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-   -   UPN 2011 Champion League Tournament (http://forums.upnetwork.net/showthread.php?t=3595)

Talon87 11-03-2011 02:33 PM

UPN 2011 Champion League Tournament
 
For tournament rules post, click here!
For the battle log video list, click here!
For tournament standings, click here and scroll down!


What You'll Need: some free time this or next weekend, the Pokémon-Online software, and a good attitude :)

Step 1: Sign up! If we get enough interest, I'll edit this post to include more trainers to choose from.

Step 2: We'll roll dice to determine who gets what trainer from the list below. I'll ask someone with a web camera to roll some dice for us on webcam so that there's no arguing about it. Once a character is selected from the list below, they are removed from the list before rolling for the next character begins. In other words, no repeats!

Character Roster: - 11/06/2011 UPDATED - now includes Koga's list. Will include the other three once they confirm their re-roll status.
Spoiler: show
All teams listed below are based on the creatures used by the characters in their respective appearances in R/B/Y/G/S/C/Ru/Sa/Em/FR/LG/D/P/Pt/HG/SS/K/W. No creatures which these trainers may have had in the anime or in any side-games but not in the main video games proper have been included.
  • Green / Blue:
    • Pidgeot
    • Alakazam
    • Rhydon
    • Exeggutor
    • Gyarados
    • Arcanine
    • Venusaur OR Blastoise OR Charizard (pick one)
    • Sandslash
    • Magneton
    • Cloyster
    • Ninetales
    • Jolteon OR Vaporeon OR Flareon (pick one)
    • Heracross
    • Tyranitar
    • Machamp
    • Rhyperior
  • Red:
    • Pikachu
    • Venusaur
    • Blastoise
    • Charizard
    • Snorlax
    • Espeon
    • Lapras
  • Lance:
    • Dragonair
    • Dragonite
    • Gyarados
    • Aerodactyl
    • Charizard
    • Kingdra
    • Altaria
    • Salamence
    • Garchomp
  • Steven:
    • Skarmory
    • Cradily
    • Claydol
    • Armaldo
    • Aggron
    • Metagross
  • Wallace:
    • Luvdisc
    • Sealeo
    • Seaking
    • Whiscash
    • Milotic
    • Wailord
    • Tentacruel
    • Ludicolo
    • Gyarados
  • Cynthia:
    • Spiritomb
    • Gastrodon
    • Roserade
    • Lucario
    • Milotic
    • Garchomp
    • Togekiss
    • Braviary
    • Eelektross
  • Alder:
    • Accelgor
    • Bouffalant
    • Druddigon
    • Vanilluxe
    • Escavalier
    • Volcarona

Elite Four:
  • Will
    • Xatu
    • Jynx
    • Slowbro
    • Exeggutor
    • Bronzong
    • Grumpig
    • Gardevoir
  • Koga
    • Koffing
    • Weezing
    • Muk
    • Venonat
    • Venomoth
    • Ariados
    • Forretress
    • Crobat
    • Skuntank
    • Toxicroak
    • Swalot
  • Bruno
    • Onix
    • Steelix
    • Hitmonchan
    • Hitmonlee
    • Hitmontop
    • Machamp
    • Hariyama
    • Lucario
  • Karen
    • Umbreon
    • Vileplume
    • Murkrow
    • Honchkrow
    • Gengar
    • Houndoom
    • Weavile
    • Absol
    • Spiritomb

Step 3: You'll select up to six of the creatures listed for your assigned team. Download the Pokémon-Online software, make a Pokémon-Online account, and build your team in the program's Team Builder. Nature, IVs, EVs, moves, held items, battle order, everything's up to you. (No, you do not have to use the moves which the creatures had in the video games.)

Step 4: Battle! :) I'll declare the official battle format once we know how many people are participating. (Eight or fewer, probably Round Robin. Nine or more, probably double-elimination.) I'll hold off on posting rules about scheduling and disqualification until we know what format we're doing. Rules about item clauses, sleep clauses, repeat Pokémon, etc, will be held off for now as well so that all the rules can be posted together.

Step 5: Have fun! Even if you're not participating, feel free to watch the battles in real time by logging onto the battle server with your Pokémon-Online account. Be courteous and have a good time. For the sake of everybody having fun, all battes will be publically-viewable. This is neither the place nor the time to be worried about your competition "scouting" your team to see what moves you use. This is a casual tourney that's meant to be fun for the whole community. :)

Concept 11-03-2011 03:20 PM

You know what? Yeah, I'll sign up for this. I have no competitive experience whatsoever, so it could be amusing.

Kindrindra 11-03-2011 03:31 PM

This is an amazing idea and I love it to bits.

Could the battles be recorded with the Pokemon Online replay maker? (http://pokemon.aesoft.org/)

Not being able to have Pokemon-Online means I'll likely miss out, but I'd be more than willing to watch the battles!

Tyranidos 11-03-2011 03:40 PM

Sign me up, baldy.

Talon87 11-03-2011 09:58 PM

Concept and Tdos, welcome aboard! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kindrindra (Post 282310)
Could the battles be recorded with the Pokemon Online replay maker? (http://pokemon.aesoft.org/)

Not being able to have Pokemon-Online means I'll likely miss out, but I'd be more than willing to watch the battles!

I record all of my logs by default. However, this is the first I've ever heard of this website. Very neat! I just lost the last 30 minutes to plugging in random matches of mine from the past to see how they'd look. Very fun. I will definitely be encouraging everybody to save their battle logs so that we may upload them to this site and post the links here for everyone to enjoy.

Why can't you have Pokémon-Online, btw? :?

KratosAurion 11-04-2011 12:37 PM

Officially Signing Up.

Hell yeah, as a former Comp. Player, this wil bring back some nice memories.

Emi 11-04-2011 12:40 PM

SIGN ME UP!!!!

Lonely Cubone 11-04-2011 01:17 PM

Definitely up for this, I'm trying to train a comp team on Black at the moment but won't have it ready for a while yet, so a bit of Pokémon Online is good by me, and I really like tournaments with themes!

Although Green/Blue seems to be a bit OP.

Talon87 11-04-2011 02:04 PM

Welcome aboard, Kratos, blaze, and LC!

Green/Blue may seem overpowered, but I think that each of the teams has its own strengths and weaknesses. At the same time, yes, there are some teams you'd rather have than others, but that's why this is a casual tourney. You're supposed to have fun, not worry about winning. Great if you do, but I think the best attitude you can have for a tournament like this one is to feel a special bond with your lottery-assigned character. You are representing him (or her). So be the best possible advocate you can be for him/her. Other people talk trash about him/her? You represent! You stand up for him/her! Do that and do it sincerely and I think you'll have a lot of fun with this tourney. :)

The other thing to keep in mind is that the moment we get an eighth person who wants to join (so just two more people), I expand the roster to include the Elite Four. (Not sure if I should start with Gen 5 and work backwards, Gen I and work forwards, or what. We'll see.) So if that happens, intra-Champion imbalance could be the least of your worries. ;-)

This should be a lot of fun for everybody.

SP-Eevee 11-04-2011 02:58 PM

I'm usually lurking on Pokemon Online for VGC so sign me up.

Talon87 11-04-2011 03:32 PM

Welcome aboard, SP-Eevee!

Okay, since we're just one sign-up away from 8, then, I'll go ahead and open the floor to suggestions about which Elite 4 to add. I'll make the ultimate decision, but your advice may sway me! ;-)

Spoiler: show
Option 1: go in reverse chronological order
The rationale behind this decision would be that the latest Elite 4 were among the hardest many trainers felt that they faced when playing through a main game's Story Mode. Not only that but these Elite 4 have the benefit of all of the newest moves and abilities, arguably lending them more of a fighting chance against the seven Champions.

Option 2: go in chronological order
The rationale here is that nostalgia matters. People care more about Lorelei than Grimsley. They care more about Agatha than Shauntal. And all because these were the people they played dozens of times over. Copy and paste for Gen 2's Elite 4. The argument starts to fall apart around Gen 3. (Poor, poor Sidney.)

Option 3: Start with Gen II, actually
The rationale for this option is that the Gen II gym leaders are the most recently up-to-date ones (barring Gen 5's) and with the most expansive teams. Only Gens 1, 2, and 4 have gotten post-Story Mode team changes, expanding their rosters significantly. Of these, Gen 2's is actually the newest, thanks to HGSS coming out after Platinum.

Option 4: Pick and Choose Based on Perceived Power Level
This would be the option to go with if we want to hand-pick Elite 4 people to add, one at a time as people sign up and create the need for more spots. So like, I think we could agree that a team like Karen's would be more competitively viable than a team like Sidney's; or that a team like Will's might have a better shot than a team like poor Glacia's.

Option 5: just add all five regions' worth of Elite Four members at the same time
Don't worry about the details, Talon! Just add all of them and we'll see who the dice rolls turn up for each of us.

Option 6: Other

I'm currently torn between Options 3 and 4, but you guys may have different opinions. So I welcome them, especially since, due to the chance nature of a dice roll, any one of us might end up getting an E4 member instead of a champion. Which is to say, this decision will very probably affect one or more of us, so it's only fair to at least entertain your thoughts on this matter before I make a decision.

Concept 11-04-2011 03:49 PM

Option 3 sounds good, gen II get least screwed methinks.

Kindrindra 11-04-2011 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talon87 (Post 282369)
Why can't you have Pokémon-Online, btw? :?

Don't currently have access to a computer I have the permissions to. Doing a website on Competetive Gaming in Web Design, this is a bit of a problem. ;^_^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talon87 (Post 282547)
Huge Post of Awesome Ideas

I like Option 4 the most, myself.

Tyranidos 11-04-2011 04:32 PM

I vote Option 3.

Emi 11-04-2011 04:44 PM

Option 3 or 5.

Leaning towards five, though, three is good.

KratosAurion 11-04-2011 04:45 PM

Option 4.

Lady Kuno 11-04-2011 05:07 PM

I'll join in. Seems interesting.

Talon87 11-04-2011 06:25 PM

A NEW CHALLENGER!

Welcome aboard, Kuno. That makes eight. So yes, we will be busting out the Elite 4.

=Current List of Competitors=
Talon87
Concept
Tyranidos
KratosAurion
blazeVA
Lonely Cubone
SP-Eevee
Holy Emperor

Continue to vote for which option you like. It's not exactly democratic though: I'll be swayed by a good convincing argument even if it only comes from one guy. Vice versa, even if it comes from the entire group, I won't be swayed by a poor argument.

=Current Tally of Votes=
Option 3: ||||
Option 4: |||
Option 5: |

You guys certainly aren't making it easy for me. ^^; =P I'll have to think about which one sounds better, 3 or 4. Of course, anything could change with one really impressive, persuasive appeal for any of the 5+ options on the table.

XanderKetsu 11-04-2011 09:07 PM

And now I have a new use for Pokemon Online. Sign me up, if still open.

And if still excepted, and as a current Johto fan, I say Option III.

Lonely Cubone 11-04-2011 11:04 PM

I quite like Option 5 but 3 is better than 4 so I vote 3. Yay tactical voting

/upsetsKush

Talon87 11-04-2011 11:24 PM

Tactical voting nothing. ^^; Persuasion, guys, not number of votes. I'm actually leaning more towards 4 right now since the way I see it Karen and Will are in a very different category from Bruno and Koga; and I think Aaron and Flint would prove rather more popular/capable of holding their own against Champions than those two, too.

Lonely Cubone 11-05-2011 05:28 AM

A quick glance at Bulbapedia tells me that Gen II definitely had the best E4.

Concept 11-05-2011 09:23 AM

I can understand why you'd be dubious about including Bruno, but Koga has an alright team set up (including his gym appearances). I don't feel that Koga or Bruno has a particularly worse team than some of the champions we've already included.

If you're going to throw in the four most easily defended, then honestly that basically is picking gen II anyway, with the only real exception being possibly Flint instead of Bruno. Options 3 and 4 are mostly the same option anyway. And if we only need one or two, then they totally are the same option.

Spoiler: show
Bruno
Onix
Steelix
Hitmonchan
Hitmontop
Hitmonlee
Machamp
Hariyama
Lucario

against Flint:
Infernape
Rapidash
Houndoom
Steelix
Lopunny
Drifblim
Flareon
Magmortar

and for the record as you were debating Koga too:
Weezing
Muk
Venomoth
Ariados
Forretress
Crobat
Skuntank
Toxicroak
Swalot

against Aaron
Vespiquen
Dustox
Scizor
Heracross
Drapion
Beautifly
Yanmega

Talon87 11-05-2011 09:50 AM

Welcome aboard, XanderKetsu!

=Current List of Competitors=
Talon87
Concept
Tyranidos
KratosAurion
blazeVA
Lonely Cubone
SP-Eevee
Holy Emperor
XanderKetsu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Concept (Post 282658)
I can understand why you'd be dubious about including Bruno, but Koga has an alright team set up (including his gym appearances). I don't feel that Koga or Bruno has a particularly worse team than some of the champions we've already included.

If you're going to throw in the four most easily defended, then honestly that basically is picking gen II anyway, with the only real exception being possibly Flint instead of Bruno. Options 3 and 4 are mostly the same option anyway. And if we only need one or two, then they totally are the same option.

Spoiler: show
Bruno
Onix
Steelix
Hitmonchan
Hitmontop
Hitmonlee
Machamp
Hariyama
Lucario

against Flint:
Infernape
Rapidash
Houndoom
Steelix
Lopunny
Drifblim
Flareon
Magmortar

and for the record as you were debating Koga too:
Weezing
Muk
Venomoth
Ariados
Forretress
Crobat
Skuntank
Toxicroak
Swalot

against Aaron
Vespiquen
Dustox
Scizor
Heracross
Drapion
Beautifly
Yanmega

I feel that Aaron's team completely wipes the floor against either Koga's or Bruno's, but since you compared the two directly, let's look. I would rather hold off on doing this for any other trainers (please) since it is arguably unfair to the people who will be using them in the tourney, even if this is a mega-casual tourney where we don't care about the wins or losses so much as we do the epic match-ups.
Spoiler: show
Koga has Weezing (from Weezing's RSE heyday), Forretress, and Toxicroak as far as viability in an OU environment is concerned. Not to say that any of them are OU: merely that they're OU viable. Crobat is one I'm sure fans will want to contest -- I have raised two competitive Crobats myself so I understand your sympathies -- but I think this is really all Koga has going for him. Poison suffers from a terrible weakness to one of the metagame's most popular attacks, Earthquake, and where it doesn't (see: Crobat), the options to OHKO via stab Psychic or Stone Edge still abound on these Champions' teams. Aaron, on the other hand, has a team which if you let Morgoth control it, he could very probably have come very close to winning the entire Summer 2010 tournament. He actually did use Vespiquen to great effect, and I don't think anyone is going to argue against Scizor or Heracross's OU presence. Yanmega's either barely OU, solidly BL, or the god-king of UU, take your pick, making him an excellent fourth addition to the squad. Then there's Drapion, who as Morg showed can be a veritable tank with the right EV spread and Acupressure. Really, the ONLY weak links there are Dustox and Beautifly.

Anyway, I think I've figured out an option which should please all parties. See the official drafting and tournament rules post that I'll write up right now for details I'll hold off on until tomorrow's votes are tallied. (See post below.)

Talon87 11-05-2011 10:45 AM

Okay, before I get too carried away making either a Round Robin chart or a double-elimination bracket chart, I guess I should put this up to an actual vote. You have 24 hours from this posting to vote. At the end of 24 hours, registration for the tournament shall be closed, the votes shall be tallied, and the tournament structure shall be decided. I know which one I'd rather do, but since we have as many as nine people now, I guess it's only fair, given everyone's schedules, that I ask the group democratically which of two awesome goods :D they'd rather do:

Option A: the Round Robin Tournament
Spoiler: show
Helpful Schematic: click here

How this would work: there would be n rounds, where n is the odd number of participants or the even number of participants minus one. (For example, with nine participants, we'd have nine rounds. With ten participants, we would also have nine rounds.) During each round, there would be n/2 battles rounded down (so four battles for nine people, five battles for ten people, etc). Any odd men out would have the bye that round (meaning they sit out and get a free win). Each round, you rotate around the "table" (hence the name of the format, Round Robin) and square off against somebody new. Whoever has racked up the most wins by the end of the tournament is declared the victor. In the unlikely event of a tie for 1st place, there would be a final face-off match.

Important differences from Option B below:
1. You would face every single person in the tournament.
2. You would only battle any one person once. (Note that this may or may not also be true for Option B.)
3. You would battle as many times as there are rounds minus one.
4. Your ultimate victory or defeat would not hinge on any one particular match-up.

Option B: the Double-Elimination Tournament
Spoiler: show
Helpful Schematic: click here

How this would work: We would randomly seed an upper bracket (termed a winners' bracket) to determine who plays who in the first round of battles. Each round, you would participate in either a best 2 out of 3 match or else a single match (TBD by your votes should you choose Option B). Whoever the victor is at the end of each match moves on in the winners' bracket. Whoever the loser is at the end of each match is demoted to the losers' bracket where he must fight for survival against the other defeated players if he wants a second shot at the crown. In the end, the champion of the winners' bracket and the champion of the losers' bracket square off in a best 2 out of 3 competition for the crown.

Should Option B win this vote, and should you choose to vote for option B-1 in a later vote, you would be voting for the format in which every single match-up is a Best 2 out of 3 match. This would allow for a greater number of battles but would draw the tournament out significantly. It would probably take many weeks to complete. Should you instead choose to vote for option B-2 in a later vote, you would be voting for the format in which every single match-up except the championship battle is a Sudden Death match. This would allow for greater speed throughout the tournament but would also mean that many competitors fight as few as only two or three battles before being eliminated entirely.

Important differences from Option A above:
1. You would only face some of the people in the tournament.
2. (Depending on your votes) you would battle each person you fight multiple times before victory or defeat was declared.
3. (Depending on your votes) you are statistically unlikely to battle for very many rounds. In fact, over half of all contestants will be completely eliminated from the tournament after only three rounds, with one quarter eliminated after only two.
4. Your ultimate victory or defeat could very well hinge on one particular match-up.

Place your votes. With an odd number of people, the majority wins. With an even number of people, in the event of a tie I will be the tie-breaker vote. =P Otherwise, this'll be fairly democratic. Feel free to make appeals for your vote, but you won't be trying to persuade me this time but instead your fellow voters. If you should change your mind, simply edit the post in which you voted. No need to re-post. I will not tally votes at all until the deadline is met tomorrow.

One final thing to note: don't be alarmed that in both formats there are multiple battles which seemingly take place at the same time. For the sake of allowing the audience to watch as many battles as possible, but also for the sake of facilitating a speedy tournament, we can settle on how many battles take place at once later. This applies to both formats and should therefore not influence your vote as to which of the two formats is "better" from an audience perspective.


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