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-   -   Move Description Rewrites - Discussion & Talkback Thread (http://forums.upnetwork.net/showthread.php?t=2733)

Jerichi 01-30-2011 11:29 PM

Move Description Rewrites - Discussion & Talkback Thread
 
Mercutio: Ask questions about move descriptions only here. Only LOs should be answering questions here.

As some of you have gathered, I have recently started the long and arduous process of reviewing and rewriting the 400-something-move-long movelist. However, even with my fairly extensive knowledge of the metagame and pretty good amount of experience, I don't know everything and I have my biases (not to mention this is not an easy task for one person to handle). So that's where you, the ASB masses, come in.

Here, we'll discuss the problems with the current movelist, fixing attacks to make them less broken or unnerf them to the point of usability. My goal is to produce a list of attacks that is consistent, usable and varied, with as few useless moves and as little overlap as possible, while still sticking to the spirit of the anime portrayal and the move itself.

Once the whole list is done, I'll post it in a separate thread and this one will be used to discuss any unfavorable changes or issues (including the inevitable typos) within the list and we'll edit as we see fit.

Note that many of the common problems, particularly moves that have appeared in the anime and have yet to be rewritten (e.g. AncientPower, Hidden Power, Aqua Jet), have been noted and either have already been dealt with or will be dealt with eventually. The purpose of this thread is not to talk about old issues but rather discuss and figure out new, more complex ones.

Also, I have revised the damage and energy system, reducing the 25 or so terms used in Muyo's thread to a much smaller, cleaner number that will allow consistency amongst the moves. All move powers will be adjusted on a case-by-case basis and will be scaled to a more reasonable level that fits the power of the moves better. Unless they are exceptional or extreme cases (e.g. Shadow Ball, Focus Punch), do not bring them up here - they will all be changed and made to balance more with the overall scale of the move spectrum.

To keep this thread on topic and in line, we will start with a list of topics and address them one by one until a new description has been written by an LO (likely myself or Muyo) or it has been thoroughly addressed. The list of topics here is definitely not exhaustive, so feel free to propose more problems. For the most part, I will address the attack specific ones when I get to them on my rewrites, and if I take a break from that or decide that I need to look at something more general, I may skip ahead to that. Feel free to suggest the next topic to discuss, as well.

Since I want to keep this thread moving swiftly from one topic to the next to make this as quick and painless as possible, I'll be monitoring it fairly tightly. Spammy post or heated arguments will be deleted and you risk being kicked from the thread for a time if you start fights or spam the thread. Keep things cordial and on topic - if you have a problem, take it to PMs/VMs/IMs.

Oh, and if an emergency rewrite is seen to be fitting, we might do that too, but I'd like to keep the descriptions all together and release them all at once for a clean, cohesive switch.

Attack-specific issues:
  • Bide - Strength, Length, and Power (???)
  • Denerfing Toxic
  • Denerfing Subsitute
  • Shadow Ball's strength
  • Focus Punch - Particulars and Power
  • Encore
  • Sweet Kiss and Lovely Kiss
  • Mach Punch vs. Vacuum Wave
  • Synthesis
  • Protect vs. Safeguard (somewhat dealt with)
  • Rock Attacks From Nowhere
  • Explosion vs. Self Destruct
  • Sketch and denerfing Smeargle
  • Sucker Punch
  • Taunt/Swagger
  • Baton Pass, U-Turn and Volt Change
  • Volt Tackle
  • Misc. Overlapping Moves
  • Double Team
  • Regularizing Stockpile

General issues:
  • Boost energy usage?
  • Status energy usage?
  • General non-damaging moves energy usage?
  • Drains and limits
  • Statuses
  • Healing Moves/Status-curing Moves
  • Missing extra effects (Silver Wind, Psybeam, etc.)
  • Flying moves actually being Flying-typed
  • New Rules and Where to Keep Them

Let's get down to business, folks!

Jerichi 01-30-2011 11:34 PM

Let me start the discussion off with Bide. Here's the proposed rewrite.

Quote:

Bide (NO) -- Taking a defensive stance to reduce damage somewhat, the user takes all attacks making no attempt to dodge as a red aura surrounds the user. At the end of the round(s), the aura will condense in front of the user, and send all energy back in the form of a large beam which is aimed wherever the user wants. The beam is twice the power of the attacks levied against it, and is comprised of the exact same energy type used against the Bide, so the Bide beam CAN encompass several types. The Bide will break after about 3/4ths of a Hyper Beam worth of damage, and the resulting beam will not reflect Super Effective damage, as it calculates the damage before the user is hit. The aura cannot be penetrated, so status changing moves, OHKO attacks, etc. will not work. During the Bide, the user cannot do any other moves and remains still. Energy usage for a Bide is high, depending on the moves used against it, and the user will need time to recharge afterwords.
Fundamentally, it's the same attack - aura, take moves, send them back for double damage. However, I've set lower cap on it so you can't take 2 rounds worth of moves and spit it back for full health worth of damage. It will still take over that in damage and return it, but it will break if it crosses that threshold. I also specified it so you can't return x6 damage with a Focus Punch on a Lucario.

Is this too much of a nerf? Is there a better way to handle this? Suggestions?

Rangeet 01-30-2011 11:37 PM

Much appreciated Jeri, but I see one tiny problem with Bide- can it only take up to 3/4ths of a HB worth of damage, or can it take more in one attack, like Fire Blast, FC Hyper Beam, etc? Question will inevitably be asked, so...

Jerichi 01-30-2011 11:38 PM

>It will still take over that in damage and return it, but it will break if it crosses that threshold.

I'd also like to remind all our lovely members that actually reading my posts completely is advisable.

Rangeet 01-30-2011 11:39 PM

Ffff. You should still put it in the actual descp, just to be safe. :x

Ethereal 01-30-2011 11:43 PM

The only thing I'd have to say about it is that the wording of the attack's duration seems a little vague. In my opinion it ahould be set at the round the user takes damage > 3/4 a Hyper Beam, and that it should automatically be released two rounds later if the user hasn't taken that much damage.

Jerichi 01-30-2011 11:45 PM

Copypasta'd the wrong one, but I did specify here.

Quote:

Bide (NO) -- Taking a defensive stance to reduce damage somewhat, the user takes all attacks making no attempt to dodge as a red aura surrounds the user. At the end of the round(s), the aura will condense in front of the user, and send all energy back in the form of a large beam which is aimed wherever the user wants. The beam is twice the power of the attacks levied against it, and is comprised of the exact same energy type used against the Bide, so the Bide beam CAN encompass several types. The Bide will break after about 3/4ths of a Hyper Beam worth of damage (though all the damage done, regardless of the amount will be reflected), and the resulting beam will not reflect Super Effective damage, as it calculates the damage before the user is hit. The aura cannot be penetrated, so status changing moves, OHKO attacks, etc. will not work. During the Bide, the user cannot do any other moves and remains still. Energy usage for a Bide is high, depending on the moves used against it, and the user will need time to recharge afterward.
Better?

EDIT:
>Ethe

I had the aura bursting automatically after 1 round in an earlier incarnation but decided against that. I'm a little iffy about 2 because one of the biggest trappings of Bide that is a little too big is when you get stuck sitting idle for 2 rounds. Or am I just paranoid?

Muyotwo 01-30-2011 11:53 PM

I think that's one of the drawbacks of Bide that make it not a super-catch all.

Jerichi 01-30-2011 11:59 PM

Yeah, you make a point. Maybe we can find a happy medium.

And Ethe, I see you there deleting your posts. Don't - all input is appreciated.

Ethereal 01-31-2011 12:06 AM

Sorry about that.
Anyway, if you still think that the idle Biding was too much of a drawback, maybe we should allow the user to break out of the Bide. Let's say the user has only taken a Water Pulse of damage at the end of the first round, they could use typeless energy equal to the damage taken to break out, though it won't deal any damage as the Bide wasn't completed.

Mercutio 01-31-2011 04:13 AM

I advocate limiting Bide to one round and not two. Not a fan of moves that force you to waste a move in consecutive rounds if you choose to use them. I think the whole 'no 4x damage' thing should be made a tad clearer, but this would work.

Rangeet 01-31-2011 06:58 AM

Yeah Bide should fire at the end of the first round :o

Also, dunno if I can talk about other moves, but Toxic can be denerfed by simply getting rid of the absorbation time, i.e instant startoff, and maybe add a damage cap. Doesn't need anything more imho.

Concept 01-31-2011 07:01 AM

Personally I think new bide looks good, but should include clarification that the bide user can't use any more moves that round but the target can still defend itself from bide, as it seems to work at the moment. Or possibly drop that but make bide a two mover? Idk, just throwing ideas out here. Also a clarification on how much energy bide uses relative to its strength.

EDIT the first: Also if we're allowing it to continue over into another round, needs clarification on whether it counts as a move in the first round, second round or both, as people will inevitably ask. Personally not a fan of letting it carry over.

Jerichi 02-01-2011 04:11 PM

I'm still not 100% convinced that Bide is perfect and we may need some testing/scenarios to make it a bit fairer. I'm not sure the problem is quite with round limits but with damage caps, since giving you a defined limit does make basically all moves after that point almost useless when you can return them in full.

Maybe a better defined drawback to discourage its excessive use? I was thinking a defined Hyper Beam clause so you don't get away with Bide scott-free.

DaveTheFishGuy 02-01-2011 04:54 PM

If I suggest 'Make Bide like the games and have the target take XX damage that is twice what the user takes', how much abuse will I get?

Jerichi 02-01-2011 05:11 PM

That would actually take down the brokenness quite a bit and still make it fairly useful since it would modify for SE damage.

And also, since Bide is a bit more complex than I anticipated, let's start looking at Toxic.

The suggestions have mostly been to cut the sink in time. I, personally, don't entirely agree with that because it does balance a move that everyone gets. However, a defined starting point and cap might balance it a bit. Ideas?

DaveTheFishGuy 02-01-2011 05:14 PM

Oh, awesome.

My train of thought was pretty much that. Still takes SEness into account, but it's based on the Bider rather than the aggressor.

Though of course this could lead to people ordering second countering first-order Typespam with Bide more than it already happens.

Concept 02-01-2011 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy (Post 205009)
Oh, awesome.

My train of thought was pretty much that. Still takes SEness into account, but it's based on the Bider rather than the aggressor.

Though of course this could lead to people ordering second countering first-order Typespam with Bide more than it already happens.

I forsee all gym matches going like this;

Challenger: "Ice beam x2!"
Lonely Cubone: "Bide!"

Elsie wins!

Toxic is almost useless right now (I used it once, to pressure ID as I was going for an energy KO. I didn't see anything from it in like six rounds, SS reffing).

DaveTheFishGuy 02-01-2011 05:31 PM

Again, that's how it works in the games.

Agreed on Toxic. Honestly can't remember using it, but yeah, it's pretty damn bad right now.

Oh look I have nothing of value to contribute. What a surprise.

Concept 02-01-2011 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy (Post 205015)
Again, that's how it works in the games.

And sheer cold is a OHKO in the games. That's also a bad idea.

With regards to toxic, I'd probably be inclined to say reduce the seeping in time to like a round, then place a cap on the max amount it can deal per turn (so it begins hurting one round after being used, then plateaus out a few rounds later. Place a cap of, say, a fifth of a HB, then if used in the first round a pokemon is out it'll be dealing like 0.5-1 HB over the course of the time your average pokemon is out. Up the energy or slap on a usage limit if you're really worried about it being abused.

Deebs 02-01-2011 05:47 PM

Inb4everyoneusesToxicinthefirstround.

EDIT: To actually contribute, I'd take more to Concept's if the energy was kicked up a couple notches and a one-time usage limit slapped on it (not like that'll stop the replacement that comes in from using it on the next fresh opponent - we're going to be seeing Toxic in every match if it does anything above .75 an HB over time, imo). I mean, it'd be knocking ~25% your work off KOing your opponent.

Steel types will likely surge in usage.

DaveTheFishGuy 02-01-2011 05:51 PM

Can't say for other refs, but I have Toxic deal .2 HB on about the third turn of damage. But it's never lasted long enough to really put on a cap.

And honestly I'd be more in favour of Game-style Bide than current ASB-style Bide, but I'm sure Concept will pull up some counter-argument that involves his viewpoint and insulting me.

Concept 02-01-2011 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveTheFishGuy (Post 205024)
Can't say for other refs, but I have Toxic deal .2 HB on about the third turn of damage. But it's never lasted long enough to really put on a cap.

And honestly I'd be more in favour of Game-style Bide than current ASB-style Bide, but I'm sure Concept will pull up some counter-argument that involves his viewpoint and insulting me.

I've not insulted you yet and I don't intend to. I'd probably rather see bide take in the raw power of the moves (not taking into account the bide users type) and spit out a beam that's XX and, say, 1.5x stength. Bide has way more issues than just typing and whether it takes damage or power into account.

Bide (XX) -- Taking a defensive stance to reduce damage somewhat, the user takes all attacks making no attempt to dodge as a red aura surrounds the user. The aura cannot be penetrated, so status changing moves, OHKO attacks, etc. will not work. During the Bide, the user cannot do any other moves and remains still. Energy usage for a Bide is high, depending on the moves used against it, and the user will need time to recharge afterward. After taking two attacks or a maximum 3/4's HB damage (damage taken over and above this is factored into bide's strength, but bide will automatically break when it breaches this limit), the aura will condense in front of the user and fire in a red beam aimed wherever the user wants. The beam is typeless and deals 1.5x the total damage the aura took. Bide counts as a two mover, and is one use per battle per pokemon.

Possibly going too far and maybe not all of those nerfs are needed, but I think the basic idea is sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dream Breaker (Post 205023)
Inb4everyoneusesToxicinthefirstround.

EDIT: To actually contribute, I'd take more to Concept's if the energy was kicked up a couple notches and a one-time usage limit slapped on it (not like that'll stop the replacement that comes in from using it on the next fresh opponent - we're going to be seeing Toxic in every match if it does anything above .75 an HB over time, imo). I mean, it'd be knocking ~25% your work off KOing your opponent.

Steel types will likely surge in usage.

Yeah, I said up the energy use/slap a usage limit on it. To put things into perspective and stop the "ohnoes, toxic would be overpowered!!!!11111!", fire blast/thunder/hydro pump do more in one strike than this would do in six rounds (one round to seep in, one at 0.05, one at 0.1 and three at 0.2). Kick up the energy usage like I suggested, make it take longer to use than at present, and I don't see much of a problem.

Jerichi 02-01-2011 06:13 PM

>x1.5 multiplier

This is actually a pretty good way of balancing it, but I fear that it might defeat the spirit of the move. If I lower the multiplier I could also increase the break point since x1.5 a Hyper Beam is much less horrible than a x2 Hyper Beam.

I'll talk to Muyo about it and hash out a decent rewrite before we get out the full list.

As for Toxic...

>Yeah, I said up the energy use/slap a usage limit on it.

This is probably the best suggestion. The reason the soak time was installed was so it doesn't become, well.

>Inb4everyoneusesToxicinthefirstround.

As DB put it.

I figure a one round wait time and a reasonable cap on the damage with a fairly slow build will allow it to be a pressure tactic. Personally, I'd like it to be scaled so that it would KO in more or less 12 rounds, which is a good bit over the standard amount of time it takes to KO a Pokemon. This way, with fairly normal damage output, this will push the KO to round 8 give or take.

Jerichi 02-02-2011 06:23 AM

I just read the description of Toxic again and I don't see any soak time like there used to be. I don't know if Nick rewrote it at some time or if it was just something that was added on, but I'll tweak it for balance and clarification.

Quote:

Toxic (PO) -- Using significant energy, the user injects a toxin into the victim in the most appropriate method fashionable. Pokemon with large fangs (Golbat) will bite the opponent; Pokemon with sharp tails (Pikachu) will inject the poison with its tail; Other Pokemon will simply spew the poison from their mouths. The referee should use common sense and the aforementioned examples in determining how Toxic is used, as well as the effect it would have on the opponent, if any. For the first round (the round it is used), the poison soaks into the bloodstream, dealing no damage. The next round, the toxin deals roughly the same damage as regular poison, but as the rounds pass, the damage increases each round, capping at half a Hyper Beam worth of damage after about eight rounds. Damage may also be modified by the amount of toxin soaked in/injected and the size of the victim.
Good?


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