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-   -   Animé Evidence Thread (or "Muyo hates everything thread") (http://forums.upnetwork.net/showthread.php?t=5562)

Mercutio 03-13-2014 08:39 PM

Animé Evidence Thread (or "Muyo hates everything thread")
 
This thread serves as a repository of examples of where current ASB policy i.e. Attack Descriptions, Species Characteristics do not match with the animé and a place to discuss whether this should result in a policy change.

Due to the difficulties of accurately mimicking a children's cartoon, we cannot always guarantee that we are going to be able to do what the animé does. Sometimes, the animé is wildly inconsistent i.e. existence of Abilities, Palpitoad size. Sometimes, what the animé did in 1997* is not the same as what it does in 2014 i.e. Light Screen, Seismic Toss. Sometimes, what the animé does completely defies the laws of physics and/or is patently ridiculous i.e. levitating Chimchar, Thunder Armour**. Sometimes, we've deliberately written something which has no basis in the animé, perhaps using in-game evidence, in order to achieve an objective other than mimicking the animé perfectly i.e. improving less utilised pokémon, diversifying the potential battle strategies available to trainers.

Please use this thread to note instances where what we do in the ASB is either completely out of synch with the animé or would be better served by using a different animé interpretation to the one currently used.


In order for us to take your post under consideration for a policy change, you must fulfil the following criteria.

1) Provide links to a screen cap showing animé evidence and/or provide links to a video showing animé evidence (please provide us with a time stamp)
2) Provide links to the Bulbapedia article for the move, pokémon etc. in question
3) Explain the in game effect of the move in question
4) Briefly note the differences between what we do and what the animé does

If you do not fulfil these criteria your post will be ignored.


Before making a post, please consider the following questions:

a) Is the change I'm suggesting an isolated example i.e. Cilan's levitating Stunfisk?
b) Is the change I'm suggesting something which will cause a significant benefit to the league other than making us more consistent with the animé?
c) Does the discrepancy that I've noticed mean that we should have two different interpretations of something i.e. fiery and watery Dragon Rage or does it require that we choose one i.e. Treecko with or without Overgrow?

If you think that the answer to any of these questions is relevant, note it in your post.

We reserve the right to ignore the animé if we judge it to be to the benefit of the ASB.

Happy YouTubing!


*Oldddddd
** No

Schadenfreude 03-15-2014 08:01 PM

The Case of Inkay and Ink
 
Kush, thank you for setting up this thread. I guess I will be the one to take the thread's cherry. Here is my case. Please feel free to ignore it if you think it's ludicrous. I won't mind!


--
1) Provide links to a screen cap showing animé evidence and/or provide links to a video showing animé evidence (please provide us with a time stamp)

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/th..._Ink_Spray.png

Inkay fires an inky beam at Pikachu which inflicts significant damage and severely limits Pikachu's eyesight to the point that Pikachu cannot open his eyes; Ash needs to provide extended instructions which specifically detail location and coordinations for Pikachu.

This move sounds a lot like Octazooka. Furthermore, other Pokemon beside Octillery (such as Horsea and Sableye) learn Octazooka, which suggests that the move has distribution outside of the Remoraid line.


Source:
Pokémon the Series: XY [Episode 8] Grooming Furfrou!

Time Stamp: 13:52 to 15:51



2) Provide links to the Bulbapedia article for the move, pokémon etc. in question

Quote:

Originally Posted by BW and FR/LG Description of Octazooka
The user attacks by spraying ink at the target's face or eyes. This may also lower the target's accuracy.

Bulbapedia Source: Octazooka

Source: James's Inkay / Inkay (its name in multiple languages refers to either squids or ink)


3) Explain the in game effect of the move in question

The user shoots out ink at the opponent, dropping their accuracy which is analogous to limiting the opponent's vision. The in-game effects heavily implies that it's ink that is similar to the one seen used by Inkay in the anime.

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/7/7e/Octazooka.png

Whether this should mean adding a SC-esque move like Ampharos's glowing tail or just giving Inkay Octazooka via this page, that decision is for the LOs to potentially decide.


4) Briefly note the differences between what we do and what the animé does

We do not give Inkay the ability to shoot ink. Now, since XY is still quite nascent, we do not know if this is an isolated example. However, unlike Jetpack Larvesta or levitating Stunfisk, this case is not as ludicrous. The name "Inkay" implies "ink", and giving Inkay some sort of ink squirting ability will not significantly change the ASB, as Jetpack!Larvesta or Levitating!Stunfisk might have.

Giving Inkay the ability to use Octazooka or some sort of ink beam would increase Inkay's usability in a new metagame which does not favour Dark-types. It will give a new life to a Pokemon who already must compete with other Darks and Psychics for a squad place. Furthermore, this change will also bring us closer to the games and the anime's intention when they gave Inkay that name.

Mercutio 03-15-2014 08:11 PM

Randomly giving it Octazooka is not going to happen unless James orders Inkay to use Octazooka. But given that we recently rewrote Malamar to give it flight I think we can swing ink in the eyes for passive blinding without damage. The animé's interpretation of what deals damage is questionable.

Excellent use of the thread!

DaveTheFishGuy 03-15-2014 08:17 PM

Yeah thanks Schaden. But personally I don't think it looks like Pikachu too much damage, he was just surprised by being hit in the face rather than taking any noticeable damage. Given that it looks nothing like previous incarnations of Octazooka, I'd be inclined to go with Kush and say this is a species ink spray. Though it's ridiculous that something based on a squid gets no Water attacks.

I like how Malamar is slowly becoming better and better.

Schadenfreude 03-15-2014 08:21 PM

Sounds good to me! When I was typing the post, I was getting a feeling that this would be a SC-esque thing along the lines of Ampharos than an actual move, considering that James didn't actually order anything.

And I agree, Dave. GameFreak baffles everybody when they give Malamar no Water-based moves. At least the anime recognises Inkay's namesake, lol

EmeraldGoblin 03-29-2014 02:36 PM

1) Provide links to a screen cap showing animé evidence and/or provide links to a video showing animé evidence (please provide us with a time stamp)
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/1/...one_Rush_2.png http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/0/..._Bone_Rush.png
2) Provide links to the Bulbapedia article for the move, pokémon etc. in question

Bone Rush

3) Explain the in game effect of the move in question
Its a multi hit ground move that can hit the target 1-5 times for 25 BP each time.

4) Briefly note the differences between what we do and what the animé does
ASB does bone rush as a typeless multi hit move whereas the anime seems to do it as ground type, considering the expression on the geodude after Riley's Lucario used bone rush.

Red Panda 03-29-2014 03:32 PM

Ambipom's Hands
 
1) Provide links to a screen cap showing animé evidence and/or provide links to a video showing animé evidence (please provide us with a time stamp)

http://i.imgur.com/D8K7M3k.png

Meditite attacks Ambipom with a Drain Punch. Ambipom blocks the Punch, and doesn't show any signs of being significantly hurt by the attack.

Bulbapedia Page of Episode

2) Provide links to the Bulbapedia article for the move, pokémon etc. in question

Dawn's Ambipom / Ambipom

There is no move in game that acts like this.

3) Explain the in game effect of the move in question

There is no move in game that acts like this.

4) Briefly note the differences between what we do and what the animé does

We currently have nothing in Ambipom's SC regarding this use of the tail/hands.

This is the only case in the anime that shows the use of Ambipom's hands like this, but it wouldn't be that difficult to include in Ambipom's SC that for a move it can block some physical attacks, receiving less damage from the attack. This is by no means broken, and simply makes Ambipom a better close up fighter. And Ambipom isn't all that great anyways.

Schadenfreude 04-03-2014 02:22 PM

Case of Leech Seed and Grass Pokémon
 
I debated whether to post this suggestion in the Attack Rewrites thread or this thread, but I ultimately opted to post here. Primarily, my reasoning is that this thread is a more official venue for submitting potential changes, and this change is one which could have a major effect, if the LOs deem it to be an appropriate fit for the League,


--
1) Provide links to a screen cap showing animé evidence and/or provide links to a video showing animé evidence (please provide us with a time stamp)

Leech Seed circa 2013/2014 (Outdoors)
http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/th...Leech_Seed.png

http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/xy/814/DP321.jpg

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/th...ech_Seed_2.png

Leech Seed (Indoors)
http://www.serebii.net/anime/pictures/xy/817/DP297.jpg

The Grass Pokémon (in this case, Pumpkaboo) fires a series of seeds at the target. These seeds quickly burst into thick, sturdy roots which bind and immobilise the target. In grassy terrain, the root seem to not only tie up the Pokémon but also root them to the ground itself. Indoors, roots still form and are immobilised, although not truly bound to the ground itself.

Most importantly, the user does not need to retract the roots to reap the benefits. They immediately start draining energy from the target, who squirms. The roots are removable, but the immobilisation and the sturdiness implies that an attack like Rapid Spin, analogous to the games, or a Psychic wave would be required.

Overall, Leech Seed seems to have been buffed in the Animé to turn the vines into roots and to start automatically giving the user health/energy, much like the games. As Leech Seed has limited distribution among only Grass-types, this transition may have some impact in improving the viability of Grass moves. On several occasions, the Animé primarily uses Leech Seed to bind Pokémon, while Team Rocket uses this time to execute another move.

Source:
Pokémon the Series: XY [Episode 14] Seeking Shelter from the Storm!

Time Stamp: 16:31 to 16:54


Source:
Pokémon the Series: XY [Episode 11] The Bamboozling Forest!

Time Stamp: 17:34 to 18:01



2) Provide links to the Bulbapedia article for the move, pokémon etc. in question



Bulbapedia Source: Leech Seed

Source: Jessie's Pumpkaboo (Note that the Animé updated its description of Leech Seed into what it is now. Before, it was a flimsy vine whose Seed needed to be retracted. Now, it's sturdier and reflects the annoying quality the move has in the actual games.)


3) Explain the in game effect of the move in question

Leech Seed plants a seed on the target. At the end of each turn that the target is under the effect of Leech Seed, 1/8 of the target's HP will be drained, and the same amount of HP will be restored to the target's opponent. It can only be removed by either switching, defeating the Seeder, or using a move like Rapid Spin. Overall, it's not indefatigable but it is quite an annoyance as supporting move, which synthesises beautifully with the supporting playstyle of Grass-types.

In the game-state, Leech Seed is one of the very few options that Grass Pokémon have in an increasingly Poison and Fire-dominated metagame.

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/b/bc/Leech_Seed.png

Whether this change in the Animé, which is now a consistent change that has appeared in over three episodes from a regular roster from Team Rocket, is simply a Pumpkaboo-exclusive change that reflects in the SC, or Leech Seed is rewritten to become more of a disrupter move like Bulldoze (vines to sturdier roots, draining/recovery happening without Seed retraction), that is a decision that the LOs and their experience should make.


4) Briefly note the differences between what we do and what the animé does

Currently, ASB!Seed is what it was 5 years ago: flimsy vines are shot out, and energy/health retrieval only happens when the Seed is retracted. Overall, it is not the best move, compared to Grass Knot or String Shot. Moreover, it is not a disruptor along the line of Snarl or Bulldoze. However, the animé has buffed Leech Seed to reflect the annoyance that it is in the games. It has both indoor and outdoor utility, and the sturdiness of roots, as opposed to vines, makes this attack a greater disruptor. Unlike Jetpack Larvesta or levitating Stunfisk, this case is not as ludicrous.

We in the ASBL constantly make fun of Grass Pokémon. Indeed, we have never had a Grass GL, to my knowledge, and most Grass types lack the offensive presence that the ASBL requires. Indeed, ASBL seems to be more offence focused, and even the best of stalls requires offence to be your best defence. Hence, the support-focused Grass Pokémon fall behind in favour for more aggressive-focused Darks (with their corresponding Snarl) or Arena-crushing Grounds (with lovely disruptors like Bulldoze and Magnitude). The resurgence of Poison, thanks to the appearance of Fairies, does not help the case of the Grass.

Buffing Leech Seed to follow the new paradigm established by the animé would breathe new life in Grass-type. Leech Seed has Grass-exclusive distribution, and one of the few benefits that Grasses have in the games. Indeed, any good battler would tell you about the SubSeeding strategy, which even the lowly Meganium can use. By making Leech Seed a sturdy disruptor move like Bulldoze, the show has enabled Grass Pokémon to acclimate their support-focussed strategies in the new hyper-aggressive metagame. Indeed, the increased utility of Leech Seed replenishing health/energy immediately and Leech Seed's ability to bind even indoors make Pumpakoo a viability TR teammate.

Moreover, Grass Pokémon can a new lease on life. A rewrite will give a new life to a Pokemon who already must compete with other Types for a squad place. Furthermore, this change will also bring us closer to the games and the anime's intention when they made Leech Seed nuisance and gift exclusive to Grasses.

empoleon dynamite 04-03-2014 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schadenfreude (Post 569495)
Moreover, Grass Pokémon can a new lease on life. A rewrite will give a new life to a Pokemon who already must compete with other Types for a squad place. Furthermore, this change will also bring us closer to the games and the anime's intention when they made Leech Seed nuisance and gift exclusive to Grasses.

Sorry for interjecting but giving Leech Seed a buff will not give a new lease of life to Grass Pokémon. Grass Pokémon have a tonne of useful moves it's their typing that screws them over.

Schadenfreude 04-03-2014 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by empoleon dynamite (Post 569587)
Sorry for interjecting but giving Leech Seed a buff will not give a new lease of life to Grass Pokémon. Grass Pokémon have a tonne of useful moves it's their typing that screws them over.

Yes, but giving it an extra benefit, however small it may seem, will still go a long way.

Mercutio 04-19-2014 08:47 AM

> Glowing Bone Rush

I think we can stand to make Bone Rush Ground typed, even if the only basis you have is the animé having a hard on for Darth Maul.

> Ambipom shield hands

Eh, I guess? Ambipom isn't bad, it's just bad compared to other Normal types in most ways.

> Making Leech Seed better

I can get on board with that. I imagine that what we'll do is just remove the need to return the seed, as opposed to anything else. Anything to make the ASB less dominated by hyper aggression. Though I hate to break it to you but Grass types will still suck.


Will see what the other LOs think.

Schadenfreude 04-22-2014 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mercutio (Post 577063)
> Making Leech Seed better

I can get on board with that. I imagine that what we'll do is just remove the need to return the seed, as opposed to anything else. Anything to make the ASB less dominated by hyper aggression. Though I hate to break it to you but Grass types will still suck.


Will see what the other LOs think.

Thanks, Kush. I appreciate all the work that you're doing. Can you also replace the flimsy vines with actual roots? We were talking on Skype, and one of the changes that we like from the anime is the fact that Leech Seed is sturdy and more of a disruptor like Snarl or Bulldoze. Considering Grass's access to drain moves, the non-retraction isn't as big a factor, although, like you said, anything that makes ASB less hyper offensive is a good thing and we won't look a gift horse in the mouth.

If you and the LOs could consider making Leech Seed sturdier by replacing vines with roots, we would truly appreciate it.

Mercutio 04-22-2014 02:34 AM

Mehhhh.

Cloneblazer12 04-27-2014 04:53 PM

This just came up in a match, and I'm a fan of froakie, so Wynaut

1)

2) there isn't anything on that that I could really find

3) doesn't exist

4) I'm just asking for an SC update on Froakie that allows him to throw the dribbles like an attack. Considering Bubble is literally his only Bubble attack, the current SC is practically useless.

DaveTheFishGuy 04-27-2014 05:56 PM

I think you're looking for this:

Quote:

Frubble (Japanese: ケロムース Keromousse) — a physical characteristic of Froakie. It reaches into the bubbles on its neck, pulling out handfuls of bubbles and throwing them at its opponents much like an actual attack. This is used usually to subdue the opponent allowing for Froakie to strike while they are distracted. It can also be used as a kind of adhesive or as a cleaning agent (as in The Bamboozling Forest!), and Froakie can also use the frubbles to make a copy of itself (as in A Battle of Aerial Mobility!).
Wouldn't be against it myself, though outside of Equiall 1/2/3 matches I don't overly care since Greninja has no such characteristic.

Cloneblazer12 04-27-2014 06:11 PM

Thats what I was looking for.

And I know Greninja has no such thing, but Froakie (and maybe Frogadier, idk yet) have those bubbles that could be used for something other than lolBubble, because honestly, Bubble is a pretty bad move and charging it faster does really nothing.

Plus Equiall is quite common for leveling.

DaveTheFishGuy 04-27-2014 06:16 PM

Frogadier does have them. I was thinking of putting it forward myself but, as said, not really interest.

And my Greninja's fully levelled so.

Cloneblazer12 04-27-2014 06:17 PM

Dave, do it for the lower TLs. Please. Right now Froakies SC is shit, and I want something I can abuse as a lower TL.

DaveTheFishGuy 04-27-2014 06:23 PM

>Implying it's up to me

Cloneblazer12 04-27-2014 06:31 PM

But you can bring it to the table, right?

DaveTheFishGuy 04-27-2014 06:37 PM

You've already done that :p

Cloneblazer12 04-27-2014 06:43 PM

I mean like in your LO subforum or wherever you do this stuff. Take what I brought to the table for discussion or whatever.

Jerichi 04-27-2014 10:25 PM

Bother Kush, he's doing the SCs right now.

Mercutio 04-28-2014 02:33 AM

Sure fine whatever.

Cloneblazer12 05-25-2014 10:54 AM

1) Provide links to a screen cap showing animé evidence and/or provide links to a video showing animé evidence (please provide us with a time stamp)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwKESzOlFh0
Starts at ~1:00 (anything after 2:17 doesnt really matter.

2) Provide links to the Bulbapedia article for the move, pokémon etc. in question
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wi...haracteristics Says hes proficient in using his pillars in battle.

3) Explain the in game effect of the move in question
Theres not a move perse (though there should be one)

4) Briefly note the differences between what we do and what the animé does
You have Conkeldurr have a significant drop in speed when using his pillars for attacks
Quote:

Conkledurr (Fighting): Conkledurr carry around two concrete blocks which can be used in Physical attacks involving smashing the foe. Using it this way grants them a fair boost in power (~25%) for an equivalent increase in energy use and a significant drop in speed. The blocks can be dropped by Timburr to execute an attack under normal conditions and can be stolen from it, though they are very, very heavy, and the Theif must be extremely strong to steal them.
As seen in basically the only anime battle featuring Conkeldurr, that isnt the case (1:43-1:50). Im asking for the speed drop to be removed, and also a mention for Conk to be able to block physical blows with his pillars by using a move, or even just use the pillars however he wants (counting as a move). Example: "Conkeldurr, smash your foe with your pillars and pin him to the ground!"
Id like to be able to do that without using a sig.

Right now hes basically a sitting duck when he wants to abuse his SC if theres any sort of range involved (not counting Fling), or he cant really abuse it all that much to begin with.


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