay attention to my TL2 Klinklang?
[6:07:02 PM] Drunk Homosexual: ... it was a good idea?
[6:07:07 PM] Dave (Konsept): so there are 322 fully evolved non legends, at a count
[6:07:08 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Yes
[6:07:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I don't regret it
[6:07:14 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Zorules seemed a better idea
[6:07:17 PM] A Cat: Gigalith for TL3!
[6:07:28 PM] Drunk Homosexual: then again
[6:07:33 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Zorules bestrules
[6:07:34 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Gigalith should stay TL4
[6:07:36 PM] Mercutio :: now that we generally give more type energy to stuff than when Mozz rules were a thing, we should probably more a little towards letting idle dodges happen more if you're smaller
[6:07:43 PM] Emilia: meh, gigalith is not at all great
[6:08:00 PM] A Cat: [6:07 PM] Rotom-Epiu:

<<< Gigalith should stay TL4but it has a shitty movepool and is a turret with a bad defensive typing.
[6:08:05 PM] Mercutio :: like, Pikachu vs Electivire should very much involve Pikachu running around and nipping at 'vire's heels
[6:08:08 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I'm nice about idle dodges for smaller Pokémon, but based on comparison
[6:08:17 PM] Mercutio :: pure Rock is perfectly good
[6:08:20 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Gigalith should probably be TL3
[6:08:25 PM] Emilia: ^
[6:08:29 PM] Mercutio :: it's not an awful defensive typing and is a good offence
[6:08:31 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Joltik can dodge a lot of boldore's things but not another Joltiks
[6:08:35 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Kush, stop lying
[6:08:39 PM] Dave (Konsept): rock is pretty bad, defensively
[6:08:40 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it's terrible defensively
[6:08:42 PM] Mercutio :: I think I'm biased because I really like Gigalith
[6:08:42 PM] A Cat: yay, people with respectable opinoins are agreeing with me!
[6:08:44 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Rock is an awful defensive type
[6:08:45 PM] Emilia: Fighting / Ground / Water / Grass weaknesses isn't awful?
[6:08:47 PM] Mercutio :: it's pretty bad
[6:08:54 PM] Mercutio :: but it's not in the bottom tier
[6:08:55 PM] Drunk Homosexual: also Steel
[6:08:57 PM] Emilia: also steel but lel steel
[6:09:00 PM] Drunk Homosexual: lolSteel
[6:09:01 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Grass is also an awful defensive type
[6:09:07 PM] Dave (Konsept): I mean, Ground/Fighting/Water/Grass/Steel
[6:09:11 PM | Edited 6:09:17 PM] Mercutio :: better than Flying, Bug, Ice, arguably Fire, Grass
[6:09:17 PM] Dave (Konsept): at least three of those suck to have as weaknesses
[6:09:17 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Yet when you put the two together you magically get a good defensive Pokemon
[6:09:28 PM] Emilia: *decent
[6:09:29 PM] Mercutio :: and certainly a better offensive type than several of those
[6:09:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah Grass/Rock is weirdly good, I hope they introduce one I don't hate
[6:09:43 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Sudowoodo
[6:09:44 PM] Rotom-Epiu: idk Cradily is pretty good defensively
[6:09:50 PM] DaveTFG: [6:08 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< like, Pikachu vs Electivire should very much involve Pikachu running around and nipping at 'vire's heelsi remember reading a pretty good fanfic back in the DP era that predicted Ash vs Paul in the finals of the Sinnoh League - Electivire grabbed Pikachu and Pika ended up biting a chunk out of its hand
[6:09:51 PM] Mercutio :: Cradily is weirdly good yes
[6:09:53 PM] Lesbian Poro: Cradily~
[6:10:02 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Cradily has Brine now, too
[6:10:05 PM] Drunk Homosexual: weirdly
[6:10:08 PM] A Cat: [6:09 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< yeah Grass/Rock is weirdly good, I hope they introduce one I don't hatesig a Grass/Rock Mountain Gogoat
[6:10:13 PM] Mercutio :: it does? hah. that's good
[6:10:13 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Steel is rare, Ice can be STABed, fighting is the only real issue
[6:10:25 PM] Lesbian Poro: Bug
[6:10:28 PM] Emilia: Cradily isn't easy to pick up
[6:10:32 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Rock resists bug?
[6:10:35 PM] Lesbian Poro: No
[6:10:36 PM] Drunk Homosexual: no
[6:10:38 PM] Lesbian Poro: lawl
[6:10:41 PM] Emilia: (Also the only reason I'm not suggesting Spiritomb to TL3)
[6:10:43 PM] A Cat: Scizor for TL3!
[6:10:53 PM] Rotom-Epiu: really?
[6:10:53 PM] A Cat: Spiritomb for TL5!
[6:11:00 PM] Lesbian Poro: You know how many Tyranitars I've OHKO'd with Volcarona in Gen 5?
[6:11:03 PM] Lesbian Poro: A lot
[6:11:04 PM] A Cat: (the latter is a joke)
[6:11:12 PM] Drunk Homosexual: you have extra Ground to deal with Steels, as well, and Rock is SE on Ice and Bug
[6:11:18 PM] Emilia: Spiritomb is better than people give it credit for, but its also not easy for newbs to pick up and use effectively
[6:11:20 PM] Lesbian Poro: Because Quiver Dance is stupid
[6:11:30 PM] Drunk Homosexual: TL1 Spiritomb
[6:11:37 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I must learn the Spiritomb
[6:11:56 PM] A Cat: Sableye for TL5!
[6:12:13 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Rock is also mean for not resisting itself
[6:12:34 PM] Dave (Konsept): rock not resisting itself made me sad
[6:12:34 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Sableye's good but probably TL4
[6:12:45 PM] Dave (Konsept): when I was Mozz' GT and the only Rock I had was Aerodactyl
[6:12:57 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it hurts Aerodactyl, Armaldo, Magcargo, and others
[6:13:11 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Magcargo is hurt already
[6:13:13 PM] Dave (Konsept): is Sableye really TL4?
[6:13:18 PM] A Cat: Stantler for TL3!
[6:13:21 PM] Emilia: Sableye is small
[6:13:21 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I feel like it is, yes
[6:13:24 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Sableye is...eh
[6:13:33 PM] Emilia: I dunno to be honest I think the mega might push it over
[6:13:34 PM] A Cat: No really, Stantler is a newbie crushing machine...make it TL3
[6:13:42 PM] Dave (Konsept): weep for poor Magcargo. such a great movepool, such a terrible weakness spread
[6:13:43 PM] Emilia: but I lack of data woooo
[6:13:45 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Stantler exists?
[6:14:03 PM] A Cat: It does! MMS and I have one (I added it first tho)
[6:14:05 PM] Emilia: There are an odd number of TL2 quadruped normals
[6:14:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): s'because the quadruped normal are usually bad
[6:14:21 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Man I'm so proud of my Magcargo
[6:14:29 PM | Edited 6:14:35 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It beat a Primal Groundon and Primal Kyogre
[6:14:50 PM] Mercutio :: for those interested in continuing the type chart discussion, http://forums.upnetwork.net/showthre...629#post668629
[6:15:06 PM] Mercutio :: Magcargo... man, I wish it wasn't made of weaknesses
[6:15:11 PM] Mercutio :: it's so awesome
[6:15:22 PM] A Cat: I don't know, how many quadruped pure Normal types can we say are honestly bad?
[6:15:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): I feel the same way man. Aurorus too
[6:15:50 PM] Drunk Homosexual: It's got some great stuff, reliable recovery, only 2 weaknesses, an immunity, can Mean Look, it's a Ghost with a physical and Fighting movepool, and, unlike Umbreon, actually gets Dazzling Gleam
[6:15:53 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Sableye, I mean
[6:15:55 PM] Emilia: They aren't great, but for TL1 uplevels they tend to be completely fucking fantastic
[6:16:18 PM] Mercutio :: Sableye is pretty good
[6:16:24 PM] Drunk Homosexual: poor Umbreon
[6:16:25 PM] Mercutio :: > quadrupedal Normals
[6:16:29 PM] A Cat: It even gets Octazooka!
[6:16:34 PM] Mercutio :: I really think you overstate their utility
[6:16:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: but yeah I think Sableye is TL4
[6:16:45 PM] Mercutio :: we should boost them up up
[6:16:58 PM] Emilia: I'm not really Kush
[6:17:00 PM] Lesbian Poro: I don't want my Sableye stirpped from me QQ
[6:17:07 PM] Emilia: I know how good they are when compared to everyone else
[6:17:15 PM] Emilia: I also know how good they are compared to TL1
[6:17:18 PM] A Cat: Clearly, all quad mon should be given a speed boost
[6:17:20 PM] Mercutio :: yeah with one-stagers we should always be wary of making them too high
[6:17:21 PM] Emilia: its a big difference
[6:17:33 PM] Emilia: meh TL3 and be done with it really imo
[6:17:45 PM] Mercutio :: Sabeleye is probably fine at TL3, same as Mawile
[6:17:48 PM] Emilia: Tauros is TL4 right?
[6:17:56 PM] Lesbian Poro: Tauros is 3
[6:18:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): and can stay there
[6:18:07 PM] Mercutio :: it should be 4
[6:18:09 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Tauros is fine TL3
[6:18:16 PM] Emilia: definitely would have guessed four
[6:18:17 PM] Mercutio :: Bouffy... probably is a fine TL3
[6:18:32 PM] A Cat: I don't think you guys understand the raw power of the hooves!
[6:18:36 PM | Edited 6:18:52 PM] Dave (Konsept): Tauros should be one above Bouffalant, but not sure if that means 2/3 or 3/4
[6:18:55 PM] Emilia: I can see bouffalant being low TL3 and tauros being high TL3 really
[6:19:00 PM] Mercutio :: Tauros is arguably only a little bit worse than Absol
[6:19:04 PM] several slightly sad mummies: guys. dedenne is TL2.
[6:19:06 PM] Emilia: Bouffalant is still good really
[6:19:06 PM] Mercutio :: it has less sophistication
[6:19:07 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Maw and Tauros should both get 4, Bouffy should get 3
[6:19:07 PM] Jeri Chee: oh god
[6:19:09 PM] Mercutio :: but a better movepool
[6:19:10 PM] Jeri Chee: It's begun
[6:19:11 PM | Edited 6:19:18 PM] several slightly sad mummies: can we remedy this
[6:19:15 PM] Lesbian Poro: Shh Jeri
[6:19:15 PM] Mercutio :: Dedenne... is not good
[6:19:17 PM] Lesbian Poro: It's oaky
[6:19:20 PM | Edited 6:19:23 PM] Emilia: hey jer
[6:19:24 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It's begunIt's been going
[6:19:28 PM] Jeri Chee: Dedenne's only good thing is its typing
[6:19:32 PM] Jeri Chee: Literally nothing else about it is good
[6:19:33 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Dedenne cant even KO a goodra
[6:19:36 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Nuzzle
[6:19:39 PM] several slightly sad mummies: which is why we should bring it to
[6:19:39 PM] Emilia: dedenne for TL -5
[6:19:42 PM] several slightly sad mummies: TL1
[6:19:45 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Tl0
[6:19:50 PM] Mercutio :: yeah. I remember Concept and I both thinking we wanted to get one and then thinking oh wait we'll never use this it's terrible
[6:19:50 PM] Drunk Homosexual: is Dedenne not TL1 yet?
[6:19:57 PM] Emilia: its TL2 apparently
[6:20:00 PM] Rotom-Epiu: But its ok
[6:20:00 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Dedenne and Carbink need to be TL1
[6:20:06 PM] MMS: out of curiosity, has the notion of seperate level aquisitions for mega-evolutions been considered? There's no doubt that megas make mons that are perfectly fine in TLX into mons that need to go to TLY. I'm sure it has been thought about and shot down for good reason, but I've never hear anything about it, so :P
[6:20:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Dedenne get Parabola Charge
[6:20:14 PM] Jeri Chee: To be fair Carbink's SC is kinda good
[6:20:20 PM] Emilia: its also carbink
[6:20:24 PM] Emilia: it has a movepool of nothing
[6:20:28 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Carbink can go to two
[6:20:28 PM] Jeri Chee: Megas will influence leveling decisions.
[6:20:35 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:20 PM] MMS:

<<< out of curiosity, has the notion of seperate level aquisitions for mega-evolutions been considered? There's no doubt that megas make mons that are perfectly fine in TLX into mons that need to go to TLY. I'm sure it has been thought about and shot down for good reason, but I've never hear anything about it, so :Pso originally the way I wrote it, mega forms counted as uplevels
[6:20:37 PM] Drunk Homosexual: we do that to most terrible Pokémon, Jeri
[6:20:42 PM] Drunk Homosexual: except Beautifly
[6:20:43 PM] Mercutio :: Carbink is really good at beams guys
[6:20:49 PM] Mercutio :: let's not forget the beams
[6:20:49 PM] Dave (Konsept): which essentially made the mega evo's one TL higher than their base forms
[6:20:51 PM] Jeri Chee: But we're not going to force people to have a certain level to use Megas.
[6:20:54 PM] Lesbian Poro: What beam moves does it get?
[6:20:59 PM] Emilia: none
[6:21:00 PM] Jeri Chee: None!
[6:21:00 PM] Dave (Konsept): then the other LOs went and changed it for some reason :P
[6:21:02 PM] Drunk Homosexual: that's the point
[6:21:12 PM] Mercutio :: that's the joke
[6:21:19 PM] Jeri Chee: We wanted people to be able to use Megas, Concept.
[6:21:26 PM] Emilia: I dunno see the only megas I feel really should be weighed in are the ones who change typings
[6:21:32 PM] Jeri Chee: But then the automatic disobedience thing on levelup Megas became an issue
[6:21:33 PM] Mercutio :: Megas should be overly accessible
[6:21:33 PM] Emilia: like if you are using Aggron, you are going to use its mega
[6:21:37 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Why is that a bad thing cept?
[6:21:41 PM] Emilia: like 99 times out of 100
[6:21:55 PM] Emilia: because rock/steel is awful
[6:21:56 PM] Rotom-Epiu: But then
[6:22:03 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Pure Steel Aggrons
[6:22:08 PM] Jeri Chee: The only Pokémon I forsee changing due to Mega is Mawile, Pinsir and maybe something like Aggron.
[6:22:15 PM] Lesbian Poro: >Pinsir
[6:22:16 PM] Emilia: ...pinsir?
[6:22:16 PM] Lesbian Poro: Wut
[6:22:19 PM] Drunk Homosexual: wut
[6:22:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): shrug I felt having megas as uplevels meant we didn't have to let the existence of mega forms drag the normal forms up in TL out of peoples hands
[6:22:26 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Pinsir isn't bad!\
[6:22:30 PM] Dave (Konsept): also it let me abuse the Bowl badge on mega's too
[6:22:32 PM] Mercutio :: Pinsir is not bad at all
[6:22:33 PM] Drunk Homosexual: you mean Pinsir going down?
[6:22:37 PM] Jeri Chee: Yeah Pinsir's pretty good
[6:22:40 PM] Mercutio :: what level is Pinsir now?
[6:22:43 PM] Emilia: TL2
[6:22:45 PM] Drunk Homosexual: 2 I think
[6:22:45 PM] Jeri Chee: idk
[6:22:47 PM] Lesbian Poro: Yes but Bug/Flying a a horrid type
[6:22:54 PM] Jeri Chee: Mawile is definitely rising
[6:22:54 PM] Mercutio :: yeah I feel like 2 is ok but Mega Pinsir... meh
[6:22:55 PM] Drunk Homosexual: yeah, speaking of
[6:22:56 PM] Jeri Chee: For various reasons.
[6:22:57 PM] MMS: I mean, stuff like Charizard and Sableye have been specifically mentioned here as toeing the line because of their mega, which is why I rbought it up
[6:22:59 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Yes but it's good
[6:23:05 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Vespiquen. TL2 please?
[6:23:05 PM] Emilia: To be fair
[6:23:07 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Bug Flying can be as bad as it wants
[6:23:08 PM] Emilia: Char Y is perfectly fine
[6:23:12 PM] Mercutio :: guys we've had the internal consistency debate about starters... can we talk about eeveelutions?
[6:23:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Mega Pinsir is still good
[6:23:16 PM] Emilia: Char X is a whole different beast
[6:23:17 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and Vivillon TL1
[6:23:23 PM] Jeri Chee: See Kush
[6:23:23 PM] Mercutio :: jokes aside, Umbreon is crap and Flareon isn't
[6:23:28 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:23 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< guys we've had the internal consistency debate about starters... can we talk about eeveelutions?they all suck except Flareon
[6:23:29 PM] Mercutio :: why are they the same level
[6:23:34 PM] Jeri Chee: They're all pretty bad in the scheme of things.
[6:23:35 PM] Emilia: Which is?
[6:23:39 PM] Emilia: TL3?
[6:23:39 PM] Jeri Chee: And TL3 isn't exactly high.
[6:23:43 PM] Dave (Konsept): Flareon is an OK fire!
[6:23:48 PM] Drunk Homosexual: internal consistency
[6:23:51 PM] Jeri Chee: If one goes down they all go down
[6:23:52 PM] Mercutio :: I'd argue that the Gen I guys are pretty good
[6:23:54 PM] Emilia: You can have them all except Flareon be TL2
[6:23:57 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Guys Flareon gets Flare Blitz
[6:23:59 PM] Emilia: and it would probably be okay
[6:24:02 PM] Rotom-Epiu: gasp horror
[6:24:02 PM] Mercutio :: like Flareon is on par with TL4 Fires now
[6:24:03 PM] Jeri Chee: None of them really outclass anything at any level beyond 1.
[6:24:10 PM] Jeri Chee: ???
[6:24:17 PM] Mercutio :: Idk you're the GL maybe I'm wrong
[6:24:21 PM] Jeri Chee: Flareon is nowhere near as good as Magmar
[6:24:22 PM] Jeri Chee: Like
[6:24:23 PM] Emilia: also to be fair giving newbies their eeveelutions is a good thing
[6:24:23 PM] Jeri Chee: Not even close
[6:24:34 PM] Mercutio :: it's worse
[6:24:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): oh man
[6:24:37 PM] Mercutio :: maybe
[6:24:42 PM] A Cat: [6:23 PM] Drunk Homosexual:

<<< internal consistencymay go die in a puddle of its own urin
[6:24:43 PM] Mercutio :: I guess?
[6:24:48 PM] Jeri Chee: Unquestionably xd
[6:24:49 PM] Dave (Konsept): can you imagine how many eeveelution uplevels would happen if they were TL2?
[6:24:54 PM] Jeri Chee: As someone who has used a lot of both
[6:24:58 PM] Jeri Chee: I can tell you that for sure
[6:25:01 PM | Edited 6:25:10 PM] Emilia: it means we can finally not have to worry about explaining why eevee is utter shite
[6:25:01 PM] Mercutio :: ok
[6:25:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I'd agree if we change one, we should change them all
[6:25:06 PM] Rotom-Epiu: can you imagine how many eeveelution uplevels would happen if they were TL2?Oh goodness no
[6:25:25 PM] Dave (Konsept): I think it'd be pretty cool
[6:25:28 PM] Mercutio :: guys lets just make Eevee TL2 and be done with it, then we don't have to tell kids not to pick one up
[6:25:35 PM] Emilia: TL3 Eevee
[6:25:37 PM] Emilia: just to make sure
[6:25:41 PM] Mercutio :: TL3vee?
[6:25:42 PM] Dave (Konsept): because jokes aside, almost no-one uses the eeveelutions because they're outclassed at 3
[6:25:50 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Just bane Eevee from the league
[6:25:52 PM] Drunk Homosexual: wow, that's dickish
[6:25:57 PM] Emilia: it was also a joke
[6:26:00 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I mean, I should expect that from Kush
[6:26:00 PM] Rotom-Epiu: You can only pick up Eeveelutions
[6:26:01 PM] Drunk Homosexual: but
[6:26:13 PM] Jeri Chee: TL2 Eeveelutions would be fine
[6:26:19 PM] Emilia: Flareon is really good at TL2, and it honestly makes sense that its the only outlier
[6:26:22 PM] Jeri Chee: They're pretty on par with the average TL2 acquisition
[6:26:23 PM] Dave (Konsept): inb4 equiall 2 Jeri's gym
[6:26:30 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Espeon may also stand to move up
[6:26:34 PM] Emilia: Espeon is bad
[6:26:34 PM] Drunk Homosexual: you mean down
[6:26:42 PM] Jeri Chee: Espeon is okay
[6:26:43 PM] Mercutio :: hmm maybe I'm overstating how good the eeveelutions are I always think that the Gen I ones are some of the better ones of their type (the rest are not)
[6:26:52 PM] Jeri Chee: Vaporeon is probably the best
[6:27:00 PM] Jeri Chee: But it's average as a Water.
[6:27:02 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It's better only because it gets cute Psychic tools and recovery
[6:27:04 PM] Emilia: Vappy is pretty good but all in all its an average water
[6:27:16 PM] Mercutio :: I'll cede to the majority opinion
[6:27:19 PM] Emilia: yeah and so does kadabra
[6:27:24 PM] Emilia: Kadabra > Espeon
[6:27:24 PM] Jeri Chee: Jolteon is on par with other quad electrics
[6:27:28 PM] Mercutio :: although if Umbreon is TL2 then Absol is TL1
[6:27:33 PM] Jeri Chee: Flareon is a middling Fire type
[6:27:34 PM] Emilia: ha
[6:27:37 PM] Mercutio :: Jolteon is surely better than Luxray
[6:27:38 PM] Jeri Chee: Espeon is an okay Psychic
[6:27:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Luxray is better
[6:27:44 PM] Jeri Chee: Umbreon sucks
[6:27:51 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Did we give Luxray X-ray vision yet?
[6:27:52 PM] Jeri Chee: Leafeon is a mediocre grass.
[6:27:56 PM] Emilia: Sylveon is probably worse than Umbreon
[6:27:57 PM] Emilia: honestly
[6:27:58 PM] Mercutio :: we did give it X ray vision
[6:27:59 PM] Jeri Chee: Glaceon is unsavable
[6:28:00 PM] Drunk Homosexual: One thing Espeon and Vaporeon do have in theor favour is BP
[6:28:03 PM] Mercutio :: it is a total wastw of time as predicted
[6:28:04 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:27 PM] Jeri Chee:

<<< Leafeon is a mediocre grass.ouch
[6:28:12 PM] Jeri Chee: Sylveon is pretty poor
[6:28:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Glaceon ;~;
[6:28:18 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Sylveon is awesome and I will cut you
[6:28:19 PM] Mercutio :: Glaceon si indeed unsavable
[6:28:23 PM] Jeri Chee: Glaceon is about as good as Snorunt
[6:28:23 PM] Drunk Homosexual: not you, Jeri
[6:28:25 PM] Emilia: like Sylveon has a decent typing
[6:28:26 PM] Emilia: and
[6:28:29 PM] Emilia: nothing else
[6:28:37 PM] Jeri Chee: Sylveon's typing is nice and it has a little Psychic coverage.
[6:28:37 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Moon Blast
[6:28:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It beat Ash's Froakie!
[6:28:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: ...wait
[6:28:42 PM] Mercutio :: Sylveon is like most pure Fairies. Only good because it's pure Fairy
[6:28:43 PM] Jeri Chee: Other than that it's pretty bad.
[6:28:48 PM] Miror: Oh look a Skype Kush
[6:28:55 PM] Jeri Chee: It's totally outclassed by the other Pure fairies.
[6:29:02 PM] Emilia: ^
[6:29:04 PM] Emilia: ^^
[6:29:04 PM] Drunk Homosexual: not totally
[6:29:06 PM] Jeri Chee: Especially Clefable, but even Slurpuff does what it does way better.
[6:29:07 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it has some stuff
[6:29:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Swirlix tho
[6:29:16 PM] Emilia: Aromatisse is better
[6:29:20 PM] Jeri Chee: It has Eevee tricks but Eevee tricks are really only okay
[6:29:21 PM] Emilia: and I hate aromapisse
[6:29:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Eevee tricks have good synergy with Fairy as a type
[6:29:45 PM] Jeri Chee: I like Sylveon. It's just not great.
[6:29:51 PM] Dave (Konsept): so Jeri, the longlist of potential TL6 we ended up with was Gengar/Dnite/Snorlax/Clef/Wiggly/Metagross/Lapras/Absol/Flygon
[6:30:00 PM] Jeri Chee: I'd say that's probably close
[6:30:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it's not that long a list
[6:30:06 PM] Jeri Chee: Flygon is really on the fence though
[6:30:10 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Whoever designed Aromatisse should reconsider themselves
[6:30:20 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:30 PM] Rotom-Epiu:

<<< Whoever designed Aromatisse should reconsider themselvesxD
[6:30:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): agreed
[6:30:33 PM] several slightly sad mummies: Jeri, out of curiosity, what eeveelution is the "best" in your eyes?
[6:30:35 PM] Lesbian Poro: I was hoping for a Plague Doctor Flamingo
[6:30:38 PM] Jeri Chee: Easily Vaporeon.
[6:30:38 PM] Lesbian Poro: Not that thing
[6:30:51 PM] Jeri Chee: The only other note I have is I don't love a TL6 non-evolver.
[6:31:01 PM] Mercutio :: Vappy surely, but isn't that inly because Water is a needlessly good type?
[6:31:05 PM] Jeri Chee: Absol -is- really good, but TL6 is high considering you have to be TL6 to get it
[6:31:11 PM] Jeri Chee: Basically, Kush
[6:31:18 PM] Dave (Konsept): I thought we did away with that rule?
[6:31:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): I was under the impression you could have non-evolver uplevels now
[6:31:30 PM] Drunk Homosexual: uplevel non-evolver
[6:31:31 PM] Emilia: 99% sure we did
[6:31:38 PM] Jeri Chee: Or TL5 yeah whatever
[6:31:44 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, we took out all the color-coding shit on the site
[6:32:00 PM] Jeri Chee: No we did I phrased it poorly
[6:32:12 PM] Jeri Chee: I don't really think of uplevels as actually having the 'mon xd
[6:32:15 PM] Mercutio :: ah, the colour coding, I was so happy when we killed that
[6:32:18 PM] Lesbian Poro: Tbh
[6:32:22 PM] Lesbian Poro: We need TL7
[6:32:26 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Maybe
[6:32:27 PM] Mercutio :: why
[6:32:34 PM] Emilia: We need something to make TL6 worthwhile really
[6:32:37 PM] Mercutio :: I mean I do agree but what's your overriding reason?
[6:32:39 PM] Jeri Chee: Everything fits pretty cleanly into 6 TLs.
[6:32:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: When we reason 1k Pokemon
[6:32:45 PM] Mercutio :: because it would be a huge ballache to deal with
[6:33:15 PM] DaveTFG: [6:32 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< ah, the colour coding, I was so happy when we killed thatsame tbh
[6:33:20 PM] Lesbian Poro: Mainly for the fact leveling has become easily easy now for some people due to KO farming and high reffing
[6:33:32 PM] Drunk Homosexual: well, level gaining
[6:33:32 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Change levelling not TLs
[6:33:36 PM] Jeri Chee: So I think I'd be fine with the TL6 shortlist except we should probably bump down Absol and Lapras.
[6:33:51 PM] Jeri Chee: TL3 to TL6 is a huge jump especially when it doesn't have any preevos.
[6:33:52 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I'd argue vehemently on Lapras
[6:33:57 PM] Rotom-Epiu: idk about lap
[6:34:02 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Lapras is really good
[6:34:11 PM] Jeri Chee: I'm aware
[6:34:14 PM] Emilia: Lapras is a really controversial TL5
[6:34:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Lap is gritty stellar
[6:34:17 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and Lapras is easily TL5 minimum
[6:34:36 PM] Lesbian Poro: Lap and Absol are TL4
[6:34:37 PM] Jeri Chee: I just don't like the idea of an entire line being locked out until TL6.
[6:34:41 PM] Jeri Chee: Not many people get that far.
[6:34:54 PM] Jeri Chee: TL5 is already sort of a stretch.
[6:34:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it's only locked until TL5
[6:35:03 PM] Emilia: yeah but snorlax is a thing
[6:35:09 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and TL5 is nothing nowadays
[6:35:11 PM] Emilia: and I mean no one uses munchlax
[6:35:12 PM] Emilia: ever
[6:35:12 PM] Mercutio :: I do completely sympathise with the non evolving line thing, Jeri, but Lapras and Absol are at worst TL5
[6:35:16 PM] Jeri Chee: Munchlax isn't that bad.
[6:35:17 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Machamp X
[6:35:23 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:35 PM] Emilia:

<<< yeah but snorlax is a thingas is Munchlax
[6:35:28 PM] Jeri Chee: shrug
[6:35:29 PM] Emilia: roto you're fired
[6:35:30 PM] Mercutio :: Munchlax is very usable
[6:35:35 PM] Rotom-Epiu: ;
[6:35:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): Lapras and Absol could do at TL5 without breaking things
[6:35:42 PM] Jeri Chee: I'm not going to fight for this tooth and nail because ultimately it doesn't affect me.
[6:35:42 PM] Mercutio :: but Snorlax is gratuitously excellent
[6:35:54 PM] Jeri Chee: Yeah Snorlax is pretty amazing
[6:35:59 PM] Emilia: oh no I agree
[6:35:59 PM] Jeri Chee: Better than Clefable in many aspects.
[6:36:05 PM] Dave (Konsept): Snorlax is the only TL6 I want
[6:36:06 PM] Mercutio :: yup
[6:36:10 PM] Dave (Konsept): super cool
[6:36:12 PM] Emilia: snorlax is TL6 never change unless TL7 happens
[6:36:19 PM] Rotom-Epiu: The TL6 mons are all lame
[6:36:24 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I don't even want Metagross
[6:36:34 PM] Jeri Chee: Snorlax was like one of the first Pokémon to be bumped up because of how ridiculously good it iis
[6:36:35 PM] Lesbian Poro: Why is Hydreigon even TL6 lol?
[6:36:43 PM] Mercutio :: because pre fairy it was excellent
[6:36:45 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Gamefreak
[6:36:47 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Fairy wasn't a thing
[6:36:49 PM] Jeri Chee: Hydreigon should probably be TL5 now
[6:36:50 PM] Mercutio :: it was probably TL5/6 standard
[6:36:56 PM] Mercutio :: but now it's definitely TL5
[6:37:01 PM] Jeri Chee: TL4 is a little low for a pseudolegend.
[6:37:07 PM] Lesbian Poro: Yeah it is
[6:37:08 PM | Edited 6:37:17 PM] Miror: I wouldn't mind lower Hydreigon, but that's mainly because I'm sick of Zweilous c:
[6:37:10 PM] Emilia: TL4 Chomp!
[6:37:11 PM] Jeri Chee: And 1 3 5 is a clean track
[6:37:12 PM] Dave (Konsept): when gen V was first done, we did everything by analogy with existing mon because gen V's levels were silly
[6:37:13 PM] Mercutio :: cough Garchomp
[6:37:23 PM] Jeri Chee: Except Garchomp but Garchmop blows
[6:37:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): so Hydreigon was this gens equivalent of DNite and Salamence
[6:37:37 PM] Drunk Homosexual: can we have TL4 Chomp?

Stealthy 02-14-2015 07:58 PM

Sneazey and I would like to propose that we do TL fixing first, as changing that would have large effects on this.

Celebii151 02-14-2015 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rotomotorz (Post 668663)
Previous discussion we had today, for the records. Warning: Long as heck

Spoiler: show

>Was going to make a Level Acquisition thread in LO forums
[5:04:30 PM] Connor Swanston: >Jeri says in S/I that's happening soon
[5:04:32 PM] Connor Swanston: Ha
[5:04:35 PM] Drunk Homosexual: be one of them big bears with a bald head and a bushy beard
[5:04:49 PM] Mercutio :: do it, Connor, get it done
[5:04:59 PM] Dave (Konsept): so for about half an hour my beard was longer than my hair
[5:05:00 PM] Mercutio :: we need to swap Kingdra and Gengar round haha
[5:05:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual: "soon"
[5:05:06 PM] Dave (Konsept): when I first cut it super short
[5:05:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): oh god yeah why is Kingdra TL6?
[5:05:39 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's a 4 at best
[5:05:54 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah there are a lot of things which need shifting
[5:06:12 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, neither Fairy or Dragon is a great offensive type so it's defensively decent but
[5:06:13 PM] Dave (Konsept): has no movepool
[5:06:33 PM] Zach Ragan "Deebs": Mawile for TL5
[5:06:39 PM] Mercutio :: Idk I'd be inclined to leave it at 5 purely on the basis of it being a Kingdra
[5:06:44 PM] Dave (Konsept): Lapras for TL5
[5:06:54 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Lapras is probably legit TL5 material
[5:06:55 PM] Mercutio :: Lapras is surely alredy TL5
[5:06:57 PM] Zach Ragan "Deebs": Pls no
[5:06:58 PM] Stealthy: Flygon for TL6
[5:07:04 PM | Edited 5:07:12 PM] Dave (Konsept): I tried, the others argued it down to 4
[5:07:10 PM] Stealthy: Lapras for TL5 for sure
[5:07:17 PM] Mercutio :: man I really hope I wasn't one of the ones arguing for TL4 Lapras lol
[5:07:20 PM] Mercutio :: that is an awful call
[5:07:22 PM] Dave (Konsept): I don't remember
[5:07:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): and now can't check
[5:07:27 PM] Stealthy: Would also argue that Cleffy and Absol and Wiggly could all go for TL5
[5:07:29 PM] Zach Ragan "Deebs": Ugh you fuckers keeping all the good shit to yourselves.
[5:07:34 PM] Stealthy: Aegislash needs like TL3/4
[5:07:39 PM] Stealthy: Mawile to TL3 minimum
[5:07:46 PM] Stealthy: Heatmor to TL3
[5:07:47 PM] Mercutio :: although I do remember having a huge argument with someone about Gyarados going up to TL4 when it was still a TL2 (hilariously)
[5:07:56 PM] Mercutio :: Mawile to TL3 is a good fit
[5:07:59 PM] Mercutio :: it's beatable
[5:08:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): probably me, I pushed for it to be 4
[5:08:03 PM] Stealthy: Gardevoir and Gallade could probably go to TL5
[5:08:11 PM] Mercutio :: nono I wanted it to be 4
[5:08:19 PM] Mercutio :: and someone else was adamant that the 4x made it unusable
[5:08:26 PM] Mercutio :: it might have been SM?
[5:08:47 PM] Mercutio :: Garde-twins should be TL5 but I thought we already did that
[5:08:52 PM] Sprinks Sneaze: 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0//////////////////////
[5:08:57 PM] Stealthy: I think Sneazey and I both have mockups with a shitton of changes.
[5:08:57 PM] Dave (Konsept): how many TL5's are there at the moment? I counted all of this once
[5:09:01 PM] Stealthy: But both are for TL7
[5:09:06 PM] Stealthy: Uh like 20 something
[5:09:07 PM] Mercutio :: is this one of the changes we never implemented last time>
[5:09:11 PM] Connor Swanston: Yes
[5:09:27 PM] Connor Swanston: Gardelade going to TL5 was mentioned by pretty much everyone in the last review thread
[5:09:28 PM] Dave (Konsept): you probably don't want more than half a dozen TL6's and maybe 20-30 TL5's
[5:09:32 PM] Connor Swanston: But of course none of them were actually implemented
[5:09:46 PM] Connor Swanston: Presumably due to laziness and then later impending ORAS changes
[5:09:50 PM] Mercutio :: I'd say 6 max for TL6 and maybe 15 max at TL5
[5:09:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): because you gotta let the lower levels have access to some stuff
[5:10:06 PM] Mercutio :: yeah I agree the pressure should always be downwards
[5:10:11 PM] Zach Ragan "Deebs": Yes, thanks for the breadcrumbs.
[5:10:23 PM] Stealthy: There are 21 TL5s
[5:10:31 PM] Stealthy: and 6 TL6s
[5:10:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): that seems like a decent number
[5:10:41 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah especially given a few will drop
[5:10:46 PM] Stealthy: Yeah. A few need to go up but several need dropping
[5:10:47 PM] Mercutio :: yeah
[5:10:50 PM] Stealthy: Haxorus is TL4
[5:11:02 PM] Mercutio :: yeah but Haxorus is not great unless you know what you're doing
[5:11:10 PM] Connor Swanston: Haxorus and Garchomp can both go down
[5:11:23 PM] Stealthy: Aegi can go down
[5:11:29 PM] Mercutio :: Garchomp is probably ok at TL5 if we put Flygon up to TL6 (which we should do)
[5:11:35 PM | Edited 5:11:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): I reckon you probably want to decide a hard cap for TL6's and TL5's before starting. rather than saying "this is really good, should go to 6" more like "these are the top X, they're TL6, these are the next Y, they're 5"
[5:11:35 PM] Mercutio :: because Garchomp's new SC is nutty
[5:11:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): for those two levels anyway
[5:12:08 PM] Stealthy: If I had my way Kingdra leaves TL6 and Gengar and Flygon hop in
[5:12:16 PM] Dave (Konsept): just to make sure no-one gets too trigger happy with "oh this is really good, better bump that up"
[5:12:43 PM] Dave (Konsept): so what's TL6 at the moment?
[5:13:35 PM] Dave (Konsept): because it should be like, Gengar/Dnite/Snorlax/Clefable/Wiggly/Absol, something like that
[5:13:48 PM] Mercutio :: Absol TL6? what's it now?
[5:13:53 PM] Stealthy: Dragonite, Hydreigon, Kingdra, Metagross, Snorlax, Rhyperior
[5:13:56 PM] Dave (Konsept): and to put anything else in TL6 require one of those to go down
[5:13:59 PM] Stealthy: Absol is TL4
[5:14:03 PM] Mercutio :: Hydreigon is probably TL5 now
[5:14:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: TL6 Lapras
[5:14:08 PM] Mercutio :: Absol should be 5
[5:14:11 PM] Mercutio :: Lapras 5/6
[5:14:13 PM] several slightly sad mummies: Kingdra should... probably not be there
[5:14:19 PM] Stealthy: Absol, Cleffy, and Wiggly all should be TL5
[5:14:20 PM] Mercutio :: Kingdra is 4/5
[5:14:27 PM] Mercutio :: agree, Stealthy
[5:14:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): Cleffy is definitely a 6
[5:14:31 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's insane
[5:14:38 PM] Stealthy: That bumps Jiggly/Clefairy to TL3 instead of TL2
[5:14:46 PM] Connor Swanston: Clefable has a few holes though
[5:14:51 PM] Dave (Konsept): seems fine to me, the babies are totally usable
[5:14:52 PM] Mercutio :: well the thing is that how much better than their prevolutions are they really?
[5:15:02 PM] Connor Swanston: Actually fairly significantly
[5:15:12 PM] Connor Swanston: The babies miss out on quite a bit
[5:15:16 PM] Connor Swanston: Notably some of the Gen I crack
[5:15:16 PM] Dave (Konsept): I'm more making the point you want to pick out the best 6 or so pokemon and have them TL6
[5:15:21 PM] Mercutio :: oh no I meant the full to the mid stages]
[5:15:24 PM] Mercutio :: the babies are shite
[5:15:25 PM] Connor Swanston: Oh right
[5:15:30 PM] Connor Swanston: It depends
[5:15:35 PM] Connor Swanston: Wiggly maybe not as much as Clefable
[5:15:39 PM] Mercutio :: yeah this is why baby gym is not a hugely sensible idea
[5:15:42 PM] Stealthy: I agree that we want to make sure that no TL gets over populated, but I don't think we should do it as you're suggesting Concept
[5:15:45 PM] Mercutio :: because most of them are crap
[5:16:04 PM] Stealthy: If there are 10 pokemon that deserve TL6, then TL6 should have ten pokemon
[5:16:07 PM] Connor Swanston: Anyway I've thrown it into the LO forum and something will no doubt get done soon
[5:16:14 PM] Mercutio :: lolololol
[5:16:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah but I think we disagree on what "deserves TL6" means
[5:16:21 PM] Stealthy: Also Sneazey and I want a review of TLs
[5:16:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): in my eyes, "deserves TL6" means "is one of the top six mon"
[5:16:37 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah that is significantly bigger but something I likewise would not hate to see
[5:16:47 PM] Connor Swanston: I don't know, I reckon TL6 could be expanded to 8
[5:16:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): because if you start making TL5 and 6 too big you rob the lower levels of anything fun to play with]
[5:16:53 PM] Mercutio :: yeah that's not what TL6 should mean
[5:17:28 PM] Dave (Konsept): s'all well and good for us to go "yeah x deserves TL6" when it makes diddly difference to us getting it
[5:17:51 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Hey look a TL discussion
[5:17:57 PM] Mercutio :: none of us are actually corrupt though
[5:17:59 PM] Mercutio :: so that's not a problem
[5:18:07 PM] Connor Swanston: I don't think they'll get too overpopulated if we're smart about it (which we probably will be)
[5:18:07 PM] Drunk Homosexual: corruption!
[5:18:19 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, I'd also argue that there's nothing else really on par with Gengar/Snorlax/Dnite/Lapras/Clef/Wiggly
[5:18:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): so putting anything else to the same level as them seems silly
[5:18:30 PM] Connor Swanston: And the way I see it is bluntly if they are that good, then they should be deserving of a high TL
[5:18:37 PM] Mercutio :: as we're saying the trend is downwards. every time we do these level things more Pokémon move down
[5:18:40 PM] Connor Swanston: Rhyperior is excellent
[5:18:43 PM] Stealthy: [5:18 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< like, I'd also argue that there's nothing else really on par with Gengar/Snorlax/Dnite/Lapras/Clef/Wiggly
so putting anything else to the same level as them seems sillyWell, there's Absol and Flygon
[5:18:49 PM] Rotom-Epiu: ^
[5:18:54 PM] Dave (Konsept): none of them are Gengar
[5:18:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): or Dnite
[5:18:56 PM] Mercutio :: Rhyperior is TL5
[5:18:56 PM] Connor Swanston: The only serious boner against Rhyperior is the common weaks
[5:19:09 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Also have we also mentioned that Aegislash really should move down a TL or two?
[5:19:13 PM] Connor Swanston: Yes
[5:19:14 PM] Stealthy: We have
[5:19:16 PM] Connor Swanston: Numerous times, Roto
[5:19:16 PM] Connor Swanston: =P
[5:19:23 PM] Mercutio :: Aegislash is like... the epitome of us assuming that ingame will translate
[5:19:28 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Ha
[5:19:33 PM] Mercutio :: we were definitely wrong about it
[5:19:48 PM] Mercutio :: although the fact that it's incredibly boring, I was right about that
[5:19:49 PM] Dave (Konsept): like TL6 mon basically have a move for every situation
[5:19:58 PM] Connor Swanston: I would definitely put Flygon in that bracket then
[5:20:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): Absol really doesn't, nor does Flygon
[5:20:33 PM] Mercutio :: I think Absol does
[5:20:38 PM] Mercutio :: and Flygon certainly does
[5:20:48 PM] Dave (Konsept): flygon can't do anything if statused, for example iirc
[5:20:48 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Absol lacks a whole lot of support
[5:20:54 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Flygon does for sure
[5:20:55 PM] Mercutio :: yeah but status isn't hugely relevant
[5:21:04 PM] Dave (Konsept): see any time I use Venonat
[5:21:15 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's easy to completely shut Flygon down until it dies
[5:21:18 PM] Mercutio :: support isn't all that relevant either sadly
[5:21:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): just by making sure it's staused every time it goes second
[5:21:30 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It isn't but it is moreso than statuses
[5:21:30 PM] Mercutio :: it should be
[5:21:31 PM] DaveTFG: [5:18 PM] Connor Swanston:

<<< The only serious boner against Rhyperior is the common weaksalso Aggron
[5:21:40 PM] Mercutio :: Aggron is different though
[5:21:44 PM] Rotom-Epiu: And can be used as a factor to influence TL placement
[5:21:45 PM] Mercutio :: it only has three weaknesses
[5:21:55 PM] Mercutio :: Rhyperior is weak to everything
[5:22:01 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Just two of them are huge and dumb
[5:22:07 PM] Mercutio :: I mean where would you put Ttar?
[5:22:17 PM] Spark: I hate being so physically exhausted I just want to sleep
[5:22:23 PM] Spark: Then being unable to sleep
[5:22:27 PM] Mercutio :: its movepool is idiotic but it's only useful against Entei because Entei is shite
[5:22:27 PM] Drunk Homosexual: TL5 at least
[5:22:32 PM] Spark: Because I can't focus on shit right now
[5:22:35 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, to be TL6 something should need to be able to typespam a wide range of things and get out of at least some statuses on its own and not have an arseton of weaknesses and be able to boost and status and not be easily out-bulked
[5:22:47 PM] Dave (Konsept): and probably other things I can't think of
[5:22:51 PM] Mercutio :: Absol has all of those things
[5:22:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, they should have no easily exploitable weakness
[5:22:58 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah there's a reason I made my Tyranitar sig it being pure Rock
[5:23:03 PM] Mercutio :: what you've missed out is slf recovery
[5:23:14 PM] Mercutio :: a lot of stuff does not have self recovery
[5:23:21 PM] Connor Swanston: Flygon does!
[5:23:39 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah but you can entirely shut Flygon down by status abuse
[5:23:47 PM] Dave (Konsept): and it just can't do anything about it
[5:23:47 PM] Mercutio :: I really don't think you can
[5:24:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): name one move it has that recovers it from status
[5:24:19 PM] Dave (Konsept): if you can't do that, you're not TL6 because you can be shut down by anything with confuse ray
[5:24:20 PM] Connor Swanston: Focus Energy rids confusion if we're counting that
[5:24:21 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Flygon can blow away powders, is immune to electrical paralysis, and can normally shut down something before Toxic becomes relevent
[5:24:26 PM] Connor Swanston: Ha
[5:24:36 PM] Rotom-Epiu: And is naturally SE against Fire types, the main burners
[5:25:13 PM] Dave (Konsept): Flygon is a solid 5, but it's no way on a par with Gengar or Dnite or Snorlax
[5:25:15 PM] Drunk Homosexual: He also has significant Bug and Fire, with some flying, to hurt Grasses, other main statusers
[5:25:17 PM] Connor Swanston: Flygon is also technically innately resistant to Confuse Ray
[5:25:26 PM] Drunk Homosexual: lenses?
[5:25:29 PM] Connor Swanston: Yeah
[5:25:37 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, I've drawn Daves bug Flygon with a dark type
[5:25:40 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's not great
[5:25:40 PM] Mercutio :: outside of the standard unorthodox uses of moves, it hasn't really got any, but so what? status abuse has never resulted in shutting down a Pokémon every single round (unless your foe is an idiot)
[5:25:46 PM] Mercutio :: Dave sucks
[5:25:48 PM] Dave (Konsept): dude
[5:25:53 PM] DaveTFG: [5:21 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< it only has three weaknessesbut one of them is Fighting
[5:25:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): have you ever seen me battle?
[5:25:56 PM] DaveTFG: everything has Fighting moves
[5:26:01 PM] Mercutio :: yes I know how you battle
[5:26:02 PM] Dave (Konsept): I shut down mon every single round all the time
[5:26:08 PM] Stealthy: Concept you're exceptional
[5:26:10 PM] Stealthy: Congrats
[5:26:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Concept
[5:26:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: You're actually
[5:26:15 PM] Mercutio :: Flygon is easily capable of dealing with that
[5:26:16 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Good
[5:26:27 PM] Mercutio :: the fat that it doesn't have reliable un-statu isn't really a factor
[5:26:30 PM] Emilia: oh speaking of level acquisitions
[5:26:31 PM] Stealthy: We don't rank things based on how easily Cocnept can fuck them sideways
[5:26:34 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's not hard to say "do *status move*" as your second order every time you go second
[5:26:34 PM] Emilia: bouffalant to TL 3 pls
[5:26:43 PM | Edited 5:26:49 PM] Mercutio :: notwithstanding the fact that not much has reliable self un-status
[5:26:45 PM] Emilia: its probably too much for TL 1 pokes really
[5:26:45 PM] Dave (Konsept): and then not break the status when going first
[5:26:55 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Confusion has diminishing effects?
[5:27:05 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Toxic can't stack?
[5:27:10 PM | Edited 5:27:18 PM] DaveTFG: [5:25 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< like, I've drawn Daves bug Flygon with a dark typea) Absol
b) mine wasn't immune to Thunder Wave, which you used
[5:27:11 PM] Mercutio :: like what you're saying isn't invalid but you're seriously overestimating the value of status abuse in this discussion
[5:27:24 PM] Drunk Homosexual: on the lower end
[5:27:34 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Vivillon I think is still TL2
[5:27:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and Vespiquen is TL3 iirc
[5:27:49 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Vivillon deserves it, but so do some other butterflies
[5:27:50 PM] Drunk Homosexual: these might need a bump down one
[5:27:53 PM] Stealthy: Vivillon should be consistent with the other butterflies
[5:28:05 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Personally all the butterflies can stand to move up one
[5:28:10 PM] Drunk Homosexual: no
[5:28:12 PM] several slightly sad mummies: please bring vespiquen down xd
[5:28:18 PM] Emilia: On Ghosts, Aegislash and Gourgeist should be TL3
[5:28:24 PM] Mercutio :: yeah I would not be averse to making basically every final Bug type TL2 lol
[5:28:29 PM | Edited 5:28:42 PM] Dave (Konsept): shrug I just don't think anything deserves TL6 unless there's no match-ups in which it's fucked beyond hope of winning, and there are for Flygon
[5:28:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): imo
[5:28:35 PM] Mercutio :: clearly an exaggeration but
[5:28:35 PM] Spark: Anyone around to rf through a leveler?
[5:28:45 PM] Spark: Want to level some things before UaCC starts
[5:28:47 PM] Rotom-Epiu: yeah I would not be averse to making basically every final Bug type TL2 lolAs opposed to TL1?
[5:28:58 PM] Mercutio :: yes
[5:29:00 PM] Emilia: Aegislash is pretty much utter shite and Gourgeist isn't too good but its definitely TL3 material
[5:29:06 PM] Mercutio :: but also a few higher level ones brought down
[5:29:10 PM] Stealthy: Yeah we've discussed Aegi
[5:29:14 PM] Emilia: I know
[5:29:18 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I think all the regionbugs not Scolipede and Leavanny should be TL1
[5:29:18 PM] Mercutio :: Bug is not a particularly good type and it has bad synergy with most types
[5:29:20 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Gourgeist isn't horrible
[5:29:23 PM] Emilia: I'm restating with my authority as Ghost GL
[5:29:24 PM] Emilia: :P
[5:29:33 PM] Emilia: I never said Gourgeist was horrible
[5:29:33 PM] Rotom-Epiu: But it could stand to be better
[5:29:40 PM] Mercutio :: didn't I 4-0 you in a Ghost match?
[5:29:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: oh, actually
[5:29:42 PM] Mercutio :: :P
[5:29:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: And not TL4
[5:29:46 PM] Emilia: its just not on the same level as Trevenant or Mismagius or Dusclops
[5:29:49 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Ledian and Ariados, too
[5:29:55 PM] Stealthy: Oh right
[5:29:58 PM] Stealthy: Missy can go to TL5
[5:30:04 PM] Emilia: will cut a bitch
[5:30:06 PM] Emilia: :P
[5:30:06 PM] Mercutio :: Missy is pretty great
[5:30:13 PM] Mercutio :: where do we have Dusky?
[5:30:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Oh right
Missy can go to TL5This should probably happen but
[5:30:19 PM] Stealthy: Dusknoir is TL5
[5:30:20 PM] Spark: Dusk is TL5
[5:30:22 PM] Stealthy: Dusclops is TL4
[5:30:24 PM] Emilia: Dusclops is at TL4, Dusknoir is TL5
[5:30:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): is there a list in TL order anywhere?
[5:30:32 PM] Emilia: Kin had one iirc
[5:30:39 PM] Emilia: and Sneezey is making sortable tables for the site
[5:30:40 PM] Mercutio :: I had Kin make one and then did nothing with it
[5:30:43 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah some of the Ghosts should go up because Ghost in general is OP
[5:30:53 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Is our justification "How does this Pokémon fare on its own" or "How can this Pokémon fare against other Pokémon on the same TL"?
[5:30:54 PM] Mercutio :: but yeah sortable tables are the answer (or, you know, copy it in to a spreadsheet)
[5:30:58 PM] Dave (Konsept): Mismagius and Dusknoir are probably 5's with Gengar TL6
[5:31:13 PM] Stealthy: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
[5:31:17 PM] Stealthy: From my Tl7 mockup
[5:31:29 PM] Emilia: Chandelure could also stand to drop to TL3 I think
[5:31:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): Stealthy I love you
[5:31:32 PM] Stealthy: Can sort by Number, Alphabetically, and TL
[5:31:32 PM] several slightly sad mummies: stealthy for best secret member
[5:31:36 PM] Mercutio :: Tl3?
[5:31:38 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Chande is fine at 4
[5:31:43 PM] Mercutio :: I feel like it's ok at 4
[5:31:44 PM] Emilia: Chande is not great
[5:31:48 PM] Emilia: like at all
[5:31:56 PM] Dave (Konsept): right so
[5:31:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Chandy at 4
[5:32:00 PM] Spark: Damn even his gmail is Stealthy
[5:32:08 PM] Dave (Konsept): is Metagross still six with the Steel nerf?
[5:32:14 PM] Stealthy: Debatable
[5:32:15 PM] Emilia: ^
[5:32:26 PM] Stealthy: There was a push last time, but it's become an excellent fairy killer
[5:32:37 PM] Spark: I think it's fine at 6
[5:32:38 PM | Edited 5:32:42 PM] Mercutio :: I think 'gross is probably TL5
[5:32:40 PM] Dave (Konsept): >Rhyperior
[5:32:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): lol 5
[5:32:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I feel like it's 6
[5:32:57 PM] Dave (Konsept): waaaaaay too easily typespammed to death by things with wide movepools
[5:33:10 PM] several slightly sad mummies: why is dedenne TL2
[5:33:11 PM] Spark: >Garchomp at 6
[5:33:12 PM | Edited 5:33:19 PM] Emilia: To be fair Metagross now has match-ups in which its rather boned
[5:33:15 PM] Spark: Que?
[5:33:16 PM] Stealthy: Rhyperior the more I think of it needs 5
[5:33:22 PM] Stealthy: Spark wrong column
[5:33:23 PM] Emilia: namely most Ghost types
[5:33:27 PM] Mercutio :: Metagross is not as nuanced as it ought to be and its offensive variety isn't TL6
[5:33:32 PM | Edited 5:33:38 PM] Dave (Konsept): if the Steel nerf is making Metagross borderline then Rhyperior should go down, it has way more weaknesses than even nerfed 'Gross
[5:33:35 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I wouldn't agree on Garde being TL6
[5:33:45 PM] Stealthy: Wrong column
[5:33:47 PM] Spark: Chomp has Current Level: 5, New Level: 6
[5:33:49 PM] Mercutio :: the Gardes are TL5
[5:33:57 PM] Stealthy: 6 is under a TL7 system
[5:34:04 PM] Emilia: Chomp can probably go to 4
[5:34:08 PM] Stealthy: And it's a rough draft of the TL7 system
[5:34:09 PM] Spark: ik, but Chomp sucks
[5:34:16 PM] Emilia: Chomp doesn't suck
[5:34:22 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I know it's under a TL7 system, but still
[5:34:30 PM] Mercutio :: Chomp is fine at 5 if Flygon is 6
[5:34:38 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Agreed with chomp at 5
[5:34:47 PM] Mercutio :: if Flygon is 5... you can probably argue Chomp at 4
[5:34:54 PM] Stealthy: I think it's less bad as much as it is overshadowed as fuck by Flygon and everybody dislikes Garchomp from comp
[5:34:56 PM] Spark: Even if it doesn't suck it's fairly outclassed and very few people would use it if they could also use Flygon
[5:35:13 PM] Stealthy: Separating it from Flygon is a good call, and Flygon totally wants TL6 so all good
[5:35:18 PM] Dave (Konsept): is Hydreigon really a 6?
[5:35:18 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Garchomp is wrose than Flygon
[5:35:22 PM] Mercutio :: I think Flygon probably needs a bit of a nerf rather than being shifted up to TL6 actually
[5:35:23 PM] Dave (Konsept): I know nothing about it
[5:35:24 PM] Emilia: Hydreigon is not a 6
[5:35:27 PM] Mercutio :: Hydreigon is not a 6
[5:35:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Hydreigon shouldn't be 6
[5:35:46 PM] Mercutio :: it was 5/6 material pre Fairy type and we moved it up
[5:35:48 PM] Spark: Maybe before, but now everything gets Dazzling Gleam
[5:36:00 PM] Mercutio :: it's excellent, but not Dragonite level excellent
[5:36:04 PM] Stealthy: It was on the chopping block last year
[5:36:09 PM] Emilia: Well to be fair dazzling gleam isn't really important as
[5:36:16 PM] Emilia: several pokemon gaining a typing which completely dicks it over
[5:36:30 PM] Spark: Well obviously
[5:36:32 PM] Emilia: Since Hydreigon has very little to hit Fairies
[5:37:11 PM] DaveTFG: silly Spark, things don't get Fairy moves
[5:37:27 PM] Mercutio :: grumbles about Umbreon
[5:37:33 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Mime Jr sure doesn't
[5:37:38 PM] Spark: I thought it was Fairies don't get Fairy moves x_x
[5:37:49 PM] Stealthy: Nothing gets fairy moves
[5:37:56 PM | Edited 5:38:24 PM] Dave (Konsept): so what, Dnite/Gross/Snorlax stay at TL6 and Gengar/Clefable/Wiggly/Flygon/Absol/Lapras move in? are there are in those that seem like they would probably lose to the others? Because that's too many
[5:37:58 PM] Stealthy: Even fairies
[5:38:30 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it's not too many
[5:38:35 PM] Stealthy: It's 9 total. Not terrible at all
[5:38:55 PM] Stealthy: Probably about the upper limit but still.
[5:38:58 PM] Emilia: Absol could probably come down to 5
[5:39:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): realistically speaking if all of those deserve the bump to 6 then a lot of 4 would deserve the bump to 5
[5:39:05 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, a third of it
[5:39:05 PM] Emilia: but otherwise I have no issues
[5:39:07 PM] Drunk Homosexual: he have over 700 Pokémon and we're just going to get more and more and more
[5:39:19 PM] Drunk Homosexual: 9 Pokémon in TL6 should not be too big a deal
[5:39:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: especially since 2/3 are Gen I with crack oozing from every pore
[5:40:15 PM] Dave (Konsept): shrug I just think if we're letting TL6 standards drop that low then TL5 standards drop to encompass like, a third of TL4
[5:40:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): and you run out of FE things for Deebs to have
[5:40:30 PM] Dave (Konsept): :P
[5:40:48 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I don't think we're lowering the standards at all
[5:40:49 PM] Stealthy: I think you could make some arguments on some of the 9, but those are the candidates
[5:40:55 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I think Pokémon have been getting better
[5:41:14 PM] Stealthy: I mean, if you made the top 10 ASB pokemon, it'd be those and then a lot of bitching over the 10th.
[5:41:15 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and moreover, we're actually making an effort to balance this
[5:41:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): [5:40 PM] Drunk Homosexual:

<<< I think Pokémon have been getting betteryeah but this.. isn't really relevant. if everything's getting better, then relatively nothing moves.
[5:42:02 PM] Dave (Konsept): otherwise eventually everything ends up with TL4+ movesets
[5:42:04 PM] Stealthy: But yeah a fair bit of 4 wants 5. Some of 5 wants 4
[5:42:20 PM] Drunk Homosexual: some 4 wants 3 and some 3 wants 4, as well
[5:42:24 PM] Stealthy: Mhmm
[5:42:30 PM] Dave (Konsept): shrug I thought the TL5/6 we decided on last time were pushing too big
[5:42:48 PM] Stealthy: TL2 I think has a fair few oddballs with it too.
[5:42:59 PM] Drunk Homosexual: well, make it too small, there's no point to even having TL 5/6
[5:43:09 PM | Edited 5:43:43 PM] Dave (Konsept): it's easy to say for those of us who will get access to them regardless, but to joe average ASBer who's just been told to wait an extra year for all his favourites that kinda sucks. and if it kinda sucks people will stop playing
[5:43:10 PM] Emilia: Bouffalant comes to mind in TL2
[5:43:59 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, priority one is not balance. priority one is make ASB keep going
[5:44:03 PM] Stealthy: Clearly the answer is the Rangeet method of letting everybody have anything they want
[5:44:06 PM] Emilia: its big and bulky, has the right movepool for what its meant to do, and generally is insane with the combination of uplevel + SCs
[5:44:13 PM] A Cat: ( '-')
[5:44:20 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Clearly the answer is the Rangeet method of letting everybody have anything they wantNo pls
[5:44:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): which means giving the average TL3/4 some cool shit to play with and not confiscating it all to TL5/6
[5:44:30 PM] Drunk Homosexual: yes, Bouffalant could be TL3 we know this
[5:44:38 PM] Rotom-Epiu: We can't let Cibbir finish his Pokedex
[5:44:42 PM] Drunk Homosexual: 9 Pokémon is not "all"
[5:44:46 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I mean what
[5:45:11 PM] Dave (Konsept): no but you were just talking about TL5 getting bigger too because "pokemon in general have been getting better"
[5:45:17 PM] Dave (Konsept): that's a crap trend to start
[5:45:35 PM] Stealthy: Most TL5 discussions we've had right now have been about kicking things out.
[5:45:41 PM] Stealthy: People want Garchomp to move down
[5:45:44 PM] Stealthy: People want Aegi out
[5:45:51 PM] Drunk Homosexual: no I was talking about letting some Pokémon who probably should already have been higher-level anyway, into TL6
[5:45:51 PM] Stealthy: People want Magnezne and Haxorus out
[5:45:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): [5:42 PM] Stealthy:

<<< But yeah a fair bit of 4 wants 5.
[5:46:11 PM] Stealthy: [5:41 PM] Stealthy:

<<< Some of 5 wants 4
[5:46:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): some of a smaller TL will go down compared to a fair bit of a larger TL going up, that's clearly not a big incread in TL5
[5:46:34 PM] A Cat: Altaria for TL3!
[5:46:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): what was I thinking
[5:46:39 PM] Stealthy: And a good chunk of what I'd think to move to 5 we basically considered putting straight to 6 like Lapras and Absol
[5:47:09 PM] Drunk Homosexual: not sure why they were so low in the first place
[5:47:15 PM] Mercutio :: you're probably overthinking this, Concept
[5:47:40 PM] Dave (Konsept): Lapras and Absol specifically are low because other LOs insisted on putting shit like Haxorus in TL5 in there place despite my objections :P
[5:47:52 PM] Mercutio :: why did we put Haxorus at TL5?
[5:47:52 PM] Stealthy: [5:47 PM] Drunk Homosexual:

<<< not sure why they were so low in the first placeThe transition from acquisitions being levelup based to quality based has been very slow
[5:47:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): fuck knows
[5:48:02 PM] Mercutio :: it's not been that slow
[5:48:02 PM] Stealthy: idk it's Haxorus. Looks cool and impressive.
[5:48:03 PM] Rotom-Epiu: sAME REASON YOU PUT aEGI AT 5
[5:48:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Haxorus is not TL5 material
[5:48:13 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Awkward caps strikes again!
[5:48:14 PM] Drunk Homosexual: It's decent
[5:48:25 PM] Mercutio :: a few things were slow, see Bouffalant vs Kingdra, but generally we just made the changes in the first place
[5:48:26 PM] Stealthy: Probably expected Haxorus to get decent tutor help
[5:48:26 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah Haxorus is lower end of 4
[5:48:29 PM] Emilia: Rotom for TL6
[5:48:30 PM] Emilia: (cat)
[5:48:37 PM | Edited 5:48:41 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Rotom for TL6Hey now
[5:48:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): and only its physical bulk without a slow/fat body stops it from dropping to 3
[5:48:41 PM] DaveTFG: Rotom for TL8
[5:48:44 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Uncalled for
[5:48:45 PM] Drunk Homosexual: but it loses out on a lot of what Dragons like, with only Incinerate for Fire and no flight
[5:48:45 PM] several slightly sad mummies: Missy for TL6
[5:48:49 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and not being aquatic
[5:48:55 PM] Mercutio :: Haxorus is... yeah, TL4 at best
[5:49:05 PM] Emilia: Hax is probably TL4 but I've never used it
[5:49:10 PM] Emilia: so my opinion isn't worth much
[5:49:11 PM] Mercutio :: like, I used it in the gym a bit but meh
[5:49:15 PM] Stealthy: Hax is good in close quarters
[5:49:17 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah if it was slower or physically less imposing it'd go to three in a heartbeat
[5:49:22 PM] Celebelebi: Gyarados for TL2 please
[5:49:26 PM] Stealthy: But that's about it
[5:49:26 PM] Mercutio :: of course, I used it against something that we all know we are going to end up discussing: Serperior
[5:49:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): as it is its fast and can smash smash so it makes 4
[5:49:35 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Give it Contrary
[5:49:39 PM] Mercutio :: Gyarados is 4/5
[5:49:40 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I'd actually make a point for TL3 Gyarados
[5:49:40 PM] Stealthy: Ugh. Serperior.
[5:49:49 PM] Celebelebi: Serperior TL4 for internal consistency!
[5:49:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): I think the internal consistency on starters can piss off
[5:49:53 PM] Stealthy: We're gonna have the internal consistency fight with starters all over again
[5:50:00 PM] Emilia: [5:49 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< I think the internal consistency on starters can piss offthis
[5:50:08 PM] Drunk Homosexual: TL3 Feraligatr
[5:50:12 PM] Mercutio :: yeah I'm starting to go that way
[5:50:12 PM] Stealthy: Like, the starters could be spread from TL3-5
[5:50:15 PM] Mercutio :: yeah
[5:50:22 PM] Emilia: We have a TL5 starter?
[5:50:25 PM] Emilia: Charizard maybe?
[5:50:30 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Charlizard
[5:50:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): ehh not convinced any of them are 5
[5:50:32 PM] Mercutio :: it'll be really annoying because people like having starters on their teams from the get go
[5:50:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Potentially Emboar
[5:50:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I honestly want them internally consistent
[5:50:42 PM] Mercutio :: but like, Inferanape is probably a 5
[5:50:50 PM] Stealthy: I could see arguments for Infernape, Blaziken, and Feraligatr
[5:50:50 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Venusaur maybe
[5:50:51 PM] Drunk Homosexual: lolwut
[5:50:52 PM] Mercutio :: where Serperior is definitely a 3
[5:50:57 PM] Stealthy: Roto shut up
[5:50:58 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I can see for Blaziken
[5:50:58 PM] Emilia: Well to be fair, we do have to consider megas in this
[5:51:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: not the others
[5:51:08 PM] Mercutio :: ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
[5:51:13 PM] Emilia: yes kush we know
[5:51:14 PM] Stealthy: Several of the grasses could go 3
[5:51:16 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, imo TL6 is exceptional pokemon that are never outright outmatched, TL5 is the best representative of each type with a smattering of other awesome things for the stronger types
[5:51:18 PM] Spark: Serperior for TL1
[5:51:24 PM] Emilia: But Mega Char X is pretty fucking incredible
[5:51:26 PM] Mercutio :: fucking Mega bullshit gamefreak!!!!!!!
[5:51:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): then TL3 and 4 are all the fully evolveds not called Beautifly
[5:51:38 PM] Mercutio :: you can't stratify it like that, Concept
[5:51:38 PM] Emilia: =3
[5:51:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: fucking Mega bullshit gamefreak!!!!!!!Don't we all
[5:51:41 PM] Celebelebi: No Starter deserved TL5
[5:51:43 PM] Mercutio :: the types are not equal
[5:51:45 PM] Celebelebi: *deserves
[5:51:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: 1/2/4 is probably the best spread for Starters
[5:51:59 PM] Emilia: The only one I'd argue is Charizard honestly
[5:52:00 PM] Mercutio :: it is
[5:52:05 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Oh yeah while we're at it Mantine should move up to TL8
[5:52:06 PM] Emilia: because its mega is great
[5:52:10 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I mean what
[5:52:12 PM] Mercutio :: but we need to look again at boosting Serpy and Meganium
[5:52:15 PM] Celebelebi: root shut up you’re biased
[5:52:18 PM] Spark: Celebibibibibi
[5:52:19 PM] Celebelebi: Anyways
[5:52:20 PM] Emilia: Serpy and Meganium should go to 3
[5:52:21 PM] Spark: level with me
[5:52:23 PM] Celebelebi: Claydol for TL8?
[5:52:27 PM] Lesbian Poro: Level Aquisitions?
[5:52:28 PM] Emilia: internal consistency be damned
[5:52:29 PM] Rotom-Epiu: root shut up you’re biasedThis is news?
[5:52:29 PM] Mercutio :: and probably some of the other garbage like Typhlosion (not as good as people say it is)
[5:52:30 PM] Dave (Konsept): [5:51 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< the types are not equalwhich is why for the best types (see; ghost) you can probably find two that belong there
[5:52:33 PM] Celebelebi: Spsek you rejected me
[5:52:34 PM] Stealthy: 1/2/4 is a good spread. If we dump consistency then Serp and Meganium and maybe Delphox go to 3
[5:52:37 PM] Celebelebi: Now I have no slots
[5:52:38 PM] Celebelebi: Unless
[5:52:46 PM] Emilia: Greninja honestly isn't great either
[5:52:48 PM] Celebelebi: I ask Lanturn to put our battle on hold
[5:52:48 PM] Mercutio :: oh yeah Delphox is not great
[5:52:49 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I think that's the way, yeah, Kush
[5:52:51 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Delphox will never be good
[5:52:52 PM] Stealthy: The two better fire fighters can go to 5 with argument.
[5:52:53 PM] Spark: I said I just couldn't rf until Saturday ;;
[5:52:54 PM] Celebelebi: ^
[5:52:54 PM] Dave (Konsept): but like, if even Ghost can only make three TL5/6's despite being the best type
[5:52:59 PM] Dave (Konsept): nothing else should be making more than that
[5:53:00 PM] Celebelebi: Sorry Spsek
[5:53:00 PM] Emilia: its like really low TL4
[5:53:02 PM] Dave (Konsept): realistically
[5:53:02 PM] Mercutio :: but we should be boosting its shite SC instead of dropping it down
[5:53:03 PM] Lesbian Poro: Greninja jas some niche things
[5:53:04 PM] Celebelebi: I’ll ask Lanturn
[5:53:12 PM] Drunk Homosexual: yeah
[5:53:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: inb4 Sneezey "I HAD TO REF BRAIXEN AND DELPHOX OFF AND IT WAS SHIT"
[5:53:17 PM] Mercutio :: Greninja similarly can be rescued with SC abuse
[5:53:27 PM] Celebelebi: Greninja is not bad.
[5:53:28 PM] Emilia: Greninja's SC is really its only saving point
[5:53:29 PM] Celebelebi: It’s just not great.
[5:53:36 PM] Stealthy: [5:52 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< but like, if even Ghost can only make three TL5/6's despite being the best typeFour. Golurk/Missy/Dusk/Gengar
[5:53:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Greninja got better with tutors
[5:53:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk?
[5:53:41 PM | Edited 5:53:53 PM] Dave (Konsept): lol
[5:53:44 PM] Dave (Konsept): 4
[5:53:48 PM] Dave (Konsept): mediocre 4
[5:53:49 PM] Emilia: ...no Golurk is 5
[5:53:50 PM] Mercutio :: Dave, how does Greninja compare to the other Water/Darks?
[5:53:52 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Glourk is a 5
[5:53:54 PM] Emilia: Golurk is definitely 5
[5:53:58 PM] Mercutio :: Golurk is very much TL5
[5:54:01 PM] Lesbian Poro: GOlurk is a 5
[5:54:02 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk is big and can fly and that's about it
[5:54:03 PM] Lesbian Poro: So much a 5
[5:54:03 PM] A Cat: [5:49 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< I think the internal consistency on starters can piss offall my this
[5:54:07 PM] Dave (Konsept): but so is Tropius
[5:54:10 PM] Emilia: Golurk stomps over pretty much everything
[5:54:15 PM] Drunk Homosexual: is Froslass enough for TL5?
[5:54:17 PM] Celebelebi: no
[5:54:19 PM] Emilia: no
[5:54:20 PM] Spark: no
[5:54:23 PM] Lesbian Poro: Froslass is a wet paper bag
[5:54:25 PM] Celebelebi: Froslass has a terribad typing
[5:54:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): god no. the only Ice I'd consider TL5/6 is Lapras
[5:54:36 PM] Celebelebi: TL4 at the MAX
[5:54:37 PM] Emilia: its massive, it has a great movepool for smashing things, and now it can go ethereal
[5:54:39 PM] Emilia: its TL5, easily
[5:54:44 PM] Lesbian Poro: Yeah
[5:54:48 PM] Lesbian Poro: Lapras could easily be TL5
[5:54:52 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It's also heavy and has a plethora of physical moves and ethereal potential
[5:55:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk is big and can fly, but that's true of Tropius too
[5:55:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): like
[5:55:02 PM] Emilia: Lapras is TL5/6 like no questions asked we all know this
[5:55:04 PM] Dave (Konsept): neither are good
[5:55:07 PM] Emilia: Tropius doesn't have its movepool
[5:55:12 PM] Emilia: nor does it has ethereal
[5:55:19 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk doesn't have a movepool
[5:55:19 PM] Emilia: that's a shit comparison
[5:55:19 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Lapras is probably TL6, like we said
[5:55:19 PM] Rotom-Epiu: But Golurk also has moves
[5:55:23 PM] Dave (Konsept): I've tried to use the thing
[5:55:27 PM] Mercutio :: that's an awful comparison
[5:55:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): it was shallow as a teaspoon
[5:55:30 PM] Celebelebi: Was it pre Gen V?
[5:55:33 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Also has better typing
[5:55:35 PM] Emilia: No its not lol
[5:55:36 PM] Celebelebi: *Gen V tutors?
[5:55:38 PM] Spark: Was it pre tutors?
[5:55:39 PM] Drunk Homosexual: before or after BW2, cept?
[5:55:43 PM] Mercutio :: Tropius is pretty good though
[5:55:46 PM] Stealthy: Dude. Golurk got major tutor crack.
[5:55:51 PM] Drunk Homosexual: because it got some great shit
[5:55:52 PM] Mercutio :: in typeless it becomes godlike
[5:55:55 PM] Dave (Konsept): after, I only picked up Golurk post my reset I think
[5:56:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual: like Scolipede, or Eel
[5:56:04 PM] Dave (Konsept): it was distinctly mediocre
[5:56:08 PM] MMS: Golurk got as much crack from tutors as Diggersby just got
[5:56:09 PM] Drunk Homosexual: got great tutors
[5:56:09 PM] A Cat: Dunsparce should totz be upped to TL2
[5:56:09 PM | Edited 5:56:17 PM] Lesbian Poro: Tutors made things like Golurk, Eele, and Scolipede great
[5:56:17 PM] Celebelebi: Elektrike?
[5:56:18 PM] Emilia: Eelektross
[5:56:21 PM] Stealthy: Concept maybe it's just your playstyle that doesn't work well with it.
[5:56:24 PM] Lesbian Poro: Can not spell
[5:56:31 PM] Dave (Konsept): I like big smash
[5:56:33 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Man
[5:56:34 PM] Celebelebi: Golurk has everything it needs to excel
[5:56:35 PM] Stealthy: Which is odd because you like things with girth
[5:56:37 PM] Dave (Konsept): I use Haxorus a load
[5:56:39 PM] Dave (Konsept): and find it much better
[5:56:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Why do we have Electrike and Eelectrik
[5:56:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): and I think Haxorus is barely 4
[5:56:50 PM] Rotom-Epiu: THey are almost the exact same name
[5:56:51 PM] Drunk Homosexual: because yes
[5:56:59 PM] Emilia: It's not worse than Haxorus
[5:57:01 PM] Drunk Homosexual: we have Kabuto and Kabutops
[5:57:02 PM] Celebelebi: On 2015-02-14, at 5:56 PM, Rotom-Epiu wrote:
> Why do we have Electrike and Eelectrik

yes
[5:57:03 PM] Emilia: that's silly
[5:57:03 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk is rescued from 3 by bulk and ethereal
[5:57:06 PM] Dave (Konsept): imo
[5:57:13 PM] Celebelebi: Rocket boosters though
[5:57:16 PM] Mercutio :: > Haxorus better than Golurk
[5:57:20 PM] Dave (Konsept): rocket boosters are cool
[5:57:21 PM] Mercutio :: ... no
[5:57:28 PM] Dave (Konsept): but cost solid energy a round to use
[5:57:28 PM] Drunk Homosexual: admittedly, his flight needs improved
[5:57:35 PM] Celebelebi: No it doesnt
[5:57:46 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Yeha no his flight cost way too much energy why
[5:57:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): definitely did when I used it because I had it sigged to be less stupid
[5:57:53 PM] Emilia: Golett admittedly is not great but Golurk is great
[5:57:55 PM] A Cat: Gigalith for TL3!
[5:57:58 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I don't see anything else that flies use so much energy
[5:57:59 PM] Mercutio :: it's too much energy but we should probably make it less effective as well
[5:58:06 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, its rocket boosters are totally unusable because way too much energy
[5:58:13 PM | Edited 5:58:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): you'd exhaust yourself trying to do any damage
[5:58:16 PM] Emilia: it also got phantom force which is a "fuck you" to it has no movement
[5:58:17 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I feel like that's a nerf, Kush
[5:58:38 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I think just decreasing the energy would work great
[5:58:51 PM] Celebelebi: Meh
[5:58:59 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Wait where does it say good energy per round for boosters
[5:59:01 PM] Mercutio :: it would be a net gain in usability
[5:59:12 PM] Celebelebi: I’m not fond of the idea of 3 meter tall 700 pound automatons flying around
[5:59:20 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I'm not sure it would
[5:59:23 PM] Mercutio :: which would be appropriate in this instance
[5:59:40 PM] Emilia: it doesn't say solid energy per round
[5:59:46 PM] Mercutio :: the reason no-one flies with Golurk has literally nothing to do with how effective it is
[5:59:46 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I’m not fond of the idea of 3 meter tall 700 pound automatons flying aroundI'm also not fond of flying manta rays
[5:59:46 PM] Emilia: it just says it burns through energy swiftly
[5:59:48 PM] Drunk Homosexual: is flight with massive energy cost better than poor flight that's not worth it?
[5:59:57 PM] Mercutio :: I didn't say poor flight
[6:00:04 PM] Mercutio :: I said less good flight than currently
[6:00:12 PM] Emilia: to be fair it can fly fast
[6:00:14 PM] Stealthy: The only reason to fly with Golurk is to make Golurk fucking fly
[6:00:16 PM] Dave (Konsept): man
[6:00:29 PM] Stealthy: Like, it doesn't do that much for it
[6:00:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): you'd think googlging "how many fully evolved pokemon are there" would give an answer pretty quick
[6:00:38 PM] Stealthy: But good god is it cool
[6:00:46 PM] Celebelebi: OHKOing Flabebes
[6:00:54 PM] Celebelebi: With Fly + Heavy Slam
[6:00:55 PM] Lesbian Poro: "FLY OVER THE ATTACK AND LAND ON IT, THEN DCEQ"
[6:00:58 PM] Drunk Homosexual: eye twitch
[6:00:59 PM] Mercutio :: Golurk is clearly someone at Gamefreak just really wanting to make it a thing
[6:01:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Golurk is clearly someone at Gamefreak just really wanting to make it a thingGood man, that guy
[6:01:17 PM] Mercutio :: man, I really wish Gamefreak hadn't fucked the Fairy type up
[6:01:19 PM] Drunk Homosexual: maybe they just wanted a golem
[6:01:22 PM] Celebelebi: someone who watched MEGAS XLR
[6:01:23 PM] Emilia: But the thing with Golurk is there isn't a single pokemon bar a ridiculous Water like Lapras who can fight it and not come out maimed or KOed
[6:01:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): ha
[6:01:33 PM] Dave (Konsept): no
[6:01:36 PM] Celebelebi: false
[6:01:37 PM] Mercutio :: nah that's not true, Golurk is beatable
[6:01:41 PM] Celebelebi: I believe that to be false
[6:01:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Golurk is beatable
[6:01:47 PM] Stealthy: Golurk's great but totally beatable.
[6:01:53 PM] Mercutio :: I'm now thinking about it and Im leaning more towards Concept's view - it's 4/5 material
[6:01:56 PM] Rotom-Epiu: As you may or may not see yourself
[6:01:59 PM] Emilia: I know its beatable, that was a slight exaggeration admittedly
[6:02:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual: [6:01 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< man, I really wish Gamefreak hadn't fucked the Fairy type upoh, please do, tell us what the new terrible thing about the type you have clear hatred for
[6:02:05 PM] Dave (Konsept): Golurk is not appreciably better than all the stuff like Blastoise and Marowak that makes up the bulk of TL4
[6:02:10 PM] Stealthy: Not as beatable as Haxorus of course
[6:02:13 PM] Mercutio :: although I really don't think I've actually fought one - Gollet doesn't really count lol
[6:02:18 PM] Dave (Konsept): I'd say it was worse than those but am apparently in the minority there
[6:02:19 PM] Lesbian Poro: Tbh
[6:02:23 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Golett isn't great
[6:02:24 PM] Emilia: Yeah Golett does not
[6:02:33 PM] Lesbian Poro: I don't like the idea of TL4 GOlurk mainly because of Uplevel Golurk at TL3
[6:02:42 PM] Stealthy: Golett makes a nice low level ghost. That's about it.
[6:02:48 PM] Mercutio :: I think I once reffed someone try and use Golett against some low level Water type and expect to run rampant
[6:02:56 PM] A Cat: Fairy as a type, with the exception of it being supereffective against dark, was very well executed. The amount of moves that where given to it however...
[6:03:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): I think there are definitely things at 3 that can beat Golurk comfortably
[6:03:17 PM] Dave (Konsept): bulk is a pain but it's not game over
[6:03:23 PM] Mercutio :: yeah but there are things that can beat Dragonite comfortably in TL1/2
[6:03:25 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I feel more like SE on fighting was less fitting
[6:03:28 PM] Emilia: yeah but its massive
[6:03:35 PM] Emilia: its not just "bulk" its huge
[6:03:44 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:03 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< yeah but there are things that can beat Dragonite comfortably in TL1/2I was responding to Lost worrying about uplevel Golurk at TL3
[6:03:51 PM] Mercutio :: yeah ASB seems to have retracted from the "ahhhhhh bulk = winning" mindset a little
[6:03:51 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, I don't think it'd be a problem
[6:04:05 PM] A Cat: [6:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual:

<<< I feel more like SE on fighting was less fittingMeh, fighting needed the nerf in-game. Dark really didn't
[6:04:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: [6:04 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< yeah ASB seems to have retracted from the "ahhhhhh bulk = winning" mindset a littlebout time
[6:04:15 PM] Mercutio :: mm
[6:04:19 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Size isn't deciding but it can easily play a role
[6:04:26 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Dark and Fighting had the same amount of weaknesses
[6:04:35 PM] Emilia: a lot of that was people not knowing how to beat bulk
[6:04:50 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Golurk also has a lot of moves
[6:04:50 PM] Dave (Konsept): jesus why will google not give me an answer to how many fully evolved pokemon there are
[6:04:54 PM] Mercutio :: it's always been weird to me that this is animé style battling and yet every single ref nerfs the exact play style that Ash uses all the time
[6:04:54 PM] A Cat: Yeah but like, everyone was sweeping with fighting shit
[6:05:02 PM] Mercutio :: i.e. yes you're small and shit but you can runnnnnnnnnnnnn
[6:05:11 PM] Emilia: because we've been told to?
[6:05:13 PM] A Cat: Fighting became more valuable in offensive settings then just about any other type
[6:05:21 PM] DaveTFG: >go away for 15 minutes
>200 messages
[6:05:22 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I thought Ash's playstyle is plot?
[6:05:23 PM] DaveTFG: guys pls
[6:05:29 PM] Rotom-Epiu: every single ref nerfs the exact play style that Ash uses all the timeWait that's a bad thing?
[6:05:31 PM] Emilia: we were arguing about golurk
[6:05:41 PM] DaveTFG: also Kush
[6:05:42 PM] DaveTFG: http://jl8comic.tumblr.com/post/7663...-to-share-each
[6:05:53 PM] Mercutio :: oh hey btw let's raise Klinklang to TL6 because it's a Stell type Regirock
[6:06:03 PM] Emilia: Aye!
[6:06:05 PM] Stealthy: [6:04 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< i.e. yes you're small and shit but you can runnnnnnnnnnnnnDidn't you know? Pokemon are all expert Chris Kyle level snipers with their accuracy
[6:06:27 PM] Drunk Homosexual: what if we're doing Mozz Rules?
[6:06:27 PM] Emilia: ...klinklang is TL3 right?
[6:06:31 PM] Rotom-Epiu: yes
[6:06:34 PM] Emilia: okay good
[6:06:34 PM] A Cat: Man like, the less then great legendaries should cost less to go after.
[6:06:41 PM] Emilia: had the weirdest thought it was 4
[6:06:44 PM] Mercutio :: Mozz rules: good idea, hilariously poor execution
[6:06:53 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Do people not pay attention to my TL2 Klinklang?
[6:07:02 PM] Drunk Homosexual: ... it was a good idea?
[6:07:07 PM] Dave (Konsept): so there are 322 fully evolved non legends, at a count
[6:07:08 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Yes
[6:07:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I don't regret it
[6:07:14 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Zorules seemed a better idea
[6:07:17 PM] A Cat: Gigalith for TL3!
[6:07:28 PM] Drunk Homosexual: then again
[6:07:33 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Zorules bestrules
[6:07:34 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Gigalith should stay TL4
[6:07:36 PM] Mercutio :: now that we generally give more type energy to stuff than when Mozz rules were a thing, we should probably more a little towards letting idle dodges happen more if you're smaller
[6:07:43 PM] Emilia: meh, gigalith is not at all great
[6:08:00 PM] A Cat: [6:07 PM] Rotom-Epiu:

<<< Gigalith should stay TL4but it has a shitty movepool and is a turret with a bad defensive typing.
[6:08:05 PM] Mercutio :: like, Pikachu vs Electivire should very much involve Pikachu running around and nipping at 'vire's heels
[6:08:08 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I'm nice about idle dodges for smaller Pokémon, but based on comparison
[6:08:17 PM] Mercutio :: pure Rock is perfectly good
[6:08:20 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Gigalith should probably be TL3
[6:08:25 PM] Emilia: ^
[6:08:29 PM] Mercutio :: it's not an awful defensive typing and is a good offence
[6:08:31 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Joltik can dodge a lot of boldore's things but not another Joltiks
[6:08:35 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Kush, stop lying
[6:08:39 PM] Dave (Konsept): rock is pretty bad, defensively
[6:08:40 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it's terrible defensively
[6:08:42 PM] Mercutio :: I think I'm biased because I really like Gigalith
[6:08:42 PM] A Cat: yay, people with respectable opinoins are agreeing with me!
[6:08:44 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Rock is an awful defensive type
[6:08:45 PM] Emilia: Fighting / Ground / Water / Grass weaknesses isn't awful?
[6:08:47 PM] Mercutio :: it's pretty bad
[6:08:54 PM] Mercutio :: but it's not in the bottom tier
[6:08:55 PM] Drunk Homosexual: also Steel
[6:08:57 PM] Emilia: also steel but lel steel
[6:09:00 PM] Drunk Homosexual: lolSteel
[6:09:01 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Grass is also an awful defensive type
[6:09:07 PM] Dave (Konsept): I mean, Ground/Fighting/Water/Grass/Steel
[6:09:11 PM | Edited 6:09:17 PM] Mercutio :: better than Flying, Bug, Ice, arguably Fire, Grass
[6:09:17 PM] Dave (Konsept): at least three of those suck to have as weaknesses
[6:09:17 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Yet when you put the two together you magically get a good defensive Pokemon
[6:09:28 PM] Emilia: *decent
[6:09:29 PM] Mercutio :: and certainly a better offensive type than several of those
[6:09:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): yeah Grass/Rock is weirdly good, I hope they introduce one I don't hate
[6:09:43 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Sudowoodo
[6:09:44 PM] Rotom-Epiu: idk Cradily is pretty good defensively
[6:09:50 PM] DaveTFG: [6:08 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< like, Pikachu vs Electivire should very much involve Pikachu running around and nipping at 'vire's heelsi remember reading a pretty good fanfic back in the DP era that predicted Ash vs Paul in the finals of the Sinnoh League - Electivire grabbed Pikachu and Pika ended up biting a chunk out of its hand
[6:09:51 PM] Mercutio :: Cradily is weirdly good yes
[6:09:53 PM] Lesbian Poro: Cradily~
[6:10:02 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Cradily has Brine now, too
[6:10:05 PM] Drunk Homosexual: weirdly
[6:10:08 PM] A Cat: [6:09 PM] Dave (Konsept):

<<< yeah Grass/Rock is weirdly good, I hope they introduce one I don't hatesig a Grass/Rock Mountain Gogoat
[6:10:13 PM] Mercutio :: it does? hah. that's good
[6:10:13 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Steel is rare, Ice can be STABed, fighting is the only real issue
[6:10:25 PM] Lesbian Poro: Bug
[6:10:28 PM] Emilia: Cradily isn't easy to pick up
[6:10:32 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Rock resists bug?
[6:10:35 PM] Lesbian Poro: No
[6:10:36 PM] Drunk Homosexual: no
[6:10:38 PM] Lesbian Poro: lawl
[6:10:41 PM] Emilia: (Also the only reason I'm not suggesting Spiritomb to TL3)
[6:10:43 PM] A Cat: Scizor for TL3!
[6:10:53 PM] Rotom-Epiu: really?
[6:10:53 PM] A Cat: Spiritomb for TL5!
[6:11:00 PM] Lesbian Poro: You know how many Tyranitars I've OHKO'd with Volcarona in Gen 5?
[6:11:03 PM] Lesbian Poro: A lot
[6:11:04 PM] A Cat: (the latter is a joke)
[6:11:12 PM] Drunk Homosexual: you have extra Ground to deal with Steels, as well, and Rock is SE on Ice and Bug
[6:11:18 PM] Emilia: Spiritomb is better than people give it credit for, but its also not easy for newbs to pick up and use effectively
[6:11:20 PM] Lesbian Poro: Because Quiver Dance is stupid
[6:11:30 PM] Drunk Homosexual: TL1 Spiritomb
[6:11:37 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I must learn the Spiritomb
[6:11:56 PM] A Cat: Sableye for TL5!
[6:12:13 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Rock is also mean for not resisting itself
[6:12:34 PM] Dave (Konsept): rock not resisting itself made me sad
[6:12:34 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Sableye's good but probably TL4
[6:12:45 PM] Dave (Konsept): when I was Mozz' GT and the only Rock I had was Aerodactyl
[6:12:57 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it hurts Aerodactyl, Armaldo, Magcargo, and others
[6:13:11 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Magcargo is hurt already
[6:13:13 PM] Dave (Konsept): is Sableye really TL4?
[6:13:18 PM] A Cat: Stantler for TL3!
[6:13:21 PM] Emilia: Sableye is small
[6:13:21 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I feel like it is, yes
[6:13:24 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Sableye is...eh
[6:13:33 PM] Emilia: I dunno to be honest I think the mega might push it over
[6:13:34 PM] A Cat: No really, Stantler is a newbie crushing machine...make it TL3
[6:13:42 PM] Dave (Konsept): weep for poor Magcargo. such a great movepool, such a terrible weakness spread
[6:13:43 PM] Emilia: but I lack of data woooo
[6:13:45 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Stantler exists?
[6:14:03 PM] A Cat: It does! MMS and I have one (I added it first tho)
[6:14:05 PM] Emilia: There are an odd number of TL2 quadruped normals
[6:14:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): s'because the quadruped normal are usually bad
[6:14:21 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Man I'm so proud of my Magcargo
[6:14:29 PM | Edited 6:14:35 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It beat a Primal Groundon and Primal Kyogre
[6:14:50 PM] Mercutio :: for those interested in continuing the type chart discussion, http://forums.upnetwork.net/showthre...629#post668629
[6:15:06 PM] Mercutio :: Magcargo... man, I wish it wasn't made of weaknesses
[6:15:11 PM] Mercutio :: it's so awesome
[6:15:22 PM] A Cat: I don't know, how many quadruped pure Normal types can we say are honestly bad?
[6:15:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): I feel the same way man. Aurorus too
[6:15:50 PM] Drunk Homosexual: It's got some great stuff, reliable recovery, only 2 weaknesses, an immunity, can Mean Look, it's a Ghost with a physical and Fighting movepool, and, unlike Umbreon, actually gets Dazzling Gleam
[6:15:53 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Sableye, I mean
[6:15:55 PM] Emilia: They aren't great, but for TL1 uplevels they tend to be completely fucking fantastic
[6:16:18 PM] Mercutio :: Sableye is pretty good
[6:16:24 PM] Drunk Homosexual: poor Umbreon
[6:16:25 PM] Mercutio :: > quadrupedal Normals
[6:16:29 PM] A Cat: It even gets Octazooka!
[6:16:34 PM] Mercutio :: I really think you overstate their utility
[6:16:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: but yeah I think Sableye is TL4
[6:16:45 PM] Mercutio :: we should boost them up up
[6:16:58 PM] Emilia: I'm not really Kush
[6:17:00 PM] Lesbian Poro: I don't want my Sableye stirpped from me QQ
[6:17:07 PM] Emilia: I know how good they are when compared to everyone else
[6:17:15 PM] Emilia: I also know how good they are compared to TL1
[6:17:18 PM] A Cat: Clearly, all quad mon should be given a speed boost
[6:17:20 PM] Mercutio :: yeah with one-stagers we should always be wary of making them too high
[6:17:21 PM] Emilia: its a big difference
[6:17:33 PM] Emilia: meh TL3 and be done with it really imo
[6:17:45 PM] Mercutio :: Sabeleye is probably fine at TL3, same as Mawile
[6:17:48 PM] Emilia: Tauros is TL4 right?
[6:17:56 PM] Lesbian Poro: Tauros is 3
[6:18:01 PM] Dave (Konsept): and can stay there
[6:18:07 PM] Mercutio :: it should be 4
[6:18:09 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Tauros is fine TL3
[6:18:16 PM] Emilia: definitely would have guessed four
[6:18:17 PM] Mercutio :: Bouffy... probably is a fine TL3
[6:18:32 PM] A Cat: I don't think you guys understand the raw power of the hooves!
[6:18:36 PM | Edited 6:18:52 PM] Dave (Konsept): Tauros should be one above Bouffalant, but not sure if that means 2/3 or 3/4
[6:18:55 PM] Emilia: I can see bouffalant being low TL3 and tauros being high TL3 really
[6:19:00 PM] Mercutio :: Tauros is arguably only a little bit worse than Absol
[6:19:04 PM] several slightly sad mummies: guys. dedenne is TL2.
[6:19:06 PM] Emilia: Bouffalant is still good really
[6:19:06 PM] Mercutio :: it has less sophistication
[6:19:07 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Maw and Tauros should both get 4, Bouffy should get 3
[6:19:07 PM] Jeri Chee: oh god
[6:19:09 PM] Mercutio :: but a better movepool
[6:19:10 PM] Jeri Chee: It's begun
[6:19:11 PM | Edited 6:19:18 PM] several slightly sad mummies: can we remedy this
[6:19:15 PM] Lesbian Poro: Shh Jeri
[6:19:15 PM] Mercutio :: Dedenne... is not good
[6:19:17 PM] Lesbian Poro: It's oaky
[6:19:20 PM | Edited 6:19:23 PM] Emilia: hey jer
[6:19:24 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It's begunIt's been going
[6:19:28 PM] Jeri Chee: Dedenne's only good thing is its typing
[6:19:32 PM] Jeri Chee: Literally nothing else about it is good
[6:19:33 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Dedenne cant even KO a goodra
[6:19:36 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Nuzzle
[6:19:39 PM] several slightly sad mummies: which is why we should bring it to
[6:19:39 PM] Emilia: dedenne for TL -5
[6:19:42 PM] several slightly sad mummies: TL1
[6:19:45 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Tl0
[6:19:50 PM] Mercutio :: yeah. I remember Concept and I both thinking we wanted to get one and then thinking oh wait we'll never use this it's terrible
[6:19:50 PM] Drunk Homosexual: is Dedenne not TL1 yet?
[6:19:57 PM] Emilia: its TL2 apparently
[6:20:00 PM] Rotom-Epiu: But its ok
[6:20:00 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Dedenne and Carbink need to be TL1
[6:20:06 PM] MMS: out of curiosity, has the notion of seperate level aquisitions for mega-evolutions been considered? There's no doubt that megas make mons that are perfectly fine in TLX into mons that need to go to TLY. I'm sure it has been thought about and shot down for good reason, but I've never hear anything about it, so :P
[6:20:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Dedenne get Parabola Charge
[6:20:14 PM] Jeri Chee: To be fair Carbink's SC is kinda good
[6:20:20 PM] Emilia: its also carbink
[6:20:24 PM] Emilia: it has a movepool of nothing
[6:20:28 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Carbink can go to two
[6:20:28 PM] Jeri Chee: Megas will influence leveling decisions.
[6:20:35 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:20 PM] MMS:

<<< out of curiosity, has the notion of seperate level aquisitions for mega-evolutions been considered? There's no doubt that megas make mons that are perfectly fine in TLX into mons that need to go to TLY. I'm sure it has been thought about and shot down for good reason, but I've never hear anything about it, so :Pso originally the way I wrote it, mega forms counted as uplevels
[6:20:37 PM] Drunk Homosexual: we do that to most terrible Pokémon, Jeri
[6:20:42 PM] Drunk Homosexual: except Beautifly
[6:20:43 PM] Mercutio :: Carbink is really good at beams guys
[6:20:49 PM] Mercutio :: let's not forget the beams
[6:20:49 PM] Dave (Konsept): which essentially made the mega evo's one TL higher than their base forms
[6:20:51 PM] Jeri Chee: But we're not going to force people to have a certain level to use Megas.
[6:20:54 PM] Lesbian Poro: What beam moves does it get?
[6:20:59 PM] Emilia: none
[6:21:00 PM] Jeri Chee: None!
[6:21:00 PM] Dave (Konsept): then the other LOs went and changed it for some reason :P
[6:21:02 PM] Drunk Homosexual: that's the point
[6:21:12 PM] Mercutio :: that's the joke
[6:21:19 PM] Jeri Chee: We wanted people to be able to use Megas, Concept.
[6:21:26 PM] Emilia: I dunno see the only megas I feel really should be weighed in are the ones who change typings
[6:21:32 PM] Jeri Chee: But then the automatic disobedience thing on levelup Megas became an issue
[6:21:33 PM] Mercutio :: Megas should be overly accessible
[6:21:33 PM] Emilia: like if you are using Aggron, you are going to use its mega
[6:21:37 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Why is that a bad thing cept?
[6:21:41 PM] Emilia: like 99 times out of 100
[6:21:55 PM] Emilia: because rock/steel is awful
[6:21:56 PM] Rotom-Epiu: But then
[6:22:03 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Pure Steel Aggrons
[6:22:08 PM] Jeri Chee: The only Pokémon I forsee changing due to Mega is Mawile, Pinsir and maybe something like Aggron.
[6:22:15 PM] Lesbian Poro: >Pinsir
[6:22:16 PM] Emilia: ...pinsir?
[6:22:16 PM] Lesbian Poro: Wut
[6:22:19 PM] Drunk Homosexual: wut
[6:22:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): shrug I felt having megas as uplevels meant we didn't have to let the existence of mega forms drag the normal forms up in TL out of peoples hands
[6:22:26 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Pinsir isn't bad!\
[6:22:30 PM] Dave (Konsept): also it let me abuse the Bowl badge on mega's too
[6:22:32 PM] Mercutio :: Pinsir is not bad at all
[6:22:33 PM] Drunk Homosexual: you mean Pinsir going down?
[6:22:37 PM] Jeri Chee: Yeah Pinsir's pretty good
[6:22:40 PM] Mercutio :: what level is Pinsir now?
[6:22:43 PM] Emilia: TL2
[6:22:45 PM] Drunk Homosexual: 2 I think
[6:22:45 PM] Jeri Chee: idk
[6:22:47 PM] Lesbian Poro: Yes but Bug/Flying a a horrid type
[6:22:54 PM] Jeri Chee: Mawile is definitely rising
[6:22:54 PM] Mercutio :: yeah I feel like 2 is ok but Mega Pinsir... meh
[6:22:55 PM] Drunk Homosexual: yeah, speaking of
[6:22:56 PM] Jeri Chee: For various reasons.
[6:22:57 PM] MMS: I mean, stuff like Charizard and Sableye have been specifically mentioned here as toeing the line because of their mega, which is why I rbought it up
[6:22:59 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Yes but it's good
[6:23:05 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Vespiquen. TL2 please?
[6:23:05 PM] Emilia: To be fair
[6:23:07 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Bug Flying can be as bad as it wants
[6:23:08 PM] Emilia: Char Y is perfectly fine
[6:23:12 PM] Mercutio :: guys we've had the internal consistency debate about starters... can we talk about eeveelutions?
[6:23:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Mega Pinsir is still good
[6:23:16 PM] Emilia: Char X is a whole different beast
[6:23:17 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and Vivillon TL1
[6:23:23 PM] Jeri Chee: See Kush
[6:23:23 PM] Mercutio :: jokes aside, Umbreon is crap and Flareon isn't
[6:23:28 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:23 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< guys we've had the internal consistency debate about starters... can we talk about eeveelutions?they all suck except Flareon
[6:23:29 PM] Mercutio :: why are they the same level
[6:23:34 PM] Jeri Chee: They're all pretty bad in the scheme of things.
[6:23:35 PM] Emilia: Which is?
[6:23:39 PM] Emilia: TL3?
[6:23:39 PM] Jeri Chee: And TL3 isn't exactly high.
[6:23:43 PM] Dave (Konsept): Flareon is an OK fire!
[6:23:48 PM] Drunk Homosexual: internal consistency
[6:23:51 PM] Jeri Chee: If one goes down they all go down
[6:23:52 PM] Mercutio :: I'd argue that the Gen I guys are pretty good
[6:23:54 PM] Emilia: You can have them all except Flareon be TL2
[6:23:57 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Guys Flareon gets Flare Blitz
[6:23:59 PM] Emilia: and it would probably be okay
[6:24:02 PM] Rotom-Epiu: gasp horror
[6:24:02 PM] Mercutio :: like Flareon is on par with TL4 Fires now
[6:24:03 PM] Jeri Chee: None of them really outclass anything at any level beyond 1.
[6:24:10 PM] Jeri Chee: ???
[6:24:17 PM] Mercutio :: Idk you're the GL maybe I'm wrong
[6:24:21 PM] Jeri Chee: Flareon is nowhere near as good as Magmar
[6:24:22 PM] Jeri Chee: Like
[6:24:23 PM] Emilia: also to be fair giving newbies their eeveelutions is a good thing
[6:24:23 PM] Jeri Chee: Not even close
[6:24:34 PM] Mercutio :: it's worse
[6:24:36 PM] Dave (Konsept): oh man
[6:24:37 PM] Mercutio :: maybe
[6:24:42 PM] A Cat: [6:23 PM] Drunk Homosexual:

<<< internal consistencymay go die in a puddle of its own urin
[6:24:43 PM] Mercutio :: I guess?
[6:24:48 PM] Jeri Chee: Unquestionably xd
[6:24:49 PM] Dave (Konsept): can you imagine how many eeveelution uplevels would happen if they were TL2?
[6:24:54 PM] Jeri Chee: As someone who has used a lot of both
[6:24:58 PM] Jeri Chee: I can tell you that for sure
[6:25:01 PM | Edited 6:25:10 PM] Emilia: it means we can finally not have to worry about explaining why eevee is utter shite
[6:25:01 PM] Mercutio :: ok
[6:25:06 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I'd agree if we change one, we should change them all
[6:25:06 PM] Rotom-Epiu: can you imagine how many eeveelution uplevels would happen if they were TL2?Oh goodness no
[6:25:25 PM] Dave (Konsept): I think it'd be pretty cool
[6:25:28 PM] Mercutio :: guys lets just make Eevee TL2 and be done with it, then we don't have to tell kids not to pick one up
[6:25:35 PM] Emilia: TL3 Eevee
[6:25:37 PM] Emilia: just to make sure
[6:25:41 PM] Mercutio :: TL3vee?
[6:25:42 PM] Dave (Konsept): because jokes aside, almost no-one uses the eeveelutions because they're outclassed at 3
[6:25:50 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Just bane Eevee from the league
[6:25:52 PM] Drunk Homosexual: wow, that's dickish
[6:25:57 PM] Emilia: it was also a joke
[6:26:00 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I mean, I should expect that from Kush
[6:26:00 PM] Rotom-Epiu: You can only pick up Eeveelutions
[6:26:01 PM] Drunk Homosexual: but
[6:26:13 PM] Jeri Chee: TL2 Eeveelutions would be fine
[6:26:19 PM] Emilia: Flareon is really good at TL2, and it honestly makes sense that its the only outlier
[6:26:22 PM] Jeri Chee: They're pretty on par with the average TL2 acquisition
[6:26:23 PM] Dave (Konsept): inb4 equiall 2 Jeri's gym
[6:26:30 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Espeon may also stand to move up
[6:26:34 PM] Emilia: Espeon is bad
[6:26:34 PM] Drunk Homosexual: you mean down
[6:26:42 PM] Jeri Chee: Espeon is okay
[6:26:43 PM] Mercutio :: hmm maybe I'm overstating how good the eeveelutions are I always think that the Gen I ones are some of the better ones of their type (the rest are not)
[6:26:52 PM] Jeri Chee: Vaporeon is probably the best
[6:27:00 PM] Jeri Chee: But it's average as a Water.
[6:27:02 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It's better only because it gets cute Psychic tools and recovery
[6:27:04 PM] Emilia: Vappy is pretty good but all in all its an average water
[6:27:16 PM] Mercutio :: I'll cede to the majority opinion
[6:27:19 PM] Emilia: yeah and so does kadabra
[6:27:24 PM] Emilia: Kadabra > Espeon
[6:27:24 PM] Jeri Chee: Jolteon is on par with other quad electrics
[6:27:28 PM] Mercutio :: although if Umbreon is TL2 then Absol is TL1
[6:27:33 PM] Jeri Chee: Flareon is a middling Fire type
[6:27:34 PM] Emilia: ha
[6:27:37 PM] Mercutio :: Jolteon is surely better than Luxray
[6:27:38 PM] Jeri Chee: Espeon is an okay Psychic
[6:27:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Luxray is better
[6:27:44 PM] Jeri Chee: Umbreon sucks
[6:27:51 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Did we give Luxray X-ray vision yet?
[6:27:52 PM] Jeri Chee: Leafeon is a mediocre grass.
[6:27:56 PM] Emilia: Sylveon is probably worse than Umbreon
[6:27:57 PM] Emilia: honestly
[6:27:58 PM] Mercutio :: we did give it X ray vision
[6:27:59 PM] Jeri Chee: Glaceon is unsavable
[6:28:00 PM] Drunk Homosexual: One thing Espeon and Vaporeon do have in theor favour is BP
[6:28:03 PM] Mercutio :: it is a total wastw of time as predicted
[6:28:04 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:27 PM] Jeri Chee:

<<< Leafeon is a mediocre grass.ouch
[6:28:12 PM] Jeri Chee: Sylveon is pretty poor
[6:28:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Glaceon ;~;
[6:28:18 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Sylveon is awesome and I will cut you
[6:28:19 PM] Mercutio :: Glaceon si indeed unsavable
[6:28:23 PM] Jeri Chee: Glaceon is about as good as Snorunt
[6:28:23 PM] Drunk Homosexual: not you, Jeri
[6:28:25 PM] Emilia: like Sylveon has a decent typing
[6:28:26 PM] Emilia: and
[6:28:29 PM] Emilia: nothing else
[6:28:37 PM] Jeri Chee: Sylveon's typing is nice and it has a little Psychic coverage.
[6:28:37 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Moon Blast
[6:28:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: It beat Ash's Froakie!
[6:28:42 PM] Rotom-Epiu: ...wait
[6:28:42 PM] Mercutio :: Sylveon is like most pure Fairies. Only good because it's pure Fairy
[6:28:43 PM] Jeri Chee: Other than that it's pretty bad.
[6:28:48 PM] Miror: Oh look a Skype Kush
[6:28:55 PM] Jeri Chee: It's totally outclassed by the other Pure fairies.
[6:29:02 PM] Emilia: ^
[6:29:04 PM] Emilia: ^^
[6:29:04 PM] Drunk Homosexual: not totally
[6:29:06 PM] Jeri Chee: Especially Clefable, but even Slurpuff does what it does way better.
[6:29:07 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it has some stuff
[6:29:12 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Swirlix tho
[6:29:16 PM] Emilia: Aromatisse is better
[6:29:20 PM] Jeri Chee: It has Eevee tricks but Eevee tricks are really only okay
[6:29:21 PM] Emilia: and I hate aromapisse
[6:29:41 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Eevee tricks have good synergy with Fairy as a type
[6:29:45 PM] Jeri Chee: I like Sylveon. It's just not great.
[6:29:51 PM] Dave (Konsept): so Jeri, the longlist of potential TL6 we ended up with was Gengar/Dnite/Snorlax/Clef/Wiggly/Metagross/Lapras/Absol/Flygon
[6:30:00 PM] Jeri Chee: I'd say that's probably close
[6:30:03 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it's not that long a list
[6:30:06 PM] Jeri Chee: Flygon is really on the fence though
[6:30:10 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Whoever designed Aromatisse should reconsider themselves
[6:30:20 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:30 PM] Rotom-Epiu:

<<< Whoever designed Aromatisse should reconsider themselvesxD
[6:30:21 PM] Dave (Konsept): agreed
[6:30:33 PM] several slightly sad mummies: Jeri, out of curiosity, what eeveelution is the "best" in your eyes?
[6:30:35 PM] Lesbian Poro: I was hoping for a Plague Doctor Flamingo
[6:30:38 PM] Jeri Chee: Easily Vaporeon.
[6:30:38 PM] Lesbian Poro: Not that thing
[6:30:51 PM] Jeri Chee: The only other note I have is I don't love a TL6 non-evolver.
[6:31:01 PM] Mercutio :: Vappy surely, but isn't that inly because Water is a needlessly good type?
[6:31:05 PM] Jeri Chee: Absol -is- really good, but TL6 is high considering you have to be TL6 to get it
[6:31:11 PM] Jeri Chee: Basically, Kush
[6:31:18 PM] Dave (Konsept): I thought we did away with that rule?
[6:31:29 PM] Dave (Konsept): I was under the impression you could have non-evolver uplevels now
[6:31:30 PM] Drunk Homosexual: uplevel non-evolver
[6:31:31 PM] Emilia: 99% sure we did
[6:31:38 PM] Jeri Chee: Or TL5 yeah whatever
[6:31:44 PM] Dave (Konsept): like, we took out all the color-coding shit on the site
[6:32:00 PM] Jeri Chee: No we did I phrased it poorly
[6:32:12 PM] Jeri Chee: I don't really think of uplevels as actually having the 'mon xd
[6:32:15 PM] Mercutio :: ah, the colour coding, I was so happy when we killed that
[6:32:18 PM] Lesbian Poro: Tbh
[6:32:22 PM] Lesbian Poro: We need TL7
[6:32:26 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Maybe
[6:32:27 PM] Mercutio :: why
[6:32:34 PM] Emilia: We need something to make TL6 worthwhile really
[6:32:37 PM] Mercutio :: I mean I do agree but what's your overriding reason?
[6:32:39 PM] Jeri Chee: Everything fits pretty cleanly into 6 TLs.
[6:32:40 PM] Rotom-Epiu: When we reason 1k Pokemon
[6:32:45 PM] Mercutio :: because it would be a huge ballache to deal with
[6:33:15 PM] DaveTFG: [6:32 PM] Mercutio ::

<<< ah, the colour coding, I was so happy when we killed thatsame tbh
[6:33:20 PM] Lesbian Poro: Mainly for the fact leveling has become easily easy now for some people due to KO farming and high reffing
[6:33:32 PM] Drunk Homosexual: well, level gaining
[6:33:32 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Change levelling not TLs
[6:33:36 PM] Jeri Chee: So I think I'd be fine with the TL6 shortlist except we should probably bump down Absol and Lapras.
[6:33:51 PM] Jeri Chee: TL3 to TL6 is a huge jump especially when it doesn't have any preevos.
[6:33:52 PM] Drunk Homosexual: I'd argue vehemently on Lapras
[6:33:57 PM] Rotom-Epiu: idk about lap
[6:34:02 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Lapras is really good
[6:34:11 PM] Jeri Chee: I'm aware
[6:34:14 PM] Emilia: Lapras is a really controversial TL5
[6:34:15 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Lap is gritty stellar
[6:34:17 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and Lapras is easily TL5 minimum
[6:34:36 PM] Lesbian Poro: Lap and Absol are TL4
[6:34:37 PM] Jeri Chee: I just don't like the idea of an entire line being locked out until TL6.
[6:34:41 PM] Jeri Chee: Not many people get that far.
[6:34:54 PM] Jeri Chee: TL5 is already sort of a stretch.
[6:34:56 PM] Drunk Homosexual: it's only locked until TL5
[6:35:03 PM] Emilia: yeah but snorlax is a thing
[6:35:09 PM] Drunk Homosexual: and TL5 is nothing nowadays
[6:35:11 PM] Emilia: and I mean no one uses munchlax
[6:35:12 PM] Emilia: ever
[6:35:12 PM] Mercutio :: I do completely sympathise with the non evolving line thing, Jeri, but Lapras and Absol are at worst TL5
[6:35:16 PM] Jeri Chee: Munchlax isn't that bad.
[6:35:17 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Machamp X
[6:35:23 PM] Dave (Konsept): [6:35 PM] Emilia:

<<< yeah but snorlax is a thingas is Munchlax
[6:35:28 PM] Jeri Chee: shrug
[6:35:29 PM] Emilia: roto you're fired
[6:35:30 PM] Mercutio :: Munchlax is very usable
[6:35:35 PM] Rotom-Epiu: ;
[6:35:41 PM] Dave (Konsept): Lapras and Absol could do at TL5 without breaking things
[6:35:42 PM] Jeri Chee: I'm not going to fight for this tooth and nail because ultimately it doesn't affect me.
[6:35:42 PM] Mercutio :: but Snorlax is gratuitously excellent
[6:35:54 PM] Jeri Chee: Yeah Snorlax is pretty amazing
[6:35:59 PM] Emilia: oh no I agree
[6:35:59 PM] Jeri Chee: Better than Clefable in many aspects.
[6:36:05 PM] Dave (Konsept): Snorlax is the only TL6 I want
[6:36:06 PM] Mercutio :: yup
[6:36:10 PM] Dave (Konsept): super cool
[6:36:12 PM] Emilia: snorlax is TL6 never change unless TL7 happens
[6:36:19 PM] Rotom-Epiu: The TL6 mons are all lame
[6:36:24 PM] Rotom-Epiu: I don't even want Metagross
[6:36:34 PM] Jeri Chee: Snorlax was like one of the first Pokémon to be bumped up because of how ridiculously good it iis
[6:36:35 PM] Lesbian Poro: Why is Hydreigon even TL6 lol?
[6:36:43 PM] Mercutio :: because pre fairy it was excellent
[6:36:45 PM] Rotom-Epiu: Gamefreak
[6:36:47 PM] Drunk Homosexual: Fairy wasn't a thing
[6:36:49 PM] Jeri Chee: Hydreigon should probably be TL5 now
[6:36:50 PM] Mercutio :: it was probably TL5/6 standard
[6:36:56 PM] Mercutio :: but now it's definitely TL5
[6:37:01 PM] Jeri Chee: TL4 is a little low for a pseudolegend.
[6:37:07 PM] Lesbian Poro: Yeah it is
[6:37:08 PM | Edited 6:37:17 PM] Miror: I wouldn't mind lower Hydreigon, but that's mainly because I'm sick of Zweilous c:
[6:37:10 PM] Emilia: TL4 Chomp!
[6:37:11 PM] Jeri Chee: And 1 3 5 is a clean track
[6:37:12 PM] Dave (Konsept): when gen V was first done, we did everything by analogy with existing mon because gen V's levels were silly
[6:37:13 PM] Mercutio :: cough Garchomp
[6:37:23 PM] Jeri Chee: Except Garchomp but Garchmop blows
[6:37:32 PM] Dave (Konsept): so Hydreigon was this gens equivalent of DNite and Salamence
[6:37:37 PM] Drunk Homosexual: can we have TL4 Chomp?

Somebody tl;dr this shit.

Aposteriori 02-14-2015 08:00 PM

Mawile TL2 => TL3

This one this to be talked about
Pikachu TL2 => TL3
Raichu TL4 => TL5

Allow for all of the moves to be included from the contest. If this is such a big deal, we need to backtrack and disallow gen I tutors to the gen VI crowd that evolves. They cannot possibly learn those moves. If we are under the premise that pokemon learn a move and retain the knowledge, these five are no different and it creates needless complicated rules to try and limit them.

Lil'twick 02-14-2015 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealthy (Post 668664)
Sneazey and I would like to propose that we do TL fixing first, as changing that would have large effects on this.

I agree with this. Fixing the levels themselves before fixing the acquisitions would be better, imo.

Mercutio 02-14-2015 08:04 PM

No, the changes needed to level acquisitions under the existing system aren't that major, but if you want to make changes to the base system itself you're wasting your time unless you completely overhaul it which will take an age. Get this done by mid March, then go nuts on the base.

Sneaze 02-14-2015 08:08 PM

No, Kush, you're thinking on it wrong. There's no point in fixing something, then altering something else that will cause the initial fix to need redone, no matter how simple said redo would actually be.

Mercutio 02-14-2015 08:10 PM

Yeah, I understand that and usually I would agree. But to be honest, you're the one doing it. It will take far far longer than this, which is long overdue. Do this thing, which is already happening, then do your thing, which isn't.

Connor 02-14-2015 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aposteriori (Post 668666)
Mawile TL2 => TL3

This one this to be talked about
Pikachu TL2 => TL3
Raichu TL4 => TL5

Allow for all of the moves to be included from the contest. If this is such a big deal, we need to backtrack and disallow gen I tutors to the gen VI crowd that evolves. They cannot possibly learn those moves. If we are under the premise that pokemon learn a move and retain the knowledge, these five are no different and it creates needless complicated rules to try and limit them.

As it stands there has been no substantial discussion of any method of implementing the contest Pikachu moves. I don't particularly care whether we do or not, but if we do Raichu will not have access to said moves. At the end of the day, this thread is for discussion about the current system, not what theoretically may well change if we implement proposals X, Y or Z. Please keep it that way.

DaveTheFishGuy 02-14-2015 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aposteriori (Post 668666)
Mawile TL2 => TL3

This one this to be talked about
Pikachu TL2 => TL3
Raichu TL4 => TL5

Allow for all of the moves to be included from the contest. If this is such a big deal, we need to backtrack and disallow gen I tutors to the gen VI crowd that evolves. They cannot possibly learn those moves. If we are under the premise that pokemon learn a move and retain the knowledge, these five are no different and it creates needless complicated rules to try and limit them.

The inclusion of Anabel's Espeon knowing Zap Cannon toward the end of the Battle Frontier arc shows that Gen I/II TMs were still around in 'anime-land'. If one of the main characters had taught an 'old' TM to a Pokémon and then later evolved it into a new evolution, they'd still have knowledge of the move.

Basically:
Rhydon can learn Zap Cannon.
Rhydon can evolve into Rhyperior.

Cosplay Pikachu can learn Icicle Crash.
Cosplay Pikachu cannot evolve into Raichu.

Mercutio 02-14-2015 08:17 PM

Yes, let's all look at what Dave has just posted, accept that it is completely and utterly ridiculous, and then accept that we all play a text based game about imaginary creatures that breathe fire and literal energy hearts and so it's fine for it to be ridiculous.

And then let us move on with our lives.

captainmisato 02-14-2015 08:58 PM

Could we talk about reducing some of the 2-stage mons from recent gens whose final evolutions happen at TL4 to be reduced to TL3? Things like Beartic, Aurorus, Clawitzer, Crustle, Gourgeist, Heliolisk, Jellicent, possibly Malamar, Meowstic, Scrafty...etc. I get internal consistency being a thing but most of them are really "TL3 good" rather than "TL4 good".

Kuvario 02-14-2015 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aposteriori (Post 668666)
Mawile TL2 => TL3

This one this to be talked about
Pikachu TL2 => TL3
Raichu TL4 => TL5


Allow for all of the moves to be included from the contest. If this is such a big deal, we need to backtrack and disallow gen I tutors to the gen VI crowd that evolves. They cannot possibly learn those moves. If we are under the premise that pokemon learn a move and retain the knowledge, these five are no different and it creates needless complicated rules to try and limit them.

I will debate this fiercely when I can muster up the effort.

Mostly because having Pichu till TL2-3 is a bad idea and I doubt Pikachu can hold its own against TL4 Pokemon, if you don't make it an uplevel Raichu under this plan.

Also seconding captain's argument about moving some TL4 two stagers to TL3.

Jerichi 02-14-2015 09:46 PM

I swear to god if I see one more post about illegal moves on a member of the Pikachu line I will ban you all.

Also I would not be opposed to talking about TL changes alongside level acquisitions as level acquisitions will take forever and TL changes will take much less time.

captainmisato 02-14-2015 09:47 PM

So for clarification, what sorts of changes to the TL system are people proposing?

Toyo 02-14-2015 10:12 PM

Reintroduction of TL7 and spreading out the TL4 'mon, because ATM TL4 is a massive power spike for trainers.

Mercutio 02-15-2015 08:10 AM

So this morning I was using this as a procrastination tool and actually despite the fact that I have absolutely no faith in Sneezey's ability to make anything happen at all (except for an awesome GM!), and the fact that I think you have to alter the points it takes to go up a level from about TL3 and up which would take ages, we need to do this:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyoyo3131 (Post 668696)
Reintroduction of TL7 and spreading out the TL4 'mon, because ATM TL4 is a massive power spike for trainers.

But for now some suggestions based on the current system. Suggested changes in bold. Went through Skype, the previous thread and other things, think I've included every previously suggested change (that I like lol)

Spoiler: show
Abomasnow: 3
Abra: 1
Absol: 5/6
Accelgor: 3
Aegislash: 4
Aerodactyl: 4 - why pick up Archeops when you can pick this up?
Aggron: 5
Aipom: 1
Alakazam: 4
Alomomola: 1
Altaria: 4
Amaura: 1
Ambipom: 3
Amoonguss: 3
Ampharos: 4
Anorith: 1
Arbok: 3
Arcanine: 4
Archen: 1
Archeops: 3
Ariados: 2
Armaldo: 4
Aromatisse: 3
Aron: 1
Audino: 2
Aurorus: 3
Avalugg: 4
Axew: 1
Azumarill: 4
Azurill: 1
Bagon: 1
Baltoy: 1
Banette: 3
Barbaracle: 4
Barboach: 1
Basculin: 1
Bastiodon: 4
Bayleef: 2
Beartic: 4
Beautifly: 1
Beedrill: 1
Beheeyem: 3
Beldum: 1
Bellossom: 3
Bellsprout: 1
Bibarel: 3
Bidoof: 1
Binacle: 1
Bisharp: 4
Blastoise: 4
Blaziken: 4
Blissey: 4
Blitzle: 1
Boldore: 2
Bonsly: 1
Bouffalant: 3
Braixen: 2
Braviary: 3
Breloom: 3
Bronzong: 4
Bronzor: 1
Budew: 1
Buizel: 1
Bulbasaur: 1
Buneary: 1
Bunnelby: 1
Bergmite: 1
Burmy: 1
Butterfree: 1
Cacnea: 1
Cacturne: 3
Camerupt: 3
Carbink: 2
Carnivine: 2
Carracosta: 3
Carvanha: 1
Cascoon: 1
Castform: 2
Caterpie: 1
Chandelure: 4
Chansey: 2
Charizard: 4
Charmander: 1
Charmeleon: 2
Chatot: 1
Cherrim: 2
Cherubi: 1
Chespin: 1
Chesnaught: 4
Chikorita: 1
Chimchar: 1
Chimecho: 2
Chinchou: 1
Chingling: 1
Cinccino: 3
Clamperl: 1
Clauncher: 1
Clawitzer: 4
Claydol: 4
Clefable: 5
Clefairy: 2
Cleffa: 1
Cloyster: 3
Cofagrigus: 3
Combee: 1
Combusken: 2
Conkeldurr: 4
Corphish: 1
Corsola: 1
Cottonee: 1
Cradily: 4
Cranidos: 1
Crawdaunt: 3
Croagunk: 1
Crobat: 4
Croconaw: 2
Crustle: 4
Cryogonal: 3
Cubchoo: 1
Cubone: 1
Cyndaquil: 1
Darmanitan: 3
Darumaka: 1
Dedenne: 1
Deerling: 1
Deino: 1
Delcatty: 2
Delphox: 4
Delibird: 2
Dewgong: 3
Dewott: 2
Diggersby: 3
Diglett: 1
Ditto: 1
Dodrio: 3
Doduo: 1
Donphan: 3
Doublade: 2
Dragalge: 4
Dragonair: 4
Dragonite: 6
Drapion: 4
Dratini: 2
Drifblim: 3
Drifloon: 1
Drilbur: 1
Drowzee: 1
Druddigon: 3
Ducklett: 1
Dugtrio: 3
Dunsparce: 1
Duosion: 3
Durant: 3
Dusclops: 4
Dusknoir: 5
Duskull: 1
Dustox: 1
Dwebble: 1
Eelektrik: 2
Eelektross: 5
Eevee: 1
Ekans: 1
Electabuzz: 3
Electivire: 5
Electrike: 1
Electrode: 3
Elekid: 1
Elgyem: 1
Emboar: 4
Emolga: 2
Empoleon: 4
Escavalier: 3
Espeon: 3
Espurr: 1
Excadrill: 4
Exeggcute: 1
Exeggutor: 3
Exploud: 4
Farfetch'd: 1
Fearow: 2
Feebas: 1
Fennekin: 1
Feraligatr: 4
Ferroseed: 1
Ferrothorn: 3
Finneon: 1
Flaaffy: 2
Flabébé: 1
Flareon: 3
Fletchling: 1
Fletchinder: 2
Floatzel: 3
Floette: 2
Florges: 3
Flygon: 5
Foongus: 1
Forretress: 4
Fraxure: 2
Frillish: 1
Froakie: 1
Frogadier: 2
Froslass: 4
Furfrou: 2
Furret: 3
Gabite: 2
Gallade: 5
Galvantula: 3
Garbodor: 3
Garchomp: 4 - Concept and I had an argument about Garchomp/Flygon and I now agree with him that they should be 4/5 respectively, though not for the reasons he wants them to be.
Gardevoir: 5
Gastly: 1
Gastrodon: 3
Gengar: 6
Geodude: 1
Gible: 1
Gigalith: 3 It pains me but yeah Gigalith is not stellar
Girafarig: 2
Glaceon: 3
Glalie: 3
Glameow: 1
Gligar: 1
Gliscor: 3
Gloom: 2
Gogoat: 3
Gourgeist: 3 - because everyone is saying it but actually I know nothing about Gourgeist
Golbat: 3
Goldeen: 1
Golduck: 4
Golem: 4
Golett: 2
Golurk: 5
Goodra: 5
Goomy: 1
Gorebyss: 3
Gothita: 1
Gothitelle: 3
Gothorita: 2
Granbull: 4
Graveler: 3
Greninja: 4
Grimer: 1
Grotle: 2
Grovyle: 2
Growlithe: 1
Grumpig: 3
Gulpin: 1
Gurdurr: 3
Gyarados: 4
Happiny: 1
Hariyama: 3
Haunter: 3
Hawlucha: 2
Haxorus: 4
Heatmor: 3
Heliolisk: 3
Helioptile: 1
Heracross: 2
Herdier: 2
Hippopotas: 1
Hippowdon: 4
Hitmonchan: 2
Hitmonlee: 2
Hitmontop: 2
Honchkrow: 3
Honedge: 1
Hoothoot: 1
Hoppip: 1
Horsea: 1
Houndoom: 4
Houndour: 1
Huntail: 3
Hydreigon: 5
Hypno: 3
Igglybuff: 1
Illumise: 2
Infernape: 4
Inkay: 1
Ivysaur: 2
Jellicent: 4
Jigglypuff: 2
Jolteon: 3
Joltik: 1
Jumpluff: 3
Jynx: 3
Kabuto: 1
Kabutops: 3
Kadabra: 2
Kakuna: 1
Kangaskhan: 3
Karrablast: 1
Kecleon: 2
Kingdra: 4/5
Kingler: 3
Kirlia: 3
Klang: 2
Klefki: 2
Klink: 1
Klinklang: 3
Koffing: 1
Krabby: 1
Kricketot: 1
Kricketune: 1
Krokorok: 3
Krookodile: 4
Lairon: 3
Lampent: 3
Lanturn: 4
Lapras: 6 - It really is that good
Larvesta: 1
Larvitar: 1
Leafeon: 3
Leavanny: 3
Ledian: 2
Ledyba: 1
Lickilicky: 5
Lickitung: 3
Liepard: 2
Lileep: 1
Lilligant: 3
Lillipup: 1
Linoone: 3
Litleo: 1
Litwick: 1
Lombre: 3
Lopunny: 3
Lotad: 1
Loudred: 2
Lucario: 4
Ludicolo: 5
Lumineon: 3
Lunatone: 2
Luvdisc: 1
Luxio: 2
Luxray: 4
Machamp: 4
Machoke: 3
Machop: 1
Magby: 1
Magcargo: 3
Magikarp: 1
Magmar: 3
Magmortar: 5
Magnemite: 1
Magneton: 3
Magnezone: 5
Makuhita: 1
Malamar: 4
Mamoswine: 5
Mandibuzz: 3
Manectric: 4
Mankey: 1
Mantine: 3
Mantyke: 1
Maractus: 1
Mareep: 1
Marill: 2
Marowak: 4
Marshtomp: 2
Masquerain: 2
Mawile: 3
Medicham: 3
Meditite: 1
Meganium: 3
Meowstic: 4
Meowth: 1
Metagross: 5
Metang: 3
Metapod: 1
Mienfoo: 1
Mienshao: 3
Mightyena: 2
Milotic: 3
Miltank: 3
Mime Jr.: 1
Minccino: 1
Minun: 1
Misdreavus: 2
Mismagius: 5
Monferno: 2
Mothim: 2
Mr. Mime: 4
Mudkip: 1
Muk: 4
Munchlax: 2
Munna: 1
Murkrow: 1
Musharna: 3
Natu: 1
Nidoking: 5
Nidoqueen: 5
Nidoran (F): 1
Nidoran (M): 1
Nidorina: 3
Nidorino: 3
Nincada: 1
Ninetales: 4
Ninjask: 2
Noibat: 1
Noivern: 4
Noctowl: 3
Nosepass: 1
Numel: 1
Nuzleaf: 2
Octillery: 4
Oddish: 1
Omanyte: 1
Omastar: 3
Onix: 2
Oshawott: 1
Pachirisu: 1
Pancham: 1
Pangoro: 4
Palpitoad: 3
Panpour: 1
Pansage: 1
Pansear: 1
Paras: 1
Parasect: 3
Patrat: 1
Pawniard: 1
Pelipper: 3
Persian: 3
Petilil: 1
Phanpy: 1
Phione: 2
Pichu: 1
Pidgeot: 3
Pidgeotto: 2
Pidgey: 1
Pidove: 1
Pignite: 2
Pikachu: 2
Piloswine: 3
Pineco: 1
Pinsir: 2
Piplup: 1
Phantump: 1
Plusle: 1
Politoed: 4
Poliwag: 1
Poliwhirl: 2
Poliwrath: 4
Ponyta: 1
Poochyena: 1
Porygon: 1
Porygon2: 3
Porygon-Z: 5
Primeape: 4
Prinplup: 2
Probopass: 3
Psyduck: 1
Pumpkaboo: 1
Pupitar: 3
Purrloin: 1
Purugly: 2
Pyroar: 2
Quagsire: 3
Quilava: 2
Qwilfish: 1
Quilladin: 2
Raichu: 4
Ralts: 1
Rampardos: 4
Rapidash: 3
Raticate: 3
Rattata: 1
Relicanth: 2
Remoraid: 1
Reuniclus: 4
Rhydon: 4
Rhyhorn: 2
Rhyperior: 5
Riolu: 1
Roggenrola: 1
Roselia: 2
Roserade: 4
Rotom: 3
Rufflet: 1
Sableye: 3
Salamence: 5
Samurott: 4
Sandile: 1
Sandshrew: 1
Sandslash: 3
Sawk: 2
Sawsbuck: 3
Scatterbug: 1
Sceptile: 4
Scizor: 4
Scolipede: 4
Scrafty: 4
Scraggy: 1
Scyther: 1
Seadra: 2
Seaking: 3
Sealeo: 3
Seedot: 1
Seel: 1
Seismitoad: 4
Sentret: 1
Serperior: 3
Servine: 2
Seviper: 2
Sewaddle: 1
Sharpedo: 3
Shedinja: 2
Shelgon: 3
Shellder: 1
Shellos: 1
Shelmet: 1
Shieldon: 1
Shiftry: 3
Shinx: 1
Shroomish: 1
Shuckle: 2
Shuppet: 1
Sigilyph: 2
Silcoon: 1
Simipour: 3
Simisage: 3
Simisear: 3
Skarmory: 3
Skiddo: 1
Skiploom: 2
Skitty: 1
Skorupi: 1
Skrelp: 1
Skuntank: 3
Slaking: 4
Slakoth: 1
Sliggoo: 3
Slowbro: 4
Slowking: 4
Slowpoke: 1
Slugma: 1
Slurpuff: 3
Smeargle: 1
Smoochum: 1
Sneasel: 2
Snivy: 1
Snorlax: 6
Snorunt: 1
Snover: 1
Snubbull: 1
Solosis: 1
Solrock: 2
Spearow: 1
Spewpa: 1
Spheal: 1
Spinarak: 1
Spinda: 1
Spiritomb: 2
Spoink: 1
Spritzee: 1
Squirtle: 1
Stantler: 2
Staraptor: 3
Staravia: 2
Starly: 1
Starmie: 4
Staryu: 1
Steelix: 4
Stoutland: 3 ... 2?
Stunfisk: 2
Stunky: 1
Sudowoodo: 2
Sunflora: 2
Sunkern: 1
Surskit: 1
Swablu: 1
Swadloon: 2
Swalot: 3
Swampert: 4
Swanna: 3
Swellow: 3
Swinub: 1
Swirlix: 1
Swoobat: 3
Sylveon: 3
Taillow: 1
Talonflame: 3
Tangela: 1
Tangrowth: 4
Tauros: 4 - I actually think it's deserving of TL5 but I think I'll get shouted down lol. Bouffy to TL3.
Teddiursa: 1
Tentacool: 1
Tentacruel: 4
Tepig: 1
Throh: 2
Timburr: 1
Tirtouga: 1
Togekiss: 4
Togepi: 1
Togetic: 3
Torchic: 1
Torkoal: 2
Torterra: 4
Totodile: 1
Toxicroak: 4
Tranquill: 2
Trapinch: 1
Treecko: 1
Trevenant: 4
Tropius: 3
Trubbish: 1
Turtwig: 1
Tympole: 1
Tynamo: 1
Typhlosion: 4
Tyranitar: 5
Tyrantrum: 3 - it's really not that good guys
Tyrogue: 1
Tyrunt: 1
Umbreon: 3
Unfezant: 3
Unown: 1
Ursaring: 4
Vanillish: 2
Vanillite: 1
Vanilluxe: 3
Vaporeon: 3
Venipede: 1
Venomoth: 4 - not sure one this one
Venonat: 1
Venusaur: 4
Vespiquen: 1
Vibrava: 3
Victreebel: 3
Vigoroth: 2
Vileplume: 3
Vivillion: 1
Volbeat: 2
Volcarona: 4
Voltorb: 1
Vullaby: 1
Vulpix: 1
Wailmer: 1
Wailord: 4
Walrein: 4
Wartortle: 2
Watchog: 2
Weavile: 3
Weedle: 1
Weepinbell: 2
Weezing: 4
Whimsicott: 3
Whirlipede: 2
Whiscash: 3
Whismur: 1
Wigglytuff: 5
Wingull: 1
Wobbuffet: 2
Woobat: 1
Wooper: 1
Wormadam: 2
Wurmple: 1
Wynaut: 1
Xatu: 3
Yamask: 1
Yanma: 1
Yanmega: 3
Zangoose: 2
Zebstrika: 3
Zigzagoon: 1
Zoroark: 3
Zorua: 1
Zubat : 1
Zweilous: 3


I think I've ended up with TL6 making a net gain of like 1, TL5 making net gain and then mostly everything moves down a bit. Idk I stopped counting after a while.

I'm sure I've missed stuff and am, sadly, not infallible so feel free to disagree!

Emi 02-15-2015 08:17 AM

Oh God Kush could you maybe do something to make that more readable my eyes were ready to burrow out of my skull.

Why is Chandy still TL4 when we all know Chandy has a shallow movepool for a Fire-type and a pretty bad typing? It's only real niche is Burn abuse (because its the only Pokemon to get unlimited Hex and Fire) but in everything else its pretty outclassed.

Concept 02-15-2015 08:23 AM

>Spreading out of TL4

Honestly a fair amount of TL4 wouldn't break TL3, and some TL3 (the eeveelutions for starters) would in turn be fine at TL2. As Kush noted in the long ass-chat Roto posted, the general trend of level changes should be downwards. No point shifting too much stuff up and telling joe average ASBer he can't play with his favourite for another year while he levels again.

Mercutio 02-15-2015 08:35 AM

Bold and limed for you, blaze.

Yeah I mean basically the ideal TL structure is TL1 as it is now, Tl2 basically as it is now with a couple of anomalies kicked upwards, then TL3-4 get mixed up and spread over three levels, current TL5 and 6 then get moved around to fit the new structure and give you TL1-7.

Ideally, every single level up nets the trainer a bonus i.e. a Mega Stone, a free level up slot, the ability to buy legend challenges etc.

Emi 02-15-2015 08:36 AM

Anyways to give most of my input, Ghosts:

Gengar to TL6. One of the best Pokemon the League yadda yadda yadda
Mismagius to TL5. It was probably TL4 before Gen VI but it got Dazzling Gleam and that honestly was a pretty big improvement since its no longer insta-boned by Dark.
Sableye to TL4. It could probably stay at TL3 because of its size but its still seriously good and I want to promote people getting Spiritomb. xp
Froslass to TL3. Bad typing, mediocre movepool, really small size. It's not much better than Glalie in all honesty and Glalie is being suggested for TL3 anyways.
Rotom to TL2. Rotom is completely shallow and the only thing that saves it at all is its typing. But that's it and none of its typings make it at all broken or really scary to most Pokemon.
Chandelure to TL3. See above.
Aegislash to TL3. Horrible typing with the combination of having a movepuddle makes Aegislash awful. It's weak to 4 common types and it shouldn't be difficult for many TL2-3 Pokemon to handle.
Gourgeist to TL3. Mainly a turret, its a pretty good TL3 in all honesty I just don't see it at TL4 level.

That's my input really.

Aposteriori 02-15-2015 10:07 AM

Bronzong could be suggested to drop to TL3. It hardly has enough to cover two of his four weakness. Its movepool is fairly shallow in comparison to a Metang.

Zelphon 02-15-2015 10:47 AM

Aegislash - TL4
A bad typing mixed in with a bad movepool, I just don't really see it being a good pick at higher levels with its only real boon being that its a freaking sword which is the only reason I'm not suggesting TL3

Gigalith - TL3
It's a turret with a pretty shallow movepool, but what's worse is that not only is it a turret, it's a turret with an awful defensive typing.

Dunsparce - TL2
Honestly it's good enough for it, it has a legit movepool for TL1 and a decent enough SC at that.

Stantler - TL3
It has ALOT of support options and its fairly adept at abusing the abundence of smaller pokemon in the TL2 and under section, with even flying/levitating pokemon having to worry about hoof abuse due to its access to gravity.

Sableye - TL5
A great movepool and amazing typing make Sableye pretty beastly and honestly people put way to much weight in the size of a pokemon. It's mega is also pretty damn cray.

Noivern - TL3
It's honestly not all that great when compared to the other Dragon/Flying types and the lower levels should really have more Dragon options :x

Altaria - TL3
LOs pls

Stealthy 02-15-2015 11:00 AM

Haxorus and Magnezone both to TL4. Mamoswine as well perhaps, though I'd like Connor's input on that. Fraxure then certainly deserves TL2 but I could see Piloswine and Magneton still wanting TL3 but eh.

Druddigon up to TL4. It's a pretty good pokemon. Deserves better than TL3.

If Gengar goes to TL6, consider Haunter for TL4. Similarly if Flygon goes to 6, consider Vibrava at 4. Kangaskhan, Quagsire, and Gliscor all can go from TL3 to TL4. I think we can consider moving Honchkrow to TL4, if only to separate it from Mandibuzz. Mandi certainly has some tricks of her own and is a pretty good pokemon, but idk. Just feel like a split is a good idea.

Sealeo to TL2. Boldore to TL2. Gurdurr to TL2. Palpitoad to TL2. Krokorok to TL2. Lampent to TL2. This is just a whole lot of fixing evolutionary chains from being 1-3-4 to 1-2-4. Unova has a bunch of weird ones like that. There are some that deserve 1-3-4 but these guys are not them.

Amoonguss to TL2 because oh god the bad. Dodrio to TL2 because oh god the bad. Zebstrika to TL2 because oh god the bad. Parasect also potentially TL2.

Elemental Monkeys could also go for TL2. I mean, I think they're okay at TL3 but idk, I'd consider TL2 for them.

Jiggly/Clefairy to TL3. Chansey to TL3. Heatmor to TL3.

Shuckle, Sneasel, Delibird, Bronzor, Audino, Emolga, Dedenne, Furfrou, Vivillon, Carbink, and Klefki all need to go from TL2 to TL1.

Rhyhorn and Dunspace then go to TL2.

That covers most of what I have to say that I don't think has been said yet. Later I'll go through on the other suggestions that have been made.


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