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Jerichi 06-04-2014 06:00 PM

Type Energy - Consultation
 
For a number of years now, our policy on type energy has been rather lax. While we've generally advertized basic standards, we have never formalized the standards. With the changes in health and energy and the shifting of the meta, we've decided it's time to lay down standard guidelines in order to give battlers a better idea of what their type energy tanks are like and to (possibly) make ref's lives easier.

At the moment, there are two main proposals that have been brought up by LOs, though we may consider others.

The first is as follows:

Quote:

Normal type pokémon (nerfed): 1 HB of off type energy

Normal type pokémon (not nerfed): 2 Ice Beams of off type energy

Fauxmiliar (i.e. gained familiarity) pokémon: 2 Blizzards of off type energy

Familiar pokémon: 2 HB of off type energy

Generic pokémon: 2 Ice Beams of off type energy
The second is a little more complicated:

Quote:

Reed-Style unlimited pools overall that work like normal energy in that you can't strain them without running out for a handful of rounds. Type energy eventually will restore and you can get off another move. Pokémon can freely use low-power attacks of off-type moves, but if you were to order two Blizzards from a Water type, they might need a few round before they can use another Icy Wind.
In addition, there will likely be another rule added to further define familiarity, and though largely an accessory to this discussion, it is good to keep in mind for balance purposes.

Quote:

We define familiarity as both more type energy and better ability to use a type, and therefore less tiring (not more energy use though). STAB attacks are the least tiring, familiar attacks are slightly less so, and off-type, non-familiar are the most. It'd balance off-type-typespam a bit and make familiarity more meaningful.
Discuss.

Mercutio 06-04-2014 06:10 PM

It should be noted that we're thinking of erasing the concept of Psychic familiarity and just giving telekinesis to everything.

Schadenfreude 06-04-2014 06:12 PM

Although I like the former, how we determine which Normals are nerfed and which are not? What is the criterion? Pure Normals (i.e. Lickilicky, Snorlax, Kecleon) are nerfed but dual-typed are not? Because I don't see why Helioptile or Pyroar should even have this Normal nerf when all their Normal-typing actually gives them is an additional Fighting weakness. A burden more than any sort of boon. I don't know; I personally found the concept of Normal-nerf as an arbitrary way of balancing the meta and have discovered it to be inconsistently reffed. For example, should a Chatot suffer from the same nerf as a Girafarig? What about a Chansey?

And not all pure Normals are the same. For example, Meowth does not have the same move ocean as Snorlax, and Furret is no Lickilicky. Yet a Watchog in capable hands can be more deadly than a Wigglytuff. Can we arbitrarily determine which Normals should be nerfed and which should be not? After all, we have our our personal preferences and opinions. I'm of the opinion that we remove the Normal nerf, but since I'm probably in the minority, could we at least devise some more methodical methods of ascertaining "OP" Normals from things like Chatot?

Apropros the second system, one possible problem is that junior refs will find it difficult to ref. A lot of refs struggle with idle dodge and with handling normal energy exhaustion. I'm not sure, thus, that this second system would be implemented deftly. Perhaps it can be an opt-in system, perhaps for battlers who would like it and/or a facet only seen in Gym Matches and such. When experienced refs are comfortable with reffing this paradigm.

Mercutio 06-04-2014 06:14 PM

Normal SC has been rewritten to say that pure Nornals are nerfed. Duals aren't unless stated.

EmeraldGoblin 06-04-2014 06:15 PM

The first one seems to make the most sense and easier to implement.

The normal nerf is not relevant to all normal types. Maybe an individual nerf for specific pokemon would be better. Off the top of my head: Clefable, Wigglytuff, Absol, Dragonite, and Snorlax deserve an nerf to offtype.

On a different note, with these increments in offtype, the Mozz badge needs to be nerfed from 2x increase in offtype to 1.5x increase in offtype. Furthermore, I highly dislike the loophole where you can drop moves via sigs to the be eligible for mozz. I think that badge should work solely based on the pokemon's natural movepool vs abusing a mechanic that only a select few can use at all.

Schadenfreude 06-04-2014 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercutio (Post 596763)
Normal SC has been rewritten to say that pure Nornals are nerfed. Duals aren't unless stated.

Yes, but I really don't think Furret is anywhere as useful as Salamence, yet one is nerfed and the other is not. A Persian isn't in the same league as Snorlax, after all. Some Pure Normals are actually worse than their Dual counterparts.

Emi 06-04-2014 06:19 PM

For the second one, I think some guidelines will have to be put in place for newer members. But I'm leaning towards it, if only because it makes Pokemon like Spiritomb a lot better. How would Normal nerfing work under that system, however?

Jerichi 06-04-2014 06:20 PM

Normal Pokémon would regain type energy more slowly and would be able to only use maybe one big attack before having to wait a good while for another.

EmeraldGoblin 06-04-2014 06:22 PM

Would the ref remind the trainer when the offtype is regenerated?

Schadenfreude 06-04-2014 06:23 PM

For one, I don't think Delcatty should be nerfed. Look at its movepool. Absol has twice its offtype. Persian isn't that much better, although the Dark specialty does help.

Emi 06-04-2014 06:23 PM

That's what I was going to suggest, otherwise you might get the weird issue of being able to pretty much cycle through off-type. I'd ask however that other moveocean behemoths be nerfed in this way as well, but that becomes pretty subjective.

I think it also lends itself a little better to "fauxmiliarity" in that a Pokemon with an unusual amount of moves for a type might be a little better off. So I'd like number 2.

Jerichi 06-04-2014 06:23 PM

It'd regen at a fairly regular rate, depending on the familiarity with the type.

Additionally, would more experienced refs be interested in having it as an option for reffing type energy?

DaveTheFishGuy 06-04-2014 06:24 PM

>Absol has twice its offtype

But there aren't 22 types.

Schadenfreude 06-04-2014 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy (Post 596772)
>Absol has twice its offtype

But there aren't 22 types.

Hyperbole, my friend. I dare you to say that Delcatty is good. I dare you. :)

EmeraldGoblin 06-04-2014 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerichi (Post 596771)
It'd regen at a fairly regular rate, depending on the familiarity with the type.

Additionally, would more experienced refs be interested in having it as an option for reffing type energy?

what qualifies as experienced ref?

DaveTheFishGuy 06-04-2014 06:26 PM

Delcatty isn't great but it's far from unusable. Just because it's outclassed by Persian (not to mention bipedal Normals) doesn't make it utter crap.

Amusingly a quick count reveals that Delcatty gets 11 types to play with while Absol gets 12 (plus unlimited Dark).

Kindrindra 06-04-2014 06:27 PM

The second option sounds altogether more fun to battle under. Sounds a liiiiittle challenging to ref, but I'm sure adapting wouldn't be too hard. The mechanic isn't unheard of in the gaming scene- In fact, it's basically somewhere between a MP-style resource and a Limit Break-style resource, so it should be easy to factor in, even with hard math.

The one concern I have (under either solution) is: What about pokemon which get a lot of moves of a type, but don't have familiarity or anything of the like? Kangaskhan with Fighting? Electabuzz with Fighting? Gligar with Bug? Or would those fall under fauxmiliarity?



EDIT: Also, I'll admit that I'm a bit of a fan of how iirc Kairne does it- Pokemon with less off-types will have more energy(/faster regen) of the types they do have access to, while Pokemon with more off-types will have less(/slower regen) of each type. I think this would serve as a valid way to put the subjective issue of 'movepool behemoths' to rest once and for all.

Jerichi 06-04-2014 06:30 PM

Yeah, that's probably a good assumption.

DaveTheFishGuy 06-04-2014 06:32 PM

Honestly if you're not giving Electabuzz more Fighting energy or Toxicroak more Dark energy you're probably doing something wrong.

Schadenfreude 06-04-2014 06:41 PM

Personally, I tend to give you "fauxmilliarity" if you learn five or more attacking moves of that type. It's the system that Rangeet gave me, and it has worked quite well so far.

Stealthy 06-04-2014 06:42 PM

In the first system, will we be more stringent on "weakened" usages of moves? Because you see "has used one Ice Beam, and has enough off type for a weakened Ice Beam" all over the place, which is fine in the system as is because a big point of the normal nerf is that normals can only use one Ice Beam while others get to use two.

I like the idea of the second system, but I'm unsure of how well it'd be in practice. Certainly makes switching even more reliable of a tactic. For starters, what we think the rough parameters ought to be would be nice.

Also, gonna take the opposite stance of EG here on normal nerf and say (tentatively, not gonna pretend that I've gone through them all), that rather than only making some normals nerfed, to make nerf the default for them (and certainly a few others) and then find normals who really don't need the nerf (NOT Delcatty) and lift it from them specifically. 'cause here's the thing. Granbull? Mediocre when he was pure normal, but still viable, similar to Delcatty. Normal nerf lifted, Granbull viability skyrockets. Yes, Fairy typing helps that as well, but regardless, that nerf lifting on mediocre pokemon will help them... but it's better if we lift it for the unusables, not those who are merely outclassed.

DaveTheFishGuy 06-04-2014 06:49 PM

Yeah Stealthy's idea is probably best for Normal Nerf. Nerfing all pure-Normals and then finding ones that don't really need it is easier than going through every single Pokémon and imposing the Nerf. Because yeah, Absol, Nidoking and Dragonite have great movepools but it's such a slippery slope that people are bound to go 'Well if Tyranitar isn't nerfed, why is Dragonite?' and it's not even funny.

Also:
>Pioneer system that includes granting more energy if a 'mon learns five or more moves of a type
>Rangeet takes credit

All of my sads.

EmeraldGoblin 06-04-2014 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealthy (Post 596780)
Also, gonna take the opposite stance of EG here on normal nerf and say (tentatively, not gonna pretend that I've gone through them all), that rather than only making some normals nerfed, to make nerf the default for them (and certainly a few others) and then find normals who really don't need the nerf (NOT Delcatty) and lift it from them specifically. 'cause here's the thing. Granbull? Mediocre when he was pure normal, but still viable, similar to Delcatty. Normal nerf lifted, Granbull viability skyrockets. Yes, Fairy typing helps that as well, but regardless, that nerf lifting on mediocre pokemon will help them... but it's better if we lift it for the unusables, not those who are merely outclassed.

this is the same thing... but in reverse XD

it would be easier to do the other way though... including the nerf on the specific pokemon rather than a default nerf so when refs/trainers reference the pokemon they know they have the nerf explicitly stated.

Schadenfreude 06-04-2014 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy (Post 596781)
Also:
>Pioneer system that includes granting more energy if a 'mon learns five or more moves of a type
>Rangeet takes credit

All of my sads.

You came up with that? Go figure, considering that you're Dave. Well, it's a great system and credit goes to you. It's what I use in all my matches and is something that already assumed to be codified, if anything.

Kindrindra 06-04-2014 06:52 PM

So to confirm, pokemon who don't need to be nerfed would just have it noted in their SC that '___ is unaffected by the normal-type nerf' or something to that effect, right?


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