Harry Potter

[S_M]

As a Harry Potter nerd, I feel the need to make a thread for Harry Potter discussion. :O

Order of the Phoenix movie comes out July 11th (and the special effects look awesome - hopefully it won't be a repeat of the third movie in that respect though, which cut out half of the book).

And of course the 7th book comes out July 21st. :O Me and my friends are our nerdy selves and decided to be one of the people who wait outside the store at midnight and get the book. :P

[Talon87]

I was planning on starting up with Book 1 once I got back from my trip, but now that I'm here and loving Romance of the Three Kingdoms, I sort of don't see it happening. I dunno. It'll be a conflict of wills because ...

a) I don't want to put RoTK down for Harry Potter since RoTK is a lot better (not a better read, since it's hard, but a much better story)

-BUT!-

b) I don't want Book 7 spoiled for me, and the longer I put off reading it, the more likely I am to be spoiled

So I have to ask myself, which would I rather do? Put down RoTK for Harry Potter or risk being spoiled? :|

I'm also deciding which of these two plans is best ...
1 - original plan - I was going to read Books 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 for the third time and read Book 6 for the second time before reading Book 7 for the first time

2 - new plan - I might just opt to re-read Book 6 and then read Book 7, since I remember the core of Books 1-5 pretty well (having read them twice already) and the only book I'm shaky on and could REALLY stand to benefit from re-reading is Book 6


I like the original plan because, even though I do remember the core details from 1-5, it's always good to have the small details fresh in my memory so that (as I read Book 7) I can try to piece things together more easily and I can also appreciate Rowling's subtle clues and fanservice tidbits. But I like the new plan too because it's the plan which would spare me from the most grief (of having to plow through over 2000 pages of Potter instead of just a few hundred).

[S_M]

Actually, I plan to reread the books and rewatch the movies, the movies mostly because JK Rowling said that there are "accidental" clues to what happens in the 7th book in the movies, just having been put there for movie-ness without having prior knowledge of the plan. But if I don't see the movies, oh well.

Still have over 3 weeks to figure out what I'm doing.

[Sylar]

Just replace my old thread then. ;-;

Actually, that was more Book-7 only, so I approve of this generalism.

Talon, quick spoiler. Snape killed Dumbledore! :O

To be honest, I can't wait. I'll probably be one of the nerdy people who goes to the shop at midnight to get the book, then read it til 3am, fall asleep then wake up, not realise where I am, accidentally lose my page and have to start over.

In the Swedish version, they translated the name as Harry Potter and the Relics of Death. Which I suppose could be referring to the Horcruxes, but you never know for sure with Rowling.

I'd like to see Ron die ceremoniously to save Hermione, then Hermione doesn't care, confesses her love to Harry, and is killed by Voldemort for being a whiny bitch. Then Harry and Voldemort have crumpets, followed by Dumbledore coming back to life, claiming he was "just over there", and joins in the crumpetting, with Hagrid and his half-brother in the background, both playing violins and Peter Pettigrew on the drums.

[S_M]

pfft, 3am? My plan is to load up on chocolate, Mountain Dew, and other assorted sugar products and read the book, then promptly fall asleep for 12 hours, waking up at 4am the next day.

[Talon87]

I smirked. :) Nah, I don't want anybody but Harry and Voldemort to die. Because I think they need to die since they are both anomalous existences which need to be offed for the Universe to rectify itself. Killing anybody else would be excessive and (Joe's humorous jokes aside) uninteresting. Plus, I'll be pissed if that stupid bitch Rowling ...
a) proves she's a stupid bitch by keeping Snape evil instead of rewriting her intention for the character to fit with what the intellectual crowd demanded -- we want a good Snape! We want complex antiheroes!

b) proves she's an even stupider bitch by (either way, be he an evil dude or a good heroic dude) killing Snape off

[S_M]

Harry Potter Puppet Pals are awesome :O

Particularly like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1yn9mrZ ... ed&search= (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1yn9mrZELg&mode=related&search=) but the others are awesome too. :O

This isn't the puppet pals but I think it's pretty funny anyway :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yViphVO-WnI

[Another Fan]

I got the 8th book spoiled for me. YTMND's a bitch with stuff like that. Some on made it so the title of every search of anything Harry Potter related to have the big big spoiler on it.

Oh well.

[Sylar]

...I'll just let somebody else handle this. xd

In the meantime: Rofflecopter. (http://potterspamspoiler.ytmnd.com/)

[Kasumi Violet]

Talon, I wouldn't be surprised if Snape dies, but a hero's death, saving Harry during a final critical moment or some such nonsense. If Snape died for nothing, that would be bad, but I really don't see what would be wrong with having him die honorably. We already know Harry's not going to die (based on recent interviews), it's very unlikely that she'd kill off Ron or Hermione (who've finally admitted their feelings for one another), so Snape is the next logical character. Frankly, assuming it's Good!Snape, part of him has already died when he killed Dumbledore... think about it.

[Talon87]

I think that would really cheapen his character, too, making him this big "lovable lug" of a martyr who "takes one for the team" for Harry, thereby proving "I loved you all along, Boy." No thanks. :|

I'd rather he adopt Harry, which is what I've wanted him to do ever since Book 5. Unfortunately, there's no longer much of a need for that since Harry's "all growed up" and doesn't need to move in with Severus or anybody for that matter. Plus, he's at an age where he's more likely to room with Ron than he is with a parental figure.

*shrug* ... what you're suggesting is DEFINITELY better than Snape just being killed off. Especially by Harry. -_-; But ... I'm really, really opposed to Severus the Martyr on grounds of cheesiness at this point. Arguably, he's already played the part of martyr, too (if you interpret his role in the killing of Albus Dumbledore as "martyrdom" since he's saving Malfoy from that burden).

[Sylar]

Snape owes Harry's father a lifedebt. :O Maybe it carries over to offspring if the parents die?

At least that way, Snape could have the chance to finally do away with Harry, but spare him, not out of being all luvvy-duvvy, but because it's the honourable thing to do. :O And then he either gets locked up in Azkaban or becomes the new Voldemort. >>;

[Torkoal Stu]

Well since its tradition, me and one of my closest friends from primary school are going to go see the 5th film together. We were in the last year of our primary schooling when the first movie came out and we loved the books so we've seen each one together since, which is awesome and even though we went to different secondary schools I saw her today at my 6th form induction day randomly (cause we barely even talk anymore, kinda on msn sometimes like she dropped me a happy birthday email a few weeks back) but anyway she was all 'Stu we have to go see the new Harry Potter film this month!' and I was like 'totally, I'll phone you about it'.

Anyway I have high hopes for the film.

However, I still haven't read the 6th book. But I am going on holiday to Italy for a week which I believe crosses over onto (or a day close to) the latest books release....so I could read it on holiday, then wait a few days. Ignoring as much spoilers as I can and then just buy it when I happen to have money I can get from my bank (But I dunno, I might wait until I have a job so I can refill my bank. Though a book doesn't cost much so I have no clue why I am worrying about it, it won't even take a £10 out of my account really but since I guess I don't have a job I'm just a saver right now until I get a job.)

Anyway I'll fully read the 6th book, even though I know what happens its different reading it really. Then later I'll just buy the 7th and chill out with my friend and watch the movie. Though some of the good parts get totally cut out like in all of the films, I do still have high hopes though. The third wasn't that good, but the fourth was AWESOME so really it made up for whatever it cut out with awesomeness.


I got the 8th book spoiled for me. YTMND's a bitch with stuff like that. Some on made it so the title of every search of anything Harry Potter related to have the big big spoiler on it.

AF, the 7th book is coming out this month. How can the 8th book be spoiled for you? >>; *shot*

[S_M]

And the whole there is no 8th book thing...:P

[ZoraJolteon]

JK revealed the title of the 8th book years ago.

"Harry Potter and the Difficult Tax Return"

[Another Fan]

My bad. 7th book. Whatever.

[Sylar]

JK revealed the title of the 8th book years ago.

"Harry Potter and the Difficult Tax Return"

And the 9th Book's called "Harry Potter and the Mid-Life Crisis".

>>;

[Raptor Jesus]

I can never read Harry Potter books especially since Muyo ruined it (http://forums.upnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?p=192783#p192783) for me.

[ForeverFlygon]

You know, the movie really was alot better than I had expected (and I keep my expectations low so I don't get dissapointed). Of course, after just seeing it once, it's hard to point out what's bad about it, which is why I'll preobably soon regret telling everyone how great it is. But as usual, the movie cuts through half the book, (which is understandable), and it annoys me because stuff I'd wanted to see wasn't in there. Most of the things I'd though would be hard to do on film, was actually pretty good.

And neu, I'm not going to grade it because you are all probably laughing your arses off at me anyways now. >>;

[Talon87]

Tell us if Neville Longbottom's history (particularly the visit to the psychiatric ward where his parents are kept) was retained in the film or if it was cut out. I think it's one of the most important "side quests" in the entire franchise, but it is only a side quest (since in Book 6 Rowling completely deconstructs any possibility of Neville being a major player :|).

Did they cut out the centaur or did they keep him in? (I forget his name.) I imagine they'd have to keep him in a little, otherwise the whole Astrology bit would make no sense, nor would what happens to Umbridge in the end.

How long was the fight in the Ministry building? I'd like it to at least be 20 minutes, but maybe that's too long. :|

[ForeverFlygon]

Tell us if Neville Longbottom's history (particularly the visit to the psychiatric ward where his parents are kept) was retained in the film or if it was cut out. I think it's one of the most important "side quests" in the entire franchise, but it is only a side quest (since in Book 6 Rowling completely deconstructs any possibility of Neville being a major player :|).

Did they cut out the centaur or did they keep him in? (I forget his name.) I imagine they'd have to keep him in a little, otherwise the whole Astrology bit would make no sense, nor would what happens to Umbridge in the end.

How long was the fight in the Ministry building? I'd like it to at least be 20 minutes, but maybe that's too long. :|


I don't want to spoil anything, but I can tell you that ... you just got one reason less to see the film (Or as I thought you'd call it =P). It's not in sadly, it's just mentioned for three seconds, and then hinted at one or two times. I wouldn't wanted to see loony Goldenroy though.

Talking about Loony, some characters really changed compared to my own image, Luna being one of them. I find her character more interesting than in the film, as well as Snape. That trip into his youth really made me feel bad.

Look, now I'm at it again. Just talking about all the good stuff, making me look like a dork. >>
... although that might be because I am one.

[Talon87]

Wait, so you mean they fucked up the most important scene in Book 5!? :O (Snape's Legilimency lessons with Harry + the unfortunate accident of Harry being caught looking at Snape's memories in the Pensieve shortly before one of their lessons)

[ForeverFlygon]

No, that was the good one(although very short), but a Pensieve-scene doesn't exist.

[Talon87]

No, that was the good one(although very short), but a Pensieve-scene doesn't exist.

So in other words, they changed it in the movie to make it so that Harry reads Snape's mind, rather than Harry sneaking a peek at Snape's thoughts in the Pensieve which Dumbledore leant him. Makes sense -- it's a lot shorter to justify, even if it does sort of fuck with the canon (since Snape is supposed to be impenetrable by both Albus Dumbledore and Lord Voldemort, so it's sort of retarded that a little boy could break into his mind :P).

Am I right? Or did I jump the gun and come to a way incorrect conclusion?

[ForeverFlygon]

Bexically, he's caught off guard, do that might be a reason for Harry suceeding to get into his mind. He says "Protego!", and then there's a pretty quick flashback, showing James in another light than Harry being used to.

I'm not saying anymore specific, because then I'll probably just go on and spoil the whole thing. I mean, you've read it and know it, but having been told beforehand isn't something I want to be responsible for.
*is a guy who complains at most movie spoilers*

[Doppleganger]

Saw it last night. I've been going to the HP movies since the first with my Dad and sister on the premiere or the day and (regrettably) with each successive movie I've become less impressed with the adaption. Apparently a lot of people disliked the first, but compared with the rest of the series it was just perfect.

Book 5, in my view, ties Book 3 for the "casual revealing of major plot points", id est stuff that takes readers a while to get/understand is just blurted out in normal, fast conversation at various points. Like with Book 4, the story is in hyperdrive, and the "visually impressive" scenes are a tad annoying. As in, one of the "biggest" scenes is in the beginning where Harry and company are flying through London on brooms. That scene takes up a minute and a half of screen time, which could have been spent on something more plot-relevant. :|

My sister considered the final battle in the book to be "significantly underwhelming", which I did as well. What was originally a crazy horse battle turned out to be a flash of pretty lights, not unlike something from Star Wars.

[Talon87]

The battle in Book 5's end is pretty dumb in many points. I dislike the whole "one of the Death Eaters heads goes into the Time Jar and turns into a baby's." It's the sick sort of human monstrosity you'd expect to see in Shana, not a Harry Potter book.

[S_M]

I have a battle of wills inside me, I want to read the leak but at the same time I want to wait for Saturday. >>

Curse you Internet.

[Doppleganger]

God dang it I hate all these random HP spoilers. x.X

[Sylar]

Roffle, over at BMG, I've been the cause of people finding the book. xD

Accidentally of course. >>; I posted a link to where the book was, so it's not my fault if people click. :P

[Kasumi Violet]

I've read the first 15 pages. I really doubt I'll read the whole thing before Friday... and I'm going to avoid HP spoilers I think...

- KV

[S_M]

I read the first 350 pgs. or so *shot repetitively* because I couldn't stop reading. >> I need willpower.

[Doppleganger]

Wait, what? Is it the twenty-first on the other side of the world already?

Son of a cracker! :x

[Sylar]

S_M read the leaked version online, as I understand. xd

[Doppleganger]

Oh, I had no idea a manuscript was leaked. God dang, that means there might be some legitimacy to the spoilers and I cannot go browse certain image-boards until it dies down. =_=

Assuming the worst, I've got three events spoiled for me. At best, probably two, give or take when the leak occured. Did it happen last night, or a while ago?

[Sylar]

Don't know when, but it was probably only sometime this week, since that's when the shops got the books.

[S_M]

DeepDiscount.com or somewhere sent out the copies early, so I'm assuming that's where they're from. Scholastic's suing them. :O

I actually have some problems with some of the stuff that I read, one part possibly being a typo, while the other one goes directly against something JKR said (I think). Doing more searching on it.

Edit: SPOILERS

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_poll.cfm

In the scans, it said that every person who had been told the secret was now Secret-Keeper. The above link says otherwise.

Also, when Remus comes to Grimmauld Place, he says to the Mad-Eye Moody jinx thing, "I didn't kill you Albus." Or something to that effect. Why would Dumbledore create a jinx that would activate with Moody's form to work against Snape, especially when Dumbledore trusted Snape?

[Doppleganger]

Don't do a spoiler like that, it's just what Anonymous of Russia did to spoil my visual novel. As this forum works people jump to the last post, which means you hit me with everything I spent the last three days trying to avoid.

Alternatively, you could have said nothing at all.

From now on,

Use:

<color=white><quote=blah>text</quote></color>

f([]) = <>

[S_M]

I'm sorry. >> I forgot about how the forum worked. :/

If it's any consolation at all, (which I doubt, but meh :/), none of that has any real effect on the book. :/ Just little mistakes which could be typos for all I know. I changed it to size1 font, since the white/quote thing only works on the default forum skin.

I'm really sorry. :/ I hate people that spoil stuff for me, and I really didn't mean to do it.

[Doppleganger]

I'm really sorry. :/ I hate people that spoil stuff for me, and I really didn't mean to do it.


Apology accepted - normally, I'm really keen on spoiling myself for stuff, but since the visual novel I mentioned earlier I've sort of undergone a change. Well, I don't really understand it - I guess there's a threshold by which "some" spoiling is good and "a lot" of spoiling is bad. I'm not sure what it is - I'm fully aware of what is to happen in Gurren-Lagann and Geass, for instance, but even if that's all the info available I'm still adverse to reading up entire episodes on blogs.

On the other hand, I'm having a hard time stomaching the discussion topics up at Yotsuba for GL - it's like I was formerly innoculated against being spoiled and now I'm totally vulnerable. Heck, I'm so paranoid about spoiling other people I won't even say the name of the visual novel I played.

Kinda wish things went back to before. :|

[Sylar]

w00t, ordered Deathly Hallows from Asda (English shop, owned by Wal-Mart =P), and from the website, it's just £5 including delivery. =3 In shops it's £9, and you have to travel down there, so I dunno why the website's any different. Oo;

Still, I'm not complaining. Guaranteed delivery by tomorrow to. ^^

[Doppleganger]

When a guy opens his local newspaper ('Sacramento Bee'), reads an article entitled, "Harry Potter fans cast 'selencio' on contents of next series installment", flips to section A10 and reads, in the right-hand column,



Regarding if Harry dies or not, all bets are off the table.


...one gets the impression fate has conspired against me reading this novel unprotected. :cry:

[Blastoise]

...one gets the impression fate has conspired against me reading this novel unprotected. :cry:


Good news, it's true! (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Harry_Potter)

[Kasumi Violet]

I just got done reading the book. There are parts of it that aren't quite smooth or logical, but all and all I found the epilogue very disappointing...

[ZoraJolteon]

I didn't like the epilogue either.

Mollywobbles = own.

[PiccoloNamek]

I did.

Edit: Well, I suppose I do have one little complaint. They didn't say what happened to Luna! She was one of my favorite characters.

[S_M]

I liked the book as a whole. It was odd that only a few chapters took place at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore wasn't there, just because both were somewhat of a given in HP books up til now. Chase and fight scenes were awesome. And go Neville!

I didn't mind the epilogue. Liked it better the second time I read it.

[Kasumi Violet]

Namek- I feel the same way. Maybe she ended up in a love-commune or something else non-traditional that JKR didn't want to put in a children's book (honestly, that girl struck me as queer). At least we know she survived anyway.

[PiccoloNamek]

No way, Luna was too awesome for something like that.

[Another Fan]

Yeah, got the book yesterday, here in Italy. Finished now.

I'm satisfied.

Man, if only I could look into the fandom see all the reactons and predictions over the years. That obviously would be impossible and probably destroy me inside, cause of the magnitude of it.

I liked the book. Read it quicker than the 6th (like two months of on and off reading). I'm not much of a speculator (doesn't help that in the gaps in between each book I spent basically forgetting people's names or big plot elements), so no predictions (the spoiler I got was sort of false, well, I guess it was completely false and the similarities were just good guesses). I hope the next series by JK won't be um... based around the epilogue, as that was quite cheesy enough. But hey, people wouldn't stand not knowing.

Luna, super character, yeah. (I have no idea what a love-commune is)

[Kasumi Violet]

There's nothing wrong with 70's style hippie living. Love-communes are communities that are typically self-sufficent, who reject a lot of societies structures, like marriage. I can see Luna getting anarchistic like that as she matures. Basically she was raised to question everything that was "common knowledge." I don't see why it wouldn't spill over to social conventions.

[Another Fan]

But she's a ravenclaw, she wants to learn about the world with a curious eye. Wouldn't staying in a love commune be sort of boring for her?

[Kasumi Violet]

Why do you think participating in small-community-driven self-sufficiency would be mentally boring? It'd be a lot more interesting than marrying, having kids, and being a homemaker. Lune would make an interesting teacher at Hogwarts, now that I think about it, but it probably won't work out very well, she's not very good at making herself respected.

[PiccoloNamek]

I don't even think such a thing exists within the magical world.

[Doppleganger]

Finished it! And browsed Yotsuba the whole time and did not get spoiled!

Man, I rock. :11

...

As for the novel...the epilogue SUCKED. Very much a major failure. But the book on the whole was good, if a tad predictable. Well, a "tad" is an understatement, quite predictable in fact. Maybe I'm too old for kid's books...

[PiccoloNamek]

What exactly is everyone's problem with the end?

[Doppleganger]

It was like someone's bad fan-fiction had gotten printed in a real Harry Potter book by malicious intent.

[PiccoloNamek]

Oh? I didn't notice.

Well, if you say so.

[Another Fan]

Yeah, the epilogue was as expected. But people are complaining about not knowing what Luna ended up doing, imagine if they didn't know how any of the other characters ended up to be like.

Least now the the fandom can't butcher any characters. So, Harry had recently turned 37 in the epilogue, so Ginny is 36. They had kids around the age of 24, 25 and 26. Anyone catch who Victoire was? The one making out (snogging) with Ted? Ted's 19 by then, so I assume it was one of the Weasley's kids.

But what would you do differently if you were to present most of the main characters in the future? Cause she had to do it or people would be pretty angry I think.

[Lee-san]

Yeah, the epilogue was as expected. But people are complaining about not knowing what Luna ended up doing, imagine if they didn't know how any of the other characters ended up to be like.

Least now the the fandom can't butcher any characters. So, Harry had recently turned 37 in the epilogue, so Ginny is 36. They had kids around the age of 24, 25 and 26. Anyone catch who Victoire was? The one making out (snogging) with Ted? Ted's 19 by then, so I assume it was one of the Weasley's kids.

But what would you do differently if you were to present most of the main characters in the future? Cause she had to do it or people would be pretty angry I think.


the age on their kids is slightly off ;p typo on your side, I guess.

regarding Victoire, since James said she's their cousin, I assume she's Bill's and Fleur's child.

[Another Fan]

Had kids at the age of.

Okay bad syntax. Ginny gave birth to their childern at age of...

I assumed so too, since the name seemed French. Yeah, probably Bill's kid, the name seemed french, but Charlie and George are still alive so you never know.

[Lee-san]

Had kids at the age of.

Okay bad syntax. Ginny gave birth to their childern at age of...

I assumed so too, since the name seemed French. Yeah, probably Bill's kid, the name seemed french, but Charlie and George are still alive so you never know.


ah, alright, I get it now.

Overall, I liked the epilogue; of course it's a little cheesy, but I didn't mind..the two pairings that I liked best happened and it just was a satisfying end to the series.

Soo..speculations on who Draco's wife was? ;D I don't think it's Pansy, don't think he would have married her after she seemed pretty eager to hand Harry out..but I might be way off.

[Doppleganger]

I wasn't reading the story for pairings, or even the battle against Voldemort - I wanted to know more about the wizard world, which might explain why my interest in the stories has diminished since the first three books. Chamber of Secrets remains my favourite, but among most it's the least liked book.

The epilogue was too abrupt, ambiguous, and cheesy (oozing). It also kills most after-the-fact speculation on the seventh book, which is pretty cruel if one asks me. =/

[Sylar]

Everyone keeps saying the epilogue sucked, but look at it this way. At least Daniel Radcliffe will actually look the age of the character he's playing at that point in the 7th film. :P

IMO, JK went over the top with the deaths. >>; Killing both Tonks and Lupin? Now that's just setting up for Theodore Lupin and the Resurrection Stone! xd Especially considering the Renegade-in-his-youth godfather part.

Apart from a few other minor problems, I quite enjoyed the book. =3

[ForeverFlygon]

Edit: Well, I suppose I do have one little complaint. They didn't say what happened to Luna! She was one of my favorite characters.

I agree, I wanted to know wether or not she became a professional Snorkackhunter or the wizarding world's equal to Robert Ripley.

And what's the point with naming your children after your parents? I mean, it happens in all cheesy epilogues, doesn't it (or rather, the two I can think of on the top of my head)? I for one would give them completely different names (and will). It'd feel more like a new start. I mean surely, they'll remember Dumbledore, and James and Lily the would-be grandparents...

Oh, make me shut it, it's 4 AM and still haven't said wether or not I liked the book. I'll say it was 'different'. I'll talk about it properly when I'm awake.

[Doppleganger]

And what's the point with naming your children after your parents? I mean, it happens in all cheesy epilogues, doesn't it (or rather, the two I can think of on the top of my head)? I for one would give them completely different names (and will). It'd feel more like a new start. I mean surely, they'll remember Dumbledore, and James and Lily the would-be grandparents...


Not only was it cheesy, it was dumb as well. Lily and James, Rowling says. The parents who have been dead for god knows how long, the father in particular being a useless jackarse. Well, what about Sirius, eh? Severus got second place behind Albus but I guess the godfather wasn't good enough to become a Potter. Or Dobby. Or Rubeus for crying out loud!

[Sylar]

Calling one of his kid's "Dobby" probably would have been weirder than "Albus". :P

But I agree, if he can call one Albus Severus, he can call the others James Sirius or James Remus or something.

Can't remember any female wizards who really stand out to go with Lily. >>; Lily Nymphadora? xD

[Doppleganger]

The name didn't have to be "Dobby" per se, but something like Dobson with the diminutive as Dobby.

[Waterlight]

"NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH"

That quote made my day. xP

[PiccoloNamek]

You bitch! You biiiiiiiitch!

[Another Fan]

"NOT MY DAUGHTER, YOU BITCH"

That quote made my day. xP


Yeah, that was pretty awesome.

Killing fan speculation, cruel, yes, but worth it to prevent butchering? Definately.


Why do you think participating in small-community-driven self-sufficiency would be mentally boring? It'd be a lot more interesting than marrying, having kids, and being a homemaker. Lune would make an interesting teacher at Hogwarts, now that I think about it, but it probably won't work out very well, she's not very good at making herself respected.


My point was, she wouldn't want to live in one spot. She'd want to explore the world.

And I was pleased to find me right. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959323/

Says Luna travels. Go figure.

[Another Fan]

Can't delete posts here?

[PiccoloNamek]

The author was shooting for “nebulous,� something “poetic.� She wanted the readers to feel as if they were looking at Platform 9¾ through the mist, unable to make out exactly who was there and who was not.


It's weird she should say that, because that's exactly how I imagined it in my mind while reading.

[Doppleganger]

A number of my friends would have been pissed off Rowling didn't put that info in the book and people had to look elsewhere.

She shouldn't have made an epilogue at all in my view, just kept that info for the encyclopedia.

[Talon87]

I just finished 90 minutes ago (~2pm local), and I've been avoiding this thread pretty much until now. Just read all of your replies. Gotta say, I'm shocked at how little you guys are actually discussing the book! :O So allow me to rip in and provide some of my own problems I've been voicing to myself for 60 of the last 90 minutes ...

Severus Snape: Friend or Foe or Commercial Sell-Out?
My first and foremost complaint is J.K. Rowling's treatment of my favorite character in the entire series. First off, Snape did not have nearly enough presence. When I read Chapter 1, I was really excited at how much he was already doing ... and then, he sort of fell of the face of the Earth until the Shrieking Shack 600+ pages later. :| The singular sentences here or there mentioning him (e.g. "Snape's been promoted to Headmaster!") do not count. -_-

Second, I felt that "The Prince's Tale," entertaining as it was for Snape fans, brought nothing new to the table except (a) the proof that Snape was the doe Patronus wizard and (b) that Dumbledore was, undeniably, behind the whole Observatory Tower death in Book 6. Letter A (frankly) wasn't all that important and I thought Rowling kept making too much fuss over it; Letter B was something the fans had demanded and been delivered, so it felt very much like opening a present on Christmas Day that you know you're going to get: you're happy, but you're not surprised. Besides these two letter points, the entirety of the Pensieve adventure was nothing more than what Doppel earlier accused Rowling of frequently doing: spelling out for her dim-witted readers in later books what was obvious to her more astute readers in earlier books. (Case in point, the entire contents of this chapter were pretty much known to anybody with half a brain who read Book 5. Snape loved Lily Potter, big surprise. Snape hated James because he stole Lily, big surprise. Snape hated Harry becausehe reminded him of James & Lily's marriage, big surprise. Snape cherished Harry and protected him because his eyes were so very like his mother's, BIG FUCKING SURPRISE!)

Third, and perhaps most importantly, I thought that Snape's death was of the utmost lameness. Snape is the master Legilimens and Occlumens -- even the Dark Lord was not able to penetrate Snape's mind, ever, and was caught off guard by Harry's revelations in the final fight. So why the fuck could Snape -- who even using Muggle logic was able to see where this conversation was heading!!! -- not read Voldemort's mind and try to at least kill Nagini? Snape knew that betraying Voldemort (as he must, to save his own skin) would be impossible; he knew, as did Dumbledore, that only Harry could kill Voldemort. So why, then, did he not at least try to kill the damned snake? Are we supposed to believe that he just let it roll onto him and bite his neck? What a pussy way to go! :x What the fuck!? :evil: J.K. tried to assuage fans' fears by bringing Snape back into the role of "heroic antihero" (from his damnable rank of "lame fairytale 100% black villain" that she stupidly put upon him in Book 6, the stupid cow :x), but what was even the point if she was just going to have him die so pitifully? Fuck you, Rowling. You shat all over poor Severus Snape. -_-; Twice. (Book 6, and now Book 7)

The Elder Wand, or should we say, the Fickle Stick?
J.K. Rowling seems to believe that I will just curl up in a ball, roll over, and accept her claims as follows:
1 - that the Elder Wand, like any wand, will pass from Master to Master (check)
2 - that the Elder Wand cannot be used against its own Master (hesitant check)
3 - that the Elder Wand can be "won" by simply being snatched out of its Master's hands (NOT CHECK!)

What the fuck. She expects me to believe that Draco Malfoy "beat" Albus Dumbledore and therefore won the Elder Wand's allegiance because he used one Expelliarmus? :? What the hell -- no! I don't accept this retarded logic! :x How can you say that a wizard has been "defeated" just because he's been disarmed? Was Harry defeated any of the times wizards disarmed him? No! Was he "defeated" when he had to hand his wand over to teachers or Ministry officials? No! So why the fuck should we believe for two seconds that, by simply knocking the wand from Dumbledore's grip, Draco became the new Master of the Elder Wand? Or that by ripping the hawthorn wand out of Draco's hands (not even the Elder Wand proper!), Harry had "defeated" Draco and was now the rightful master of the Elder Wand? Absurd! :x Preposterous! :x Ridiculous! :evil:

To make matters worse, Rowling expects me to believe that Harry wresting the hawthorn wand from Draco's clutches constitutes "winning the Mastery over the Elder Wand" but that Voldemort forcing Harry to give himself up and to be struck semi-dead by Avada Kedavra does not constitute a win? :? What the hell. You even said it yourself, J.K. -- "you don't have to kill to get the wand, you just have to defeat its old master." I'd say Voldemort defeated Harry as much as Harry "defeated" Draco. :roll: If you're going to call jumping over a dining room table and grabbing two sticks of wood "winning," then I don't see how you can not call forcing your enemy to give himself up to you "winning."

Finally, we're supposed to believe that Harry (who has never been all that bright in his years at Hogwarts) thought up this genius master plan for goading Voldemort into trying to strike him down one last time? And we're supposed to believe that Voldemort, in his fear and fury, wouldn't exercise caution and try to reconsider? After Harry basically told him why the attack in the Forest had failed, I don't see why Voldemort couldn't put 2 and 2 together and say to Harry, "Here! Catch!" With the Elder Wand back in Harry's hands, Voldemort could then say, "YOINK!", take it back, and say, "Niener niener niener! :P I won! I won!" But whatever. I'm not here to examine plotholes like this so much as the egregious gaps of logic explored above. -_-

The Epilogue
Okay, this is the one point you guys have touched on so far in this discussion: what a letdown the epilogue was. :( First of all ... I half expected Harry to find out that he had been made Hogwarts Headmaster (temporarily) when he walked in to the Headmaster's Office. When that didn't happen, I turned the pages to see if, perhaps, he'd be a Hogwarts professor or headmaster 19 years later. But no. There he was, just a "regular joe" with no profession listed. We don't know if he's at the Ministry ... if he's at another school ... or if he's just staying at home collecting royalties on his biographies. -_- So much for "burning bridges to prevent fanfics," J.K. You might have given us a little more info than this.

And what the hell was up with all of the Potter children bearing names important to Harry but not necessarily Ginny? "Albus Severus" is clearly Harry's idea, and of course so too must "James" and "Lily" be. Where is the child named Arthur? Where is the child named Molly? Why is it that when it comes to naming the kids Harry's family and friends take precedence over Ginny's? Seems rather unfair, doesn't it? :?

Why would a child who is 19 years old be onboard the Hogwarts Express? The fans are speculating that Teddy was kissing Fleur and Bill's daughter, but then that would mean she's 19 too! And in that case, neither of them ought to be onboard the train! Kids ought to be 17 years old at the start of their seventh year at Hogwarts! (With Harry the youngest, all his friends having turned 17 in Book 6.)

Why the fuck didn't Harry's family adopt Ted? :? Sure, he's 19 now, but Harry makes it sound as if they never adopted him into their family despite having him over for dinner four nights a week. What the hell. What child wants a life that inconsistent? :? Kids need the foundation and stability of a loving family ... you'd think somebody would have adopted the boy, and you'd think his godfather to be the prime candidate. Maybe I missed the part about his grandparents (Ted Sr. and Andromeda) taking him in, but I don't remember grandparents being mentioned ...

Why was Malfoy so cold towards Harry? Clearly, he (if not his parents, too) were spared by the Ministry. Harry saved his life twice in Book 7 alone (Room of Requirement, socking a Death Eater on the marble stairs). And he's sure to have even returned the hawthorn wand to Draco since (a) Harry doesn't care what the Elder Wand thinks of him anyway and (b) he prefers to use his original wand he got in Ollivander's 30 years ago. I'm not saying that I can't imagine Malfoy's coldness -- sure, it's quite easily imaginable! But I'd have liked some concrete justification for it! :|

Where was Kreacher? I think a house-elf as set in his ways as Kreacher would not, even 19 years later, be able to live a free masterless life as Dobby had done. You'd think he'd have been with the Potters. Sure, he could be dead, but a mention of that would have been nice; and if he was in fact still alive, it'd have been prudent to see him pushing the luggage cart through the arch with the Potters and wishing his master's children well with tears in his eyes.

Talon's Theory on J.K., Snape, and Dumbledore
Personally, I think that when J.K. Rowling set out to write Book 6 originally, she had this vision in her head of the fanbase around Snape absolutely loving it when the rat-bastard Hogwarts potions professor betrayed Dumbledore and revealed he had been loyal to Voldemort all this time. I really don't think she understood that most of us Snape fans loved him for the (perceived) antihero that he was, neither completely good nor completely villainous, and I really don't buy it for one second when she claims that she had meant it to be a surprise that he was an ally of Dumbledore's all along. Like I say, I don't buy it. :|

I think what really happened is, two years ago when Book 6 came out, J.K. Rowling was offended and shocked by all the vehement comments from previously-loyal fans. She didn't anticipate how poorly they would take the betrayal of Snape, and she found herself in a dilemma.

"Hmm ... what I had wanted to do with HBP, y'see, was to show the little ones that even grown-ups can be mistaken sometimes. I wanted to show them that even the mighty Dumbledore was not infallible, and that in spite of Harry's mounting evidence against Snape, Dumbledore refused to see the truth and died for it. Now ... I understand that the fans are furious over Snape's treatment, but I'm faced with a problem. If I tell them in Book 7 that Snape was actually acting on Dumbledore's orders -- which seems to be the most prevalent and popular demand the fans are writing in on my weblog -- then it will mean that Dumbledore was never really wrong at all. He was right about the Horcruxes; he was right about his guesses behind Tom Riddle's youth; and now he will be proven to be right about Snape as well. In short, my entire goal behind Book 6 will be ruined. :|

So ... here is what I shall do. I shall grant the fans their request, but now -- in Book 7 -- I will take what I already had in my mind for Albus, Aberforth, and Grindelwald and I will concoct this intricate web involving Kendra, Percival, and Ariana, too. I will show Dumbledore in his youth as being 'a mini Voldemort' who had high aspirations for bringing the wizards back out of the closet and subduing the Muggles. I will show him even being guilty in the manslaughter of his poor sister, Ariana. This will maintain Albus Dumbledore as the imperfect man I want him to be, so that children will not mistake him for God or for some other perfect being. This will also allow me to give the fans what they want with Snape. I win, and the fans win."

[Doppleganger]

Snape cherished Harry and protected him because his eyes were so very like his mother's, BIG FUCKING SURPRISE!)


Something was pointed out to me regarding that which I had missed on my run-through - the last thing Snape did before he died was pull Harry close so he could stare into Lily's eyes.


Third, and perhaps most importantly, I thought that Snape's death was of the utmost lameness. Snape is the master Legilimens and Occlumens -- even the Dark Lord was not able to penetrate Snape's mind, ever, and was caught off guard by Harry's revelations in the final fight. So why the fuck could Snape -- who even using Muggle logic was able to see where this conversation was heading!!! -- not read Voldemort's mind and try to at least kill Nagini? Snape knew that betraying Voldemort (as he must, to save his own skin) would be impossible; he knew, as did Dumbledore, that only Harry could kill Voldemort. So why, then, did he not at least try to kill the damned snake? Are we supposed to believe that he just let it roll onto him and bite his neck? What a pussy way to go! :x What the fuck!? :evil: J.K. tried to assuage fans' fears by bringing Snape back into the role of "heroic antihero" (from his damnable rank of "lame fairytale 100% black villain" that she stupidly put upon him in Book 6, the stupid cow :x), but what was even the point if she was just going to have him die so pitifully? Fuck you, Rowling. You shat all over poor Severus Snape. -_-; Twice. (Book 6, and now Book 7)


A lot of characters in the book had pretty bad endings. Snape was so cool, I always wanted to learn more about all the extensive knowledge he possessed, but that wasn't meant to be. :|


What the fuck. She expects me to believe that Draco Malfoy "beat" Albus Dumbledore and therefore won the Elder Wand's allegiance because he used one Expelliarmus? :? What the hell -- no! I don't accept this retarded logic! :x How can you say that a wizard has been "defeated" just because he's been disarmed? Was Harry defeated any of the times wizards disarmed him? No! Was he "defeated" when he had to hand his wand over to teachers or Ministry officials? No! So why the fuck should we believe for two seconds that, by simply knocking the wand from Dumbledore's grip, Draco became the new Master of the Elder Wand? Or that by ripping the hawthorn wand out of Draco's hands (not even the Elder Wand proper!), Harry had "defeated" Draco and was now the rightful master of the Elder Wand? Absurd! :x Preposterous! :x Ridiculous! :evil:

To make matters worse, Rowling expects me to believe that Harry wresting the hawthorn wand from Draco's clutches constitutes "winning the Mastery over the Elder Wand" but that Voldemort forcing Harry to give himself up and to be struck semi-dead by Avada Kedavra does not constitute a win? :? What the hell. You even said it yourself, J.K. -- "you don't have to kill to get the wand, you just have to defeat its old master." I'd say Voldemort defeated Harry as much as Harry "defeated" Draco. :roll: If you're going to call jumping over a dining room table and grabbing two sticks of wood "winning," then I don't see how you can not call forcing your enemy to give himself up to you "winning."

Finally, we're supposed to believe that Harry (who has never been all that bright in his years at Hogwarts) thought up this genius master plan for goading Voldemort into trying to strike him down one last time? And we're supposed to believe that Voldemort, in his fear and fury, wouldn't exercise caution and try to reconsider? After Harry basically told him why the attack in the Forest had failed, I don't see why Voldemort couldn't put 2 and 2 together and say to Harry, "Here! Catch!" With the Elder Wand back in Harry's hands, Voldemort could then say, "YOINK!", take it back, and say, "Niener niener niener! :P I won! I won!" But whatever. I'm not here to examine plotholes like this so much as the egregious gaps of logic explored above. -_-


I think it had something to do with "Wizard's Duels" which put the wands up for ante when a person was defeated. That doesn't explain Voldemort's logic in killing Snape, though.


Okay, this is the one point you guys have touched on so far in this discussion: what a letdown the epilogue was. :( First of all ... I half expected Harry to find out that he had been made Hogwarts Headmaster (temporarily) when he walked in to the Headmaster's Office. When that didn't happen, I turned the pages to see if, perhaps, he'd be a Hogwarts professor or headmaster 19 years later. But no. There he was, just a "regular joe" with no profession listed. We don't know if he's at the Ministry ... if he's at another school ... or if he's just staying at home collecting royalties on his biographies. -_- So much for "burning bridges to prevent fanfics," J.K. You might have given us a little more info than this.


Rowling explained in interviews what happened, which angered me since I should have asked, "why not put it in the gosh darn book"?!


And what the hell was up with all of the Potter children bearing names important to Harry but not necessarily Ginny? "Albus Severus" is clearly Harry's idea, and of course so too must "James" and "Lily" be. Where is the child named Arthur? Where is the child named Molly? Why is it that when it comes to naming the kids Harry's family and friends take precedence over Ginny's? Seems rather unfair, doesn't it? :?


Dumbest part of the whole book in my view. "Scorpius" was pretty nice for Draco's son, though.


Why was Malfoy so cold towards Harry? Clearly, he (if not his parents, too) were spared by the Ministry. Harry saved his life twice in Book 7 alone (Room of Requirement, socking a Death Eater on the marble stairs). And he's sure to have even returned the hawthorn wand to Draco since (a) Harry doesn't care what the Elder Wand thinks of him anyway and (b) he prefers to use his original wand he got in Ollivander's 30 years ago. I'm not saying that I can't imagine Malfoy's coldness -- sure, it's quite easily imaginable! But I'd have liked some concrete justification for it! :|


Pride? Some people never change.


Where was Kreacher? I think a house-elf as set in his ways as Kreacher would not, even 19 years later, be able to live a free masterless life as Dobby had done. You'd think he'd have been with the Potters. Sure, he could be dead, but a mention of that would have been nice; and if he was in fact still alive, it'd have been prudent to see him pushing the luggage cart through the arch with the Potters and wishing his master's children well with tears in his eyes.


I liked him since he first appeared. 'twas really disappointing to see him get the short end of the treatment willow. :|


Personally, I think that when J.K. Rowling set out to write Book 6 originally, she had this vision in her head of the fanbase around Snape absolutely loving it when the rat-bastard Hogwarts potions professor betrayed Dumbledore and revealed he had been loyal to Voldemort all this time. I really don't think she understood that most of us Snape fans loved him for the (perceived) antihero that he was, neither completely good nor completely villainous, and I really don't buy it for one second when she claims that she had meant it to be a surprise that he was an ally of Dumbledore's all along. Like I say, I don't buy it. :|


Same problem Eiichiro Oda has nowadays - DON'T TRY TO PLEASE THE FANS. If there's anything we can compliment the epilogue on, it's as a gigantic "fudge you" to all the fan-fiction writers who scream and rave and rant.

I think what really happened is, two years ago when Book 6 came out, J.K. Rowling was offended and shocked by all the vehement comments from previously-loyal fans. She didn't anticipate how poorly they would take the betrayal of Snape, and she found herself in a dilemma.


So ... here is what I shall do. I shall grant the fans their request, but now -- in Book 7 -- I will take what I already had in my mind for Albus, Aberforth, and Grindelwald and I will concoct this intricate web involving Kendra, Percival, and Ariana, too. I will show Dumbledore in his youth as being 'a mini Voldemort' who had high aspirations for bringing the wizards back out of the closet and subduing the Muggles. I will show him even being guilty in the manslaughter of his poor sister, Ariana. This will maintain Albus Dumbledore as the imperfect man I want him to be, so that children will not mistake him for God or for some other perfect being. This will also allow me to give the fans what they want with Snape. I win, and the fans win."


Even if that was the case, I did like Rowling's portrayal of Dumbledore as "flawed", but if she was trying to make a world that emphasized "all people are flawed" she kind of shot herself in the foot by elevating Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, and almost everyone who survived the Battle of Hogwarts to demigod status. It's like, "nobody is perfect. Well, except the main characters".

[Talon87]

One of the things I've enjoyed about Rowling's books up until now is that if you examine them, lightly, for Christian symbolism, you won't find too much, and that if you examine them lightly for Nazi symbolism you only find a bit here or there. (e.g. Voldemort wants to spare "blond haired, blue eyed pure bloods" wink wink) However, the end of Book 7 just felt so drippingly Christian-symbolic. :| "Harry, the Chosen One, has died for your [strike:88a55]sins[/strike:88a55] chance to avoid suffering. Because of his noble sacrifice, you are all, all of you, forever protected from [strike:88a55]Satan's[/strike:88a55] Voldemort's magic." I'm just glad Rowling didn't have Harry tell his friends that he could only stay for a little while before having to go back to "King's Cross." That would have really been going overboard. :| And ... I just realized :x, ack, "King's Cross" ... the One King, our Lord in Heaven, who went to die on the Cross for our sins ... ah fuck. Ah fuck. :x God dammit, Rowling.

Regarding Snape and the eye scene, dude, I would have thought that was obvious, especially after you read the immediate-following chapter "The Prince's Tale." Thankfully, that chapter was at least mildly entertaining to read (as opposed to being a put off), but still ... it was really quite anticlimactic for me. :( I was expecting a lot less memories of Snape at Hogwarts trying to be with Lily and a lot more of Snape's entire life, e.g. his Death Eater days, his thoughts from every time he's saved Harry in the various books (e.g. what he was thinking when he made the Potions challenge for Book 1, what he was thinking at the Whomping Willow + Shrieking Shack in Book 3, what he was thinking while he stayed behind at Hogwarts in Book 4 while the other Death Eaters returned to Voldemort's side, and, perhaps most importantly, what was coursing through his brain at the very moment he burst out onto the Observatory Tower).

Regarding killing too many people off, yeah, no shit. Hedwig and Dobby's deaths felt very emotional and real, but Fred's, Lupin's, and Tonks didn't feel really special at all -- it could have just as easily (and arbitrarily) been McGonagoll or George Weasley or Dean Thomas.

You just reminded me of something, though ... for a guy who recruited the giants to his cause, Voldemort sure didn't have very many! :x Two!? TWO!? What the hell. Two giants. What happened to the entire valley of giants Hagrid found? They just decided it'd be best to stay behind except for two of their own to risk life and limb in some wizard's war?

I've also just remembered another plothole that bothered me ... Griphook and Gryffindor's sword! I mean, I'm all for Neville pulling the sword out of the Sorting Hat, but not without a proper explanation! Did Griphook put it back in the hat (somehow!?). Did he really "steal" it when he ran off with it at Gringotts? or was his intention, from the very start, to merely make it look like he was stealing it while he was actually keeping it safe for its next bit of use at Gryffindor hands?

And another plothole that bothered me ... Rowling finally did a good job in Book 6 of showing us an example of "a good Slytherin" in Horace Slughorn. He has all the qualities the Sorting Hat says Slytherins have, yet he was a good man with a good heart. Why the hell were there not more Slytherins like him? I know it's her universe and she is free to do with it whatever the hell she wants, but I really have trouble admiring J.K.'s writing style when she so pointedly beats up on Slytherin House over and over and over and over. It's like she may as well come out and say, "Gryffindors are the best. Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws make for good cheerleaders. And Slytherins suck." :x

[Doppleganger]

And ... I just realized :x, ack, "King's Cross" ... the One King, our Lord in Heaven, who went to die on the Cross for our sins ... ah fuck. Ah fuck. :x God dammit, Rowling.


Haha, oh wow! "i lol'd" at that, I did. :lol:


Regarding Snape and the eye scene, dude, I would have thought that was obvious, especially after you read the immediate-following chapter "The Prince's Tale."


At that point I was just trying to finish it as soon as possible, I wasn't thinking too much about the novel. I actually liked the beginning of the novel a lot more than the end, not just because of the popcorn deaths but I liked how the whole wizarding world turned into a warzone and Harry's magic had to be put to practical use. Who would have imagined the "super rare/dangerous" Polyjuice Potion would be used so frequently in the book, to such great effect? In that sense it's a bit silly since I would have expected Gringotts and the Ministry of Magic to have better defenses against the potion, but the practical use theme did impress me.


Regarding killing too many people off, yeah, no shit. Hedwig and Dobby's deaths felt very emotional and real, but Fred's, Lupin's, and Tonks didn't feel really special at all -- it could have just as easily (and arbitrarily) been McGonagoll or George Weasley or Dean Thomas.


I think Rowling was bad-mouthed for the carbon-copy setup deaths of Dumbledore and Sirius in two consecutive books that she tried to only get rid of the expendable folks. When I got to the chapter, "Fallen Hero" I was really concerned for Hagrid, but he turned out fine but didn't get a proper ending! Instead, really awesome characters just got shot up as cannon fodder.


You just reminded me of something, though ... for a guy who recruited the giants to his cause, Voldemort sure didn't have very many! :x Two!? TWO!? What the hell. Two giants. What happened to the entire valley of giants Hagrid found? They just decided it'd be best to stay behind except for two of their own to risk life and limb in some wizard's war?


I dunno, I guess giants didn't romp around for the same reason there weren't a lot of dragons on Voldemort's side - too tough to travel. Being magically resistant, I doubt they could be teleported, so they had to get to Hogwarts on foot.


I've also just remembered another plothole that bothered me ... Griphook and Gryffindor's sword! I mean, I'm all for Neville pulling the sword out of the Sorting Hat, but not without a proper explanation! Did Griphook put it back in the hat (somehow!?). Did he really "steal" it when he ran off with it at Gringotts? or was his intention, from the very start, to merely make it look like he was stealing it while he was actually keeping it safe for its next bit of use at Gryffindor hands?


Yeah, that sucked. Griphook ended up getting shafted for all his efforts with Neville taking back the sword. The whole, "Harry Potter is an unusual wizard" plot-point disappeared after Griphook vanished.


And another plothole that bothered me ... Rowling finally did a good job in Book 6 of showing us an example of "a good Slytherin" in Horace Slughorn. He has all the qualities the Sorting Hat says Slytherins have, yet he was a good man with a good heart. Why the hell were there not more Slytherins like him? I know it's her universe and she is free to do with it whatever the hell she wants, but I really have trouble admiring J.K.'s writing style when she so pointedly beats up on Slytherin House over and over and over and over. It's like she may as well come out and say, "Gryffindors are the best. Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws make for good cheerleaders. And Slytherins suck." :x


Slughorn was indeed awesome, I had no idea why Rowling made the Slytherins chicken out against Voldemort. On that line of thinking, also, what was with those Acromantula? Hagrid spent so much time caring for beasts, I would have thought Rowling's overall message was that "kindness prevails", as we saw with Grawp, but the Acromantula turned on him and became an ally of the Death Eaters, which struck me as odd since they're not naturally malicious, just hungry.

[Talon87]

Actually, the way I interpreted was as follows ...

Somewhere in the final chapters, Rowling specifies that the acromantula left the forest on account of the Death Eaters. She doesn't clarify if they were fleeing for safety or were Imperiused or what, but I assumed that they were just fleeing for safety in general. Considering that Voldemort made his base of operations where Aragog had once lived, I'm guessing that his thinking was, "I'll have the giants cause chaos in the Forest and force the acromantula out. They'll run towards the castle and then instinctively turn on whatever they see as a food source or enemy. We'll stay put here since no beast nor wizard will come this deep into the forest, and certainly not if he knows there are acromantula about." Or something. *shrug*

And having just re-read Book 6 before reading Book 7, I can remind you that in the chapter where Hagrid buries Aragog, he tells Harry that the acromantulas all turned on him and tried to eat him when he and Fang went to fetch Aragog's body. Hagrid seems surprised, and Harry is half-smirking half-"ARE YOU INSANE!?" in his head at Hagrid's surprise over the acromantula treachery, as he remembers that Aragog specifically told him and Ron (in Book 2), (paraphrased) "My children do not eat Hagrid on my command. But I will not deny them a chance for feeding tonight. Good-bye, friends of Hagrid." So ... yeah. The acromantula have no loyalty towards Hagrid whatsoever, and this is why they attacked him + he wasn't able to stop them.

[Doppleganger]

Somewhere in the final chapters, Rowling specifies that the acromantula left the forest on account of the Death Eaters. She doesn't clarify if they were fleeing for safety or were Imperiused or what, but I assumed that they were just fleeing for safety in general. Considering that Voldemort made his base of operations where Aragog had once lived, I'm guessing that his thinking was, "I'll have the giants cause chaos in the Forest and force the acromantula out. They'll run towards the castle and then instinctively turn on whatever they see as a food source or enemy. We'll stay put here since no beast nor wizard will come this deep into the forest, and certainly not if he knows there are acromantula about." Or something. *shrug*


The Acromantula struck me as being as blood-thirsty as the Orcish Hordes, they would have swarmed Voldemort's forces no matter how powerful he is. How large the Forbidden Forest isn't specified, but Rowling said Fluffy (the three headed dog) was released in there, and there must be beasties big enough for Fluffy and the Acromantula to eat without starving to death - with such a huge colony, it struck me as totally implausible that Voldemort could have stopped them. Giants? Giants might be magically resistant and huge, but human beings can die from a swarm of wasp stings so I doubt that Giants would have been able to stop a vicious, endless horde of Acromantula spawn rampaging all around. There's nothing those beasts fear except for the Basilisk, so why didn't they fight to the last spider?

[PiccoloNamek]

Gotta say, I'm shocked at how little you guys are actually discussing the book!


This is because doing so only leads to over-analysis and bad feeling. I don't pick apart books, just like I don't pick apart the music I listen to.

I will say one thing though, some of your logic seems very self-serving and designed to prove your own points, and that you are trying to see what you want to see. Like this:


... I just realized Mad, ack, "King's Cross" ... the One King, our Lord in Heaven, who went to die on the Cross for our sins ... ah fuck. Ah fuck. Mad God dammit, Rowling.


Come on, you're just grabbing at straws now. Personally, I thought the train-station-as-limbo was excellent.

[Talon87]

Putting straws to the side, IT WAS SO CLICHÉ! :x It was so overdone! I HATED that chapter, except for the chance to get to hear some solid answers from Albus Dumbledore one last time. Then Rowling had to go and be "cutesy wootsy" and introduce the possibility that Harry was imagining all of this, and then she had to take one step further (as if having one shoe in the poopy toilet wasn't enough!) and introduce The Matrix-theory all over again with her silly comment of Dumbledore's, "... but what difference does that make? [Whether I'm real or in your head? It's all real, Harry. What you perceive is what you define as real.]"

*sigh*

[PiccoloNamek]

Or, what he meant was, despite the fact that it was occurring in Harry's mind, what had just transpired was indeed an actual visitation by Dumbledore, and not an elaborate hallucination.

[Talon87]

Or, what he meant was, despite the fact that it was occurring in Harry's mind, what had just transpired was indeed an actual visitation by Dumbledore, and not an elaborate hallucination.

That makes no sense (in the English language), though. I get what you're trying to argue philosophically, but in terms of actual word usage, you cannot suggest that somebody "is communicating with a ghost just in their mind, and they see before them a train station and a crying baby beneath a chair, but that none of it can be called 'hallucination'." You can't have it both ways. :| You can't tell me, "Harry's not really at King's Cross .......... but he's not imagining it, either." He either is there or he isn't. Is there or isn't. Very simple. Either his eyes are showing him what is actually (photo-optically) before him, in which case we would say "he is not imagining things," or his eyes are not showing him what is actually before him, what he is seeing on his visual cortex is something completely different, and thus "he is imagining the scene."

[PiccoloNamek]

I think that you're thinking about it like a muggle, dude. ;)

[Talon87]

Oh, har har. >> Where is my pen again? ...

[strike:9d5d8]DEUS EX MACHINA LIKE NONE OTHER, DUDE[/strike:9d5d8] Don't be silly, Namek. :P

[Another Fan]

You're insane Talon. No seriously.

Nah, you're not but come on, you think JK came up for the plot of the seventh book because she was taken aback by her fans? No way.

I'm sure everyone already told you why you are just being silly pointing out plot-holes that aren't even that problematic.

I loved Prince's Tale. Why? Cause it was a tragedy set in motion as never before. Sure, it was obvious, but did you expect Snape to have loved Lily since they were childern? I mean come on.

Also, defeating means, in this case, having taken the wand without being given it.

Oh, and JK said that she wanted to give more in the epilogue, but felt it was too forced. But I posted an article where she tells you where Harry and everyone else works. Oh, and Ted lives with his grandmother, who is still alive. And he probably was just seeing someone off when he was at the express.

Edit: Okay, damn, read the comments, people are rooting you on. Just enjoy the book Talon. JK was probably doing bible symbolic images unconsciously, and the main characters were not at all demigod. Did you read Ron's chapter?

Edit Edit: Oh thank god Namek. I for one feel so incredibly sad every time I think of how horribly tragic did Snape's love for Lily turn out.

Edit Edit Edit: Oh, and real but in his head? Yeah, Dumbledore visited him, in his head. That's pretty much it.

Edit Edit Edit Edit: I guess the reason I'm being so passionate is cause I have been looking at amazingly pretty final book fan art all day, most of which makes me cry.

[PiccoloNamek]

Or, what he meant was, despite the fact that it was occurring in Harry's mind, what had just transpired was indeed an actual visitation by Dumbledore, and not an elaborate hallucination.

That makes no sense (in the English language), though. I get what you're trying to argue philosophically, but in terms of actual word usage, you cannot suggest that somebody "is communicating with a ghost just in their mind, and they see before them a train station and a crying baby beneath a chair, but that none of it can be called 'hallucination'." You can't have it both ways. :| You can't tell me, "Harry's not really at King's Cross .......... but he's not imagining it, either." He either is there or he isn't. Is there or isn't. Very simple. Either his eyes are showing him what is actually (photo-optically) before him, in which case we would say "he is not imagining things," or his eyes are not showing him what is actually before him, what he is seeing on his visual cortex is something completely different, and thus "he is imagining the scene."

You know, I've been thinking about this, and I still believe it was not a hallucination per se. Webster defines hallucination as "perception of objects with no reality usually arising from disorder of the nervous system or in response to drugs". Perception of objects with no reality. Disorder of the nervous system. I don't think either of those criteria applies to Harry. It could be argued that what Harry was experiencing was indeed real; he was, at that moment, dead (or half-dead, if you prefer) and literally between worlds, in a state between living and dying. Remember, Dumbledore said that if Harry boarded one of the trains, he could go "On". That is, he would die fully and move on to the next life. The fact that he has the option of making such a decision proves the reality of the situation, despite it being in his mind, or, in my interpretation, in the spirit.

Also, a personal theory I have, is that perceptions of limbo vary from person to person; Harry's just happened to be a train station, one he knew very well. Not everyone who is in-between will see King's Cross. Also, in my opinion, when you're in the spirit like that, perceptions are of an entirely different nature, and things like visual cortices have no real meaning, and even if they did, the information being sent to the cortex still has a legitimate source, rather than being generated from nothing, or from some kind of disorder (or chemical) as would be the case in a real hallucination. You could say that if it was all in his brain, that his brain was still receiving legitimate sensory input from the spirit realm and from Dumbledore's ghost. Just because the input wasn't coming from the normal sources doesn't necessarily mean it is any less real.

That's how I see it any way.

[Talon87]

So you no longer believe the soul and the mind are one? Or are you suspending your notions of human identity for the time being while reading a series of books clearly written by a woman who believes, amongst many other classically Christian things, in an afterlife?

[PiccoloNamek]

Of course there is no such thing as a separate "soul". But I am arguing within the context of the HP universe, where souls do exist.

[Talon87]

Okay, good. *phews a sigh of relief* I was afraid there for a second that Bible Camp was getting to your head.

........ I know what I've just said must sound horribly callous to Christians reading this post, but rest assured, I'm just saying that I approve of Namek's belief, as I share it, that the "soul" is nothing more than what earlier philosophers struggled to describe as the human identity, i.e. the mind, i.e. something which I believe quite strongly to be 100% stored in the brain and 100% defined by the brain's physiochemical actions.

[PiccoloNamek]

I was afraid there for a second that Bible Camp was getting to your head.


Certainly not. I'm still as skeptical and atheistic as ever, although I pretend to be a believer in order to maintain my employment. Sometimes it takes all of my energy not to blurt out things such as "What!?" and "What a load of bullshit.", etc.

I suppose I could say I do believe in a "soul", of sorts. It is the sum total of all of our thoughts, feelings, emotions, memories, sensory perceptions and even consciousness itself. All of these come together to form something that we call our "self", and this is my concept of what a soul is. I believe that my soul is real and exists, but I also believe that the moment my brain ceases to function, my soul will dissolve into nothing.

[Sylar]

Severus Snape: Friend or Foe or Commercial Sell-Out?
*Rant Here, too long to quote*

Do you...have a Snape fetish? xd Snape's a classic Anti-Hero, and if you read Marvel comics, you'll realise he's like the...I dunno, Deadpool of the Harry Potter series. Which is good. :O Talon, I think you just expected too much from a CHILDREN'S novel. You need to remember, this book series was aimed at 10-13 year olds, and if you still read it in your 20s, that's because you've followed the series from a younger age. JK was trying to make it a good story for the kids, so of course she had to redeem Snape, otherwise the kids would be wondering why he'd saved Harry's life so many times.

The Elder Wand, or should we say, the Fickle Stick?
*2nd rant* xd

I think the point was that if you get away with the wand, as Dumbledore/Draco/Harry did, then you become it's new master. Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald, left with the wand. Draco defeated Dumbledore, left with the wand. Harry defeated Draco (kinda >>), left with the wand. Ollivander explained it at some point I think.

And what the hell was up with all of the Potter children bearing names important to Harry but not necessarily Ginny? "Albus Severus" is clearly Harry's idea, and of course so too must "James" and "Lily" be. Where is the child named Arthur? Where is the child named Molly? Why is it that when it comes to naming the kids Harry's family and friends take precedence over Ginny's? Seems rather unfair, doesn't it? :?

Harry had a fetish for Dumbledore, Snape and his parents. I find it kinda weird that the names Albus and Severus where in the same name. "You're named after two of the previous headmasters of Hogwarts...and your second name killed your first name!"

Maybe I missed the part about his grandparents (Ted Sr. and Andromeda) taking him in, but I don't remember grandparents being mentioned ...

If I'm not mistaken, Ted Sr was killed when he was on the run. I think that after he met with Griphook and Dean Thomas, the Snatchers(?) killed him or something.

Why was Malfoy so cold towards Harry? Clearly, he (if not his parents, too) were spared by the Ministry. Harry saved his life twice in Book 7 alone (Room of Requirement, socking a Death Eater on the marble stairs). And he's sure to have even returned the hawthorn wand to Draco since (a) Harry doesn't care what the Elder Wand thinks of him anyway and (b) he prefers to use his original wand he got in Ollivander's 30 years ago. I'm not saying that I can't imagine Malfoy's coldness -- sure, it's quite easily imaginable! But I'd have liked some concrete justification for it! :|

If somebody you absolutely despise saves your life, you're going to like it, but not as much as you would if somebody you liked saved you. Also, I didn't think he was cold to him in the Epilogue. I just thought he looked over with a kind of, "knowing" look, as to say thanks to Harry or something. Maybe I just wasn't concentrating. xd

Where was Kreacher? I think a house-elf as set in his ways as Kreacher would not, even 19 years later, be able to live a free masterless life as Dobby had done. You'd think he'd have been with the Potters. Sure, he could be dead, but a mention of that would have been nice; and if he was in fact still alive, it'd have been prudent to see him pushing the luggage cart through the arch with the Potters and wishing his master's children well with tears in his eyes.

Dead. Probably. He was already an ages old house-elf, another 19 years probably did him in.

And that's all I can be bothered to respond to. xd

[ForeverFlygon]

Talon, rant a bit more and you'll soon have enough for a whole book on the subject :P

I'm all for just reading the book though. A reason I never speculated too much in the coming books (although I would be lying if I said I didn't wonder). Remember that Rowling had this planned, and I don't think she'd change anything because of fan opinions. Although that would of course depend on the amount of fans, but still.

And about the symbolism, it could be because she wrote about what she thinks is bad and good, like Namek said.

Ah, what the heck I'm writing probably doesn't make any sense anyways. Somehow I only get the urge to reply half-heartedly after midnight. My point, lost somewhere on the way, though, was that I read books, and in whatever way they end, that is how they end. I mean, I was dissappointed with the ending, but it is a childrens book after all (at least from what I consider children), like Joe said.

Meh, someone just shoot me. >>

[Talon87]

Just because the Lorax is a children's book doesn't mean I'm prohibited from voicing my disappointment with it. :? The same goes for Harry Potter, but people seem to forget that. They also seem to forget that J.K. Rowling is a brilliant author who is still susceptible to many of the same weaknesses found in other talented writers of the past. People seem to forget that you don't have to be a professional writer yourself to be entitled to an opinion of what works well and what doesn't work well for writing stories, i.e. you don't always have to be a medical doctor to know the difference between a wise surgical decision and a stupid one. Sometimes a stupid decision is simply that: stupid. And any fool can tell.

[Another Fan]

Just because the Lorax is a children's book doesn't mean I'm prohibited from voicing my disappointment with it. :? The same goes for Harry Potter, but people seem to forget that. They also seem to forget that J.K. Rowling is a brilliant author who is still susceptible to many of the same weaknesses found in other talented writers of the past. People seem to forget that you don't have to be a professional writer yourself to be entitled to an opinion of what works well and what doesn't work well for writing stories, i.e. you don't always have to be a medical doctor to know the difference between a wise surgical decision and a stupid one. Sometimes a stupid decision is simply that: stupid. And any fool can tell.


Good analogy Talon. for once

But hey, I get what you are going at, but some can just enjoy the book for face value. So, you liked the book though, right?

[Wayne]

Meh after seeing the fifth movie I read the last two books back to back. The last book needed something more for the ending like Harry punching or at least slapping Dumbledore in the face. >> *shot* jk but yeah the last book was cool. I especially loved when they escaped the wedding and were found by death eaters, dunno why.

[Talon87]

But hey, I get what you are going at, but some can just enjoy the book for face value. So, you liked the book though, right?
Yeah. I liked it the same way I looked Book 6. First 80% made me think "THIS IS GOING TO BE AWE-SUH-HOME! :D" Final 20% was a downer, so the overall grade went from A+ to like B+.

For Book 6, I'd say the turning point (for me) is when Dumbledore has to start drinking the potion in the cave. Up until that moment, awesome. As in, I repeatedly thought aloud, "This is the best Harry Potter book ever! :D" when I read it in Summer 2005. But from that part of "The Cave" onward, it almost felt like a different writer took control of J.K. and made her write their dream fanfic. :?

For Book 7, I felt the turning point was Harry concluding that the diadem must be the tiara he put on the bust in Book 6 in the Room of Requirement. Again, up until that point, I thought Book 7 was pretty fantastic -- but I could already tell (even then) that it was going down the same exact path of Greatness and Weakness that Book 6 had done two years prior. :| When I got to the part about the tiara, I thought J.K. was patting herself too smugly on the back with her claim that "Only Voldemort would be so arrogant as to think that only he knew about the Room." Never mind his arrogance -- Draco Malfoy used the room in Book 6, and various Death Eaters (including the Carrows) had passed through it to get into Hogwarts. You expect me to believe for 2 seconds that the Dark Lord would not have read their minds to find out precisely what happened that night? :?


I think one of J.K. Rowling's greatest strengths as an author (and indeed a strength she is so strong in, sort of like how Rock Lee is with taijutsu in Naruto, that she is off the charts) is her ability to use so few words in order to vividly describe a visual, aural scene to her readers. Every time I pick up one of her books, I am amazed at how in less than 200 words she is able to make me perfectly see a scene as if I am watching a 21st Century-caliber movie. There are authors who struggle(d) their entire lives with this problem. This being stated, I would have to give the award for "most visual scene" in Book 7 to the chapter where the kids go to see Xenophilius. It was just so insane, and the way she described the way the floor goes out from under the kids like a pancake was just so visualizable in my mind ... it was great. I am itching to see that scene in theaters, even though I know it'll be a letdown for me the same way the Room of Requirement was a (MASSIVE) letdown in Movie 5.

[PiccoloNamek]

Never mind his arrogance -- Draco Malfoy used the room in Book 6, and various Death Eaters (including the Carrows) had passed through it to get into Hogwarts. You expect me to believe for 2 seconds that the Dark Lord would not have read their minds to find out precisely what happened that night?


1. Like Snape said, you cannot simply read someone's mind like a book. Not even Voldemort.

2. The Room of requirement that the other people saw might not have been the same one that Voldemort saw when he used it, and even if it was, it was probably very different from how he remembered it, with more and more stuff piling up over the years, and even the structure of the room itself changing to add more space for the extra junk.

[Talon87]

For the diadem to be in the room as Harry saw it, it must be the room as Voldemort saw it. (We know this because the diadem did not appear in the room when it was in Dumbledore's Army-form or when it was in Neville's Treehouse-form. This proves that an item, when left behind in the Room of Requirement, can only be found again when that same version of the Room of Requirement is re-entered.) For the cabinet Malfoy et al traveled through to be in the room as Harry saw it, it would have to be in the room with all the rubbish, i.e. the room as Voldemort saw it.

The point is, all three boys (Harry, Draco, and Tom) saw the same Room of Requirement: the one that houses things which people say "I need a place to hide this." While you could say that the junk wasn't as numerous or wasn't in the same piles in the 1940s/50s as it was in the 1990s (during Harry's Hogwarts days, now confirmed to be Autumn 1991 - June 1997 because he did not return for Schoolyear 7), I'd still argue that it was and I'd remain pretty resolute in that opinion. :| Even if J.K. herself tried to tell me, "Talon, child, ... the Room has changed its appearance over the years," I would say she ought to have penciled that in to her final manuscript. :|

[Another Fan]

Aw, sucks about the Room. I haven't seen the Harry Potter movies besides the first one cause of that sort of stuff, but I have considered seeing the most recent one.

Yeah? I don't think that really is a big point. I mean, Malfoy had made several mistakes (by Voldemort's standards) and he survived the story, if Voldemort was that reliant on reading minds, Malfoy'd be dead. Nah, I don't think he would check, he was rather busy.

I imagined it completely full of garbage.

[Talon87]

So did I.

Well, not garbage so much. I imagined it containing piles and piles of papers and books reaching to the ceilings, with paper (bound or loose-leaf) accounting for like 50% of the material in there. I pictured the rest as the way one pictures a junkyard -- bicycles (only in their case broomsticks), pots and pans (cauldrons), fridges and cabinets (wizarding chests and cabinets), etc. etc. all stuffed in there. But I imagined them being in like "islands of rubbish" with aisles to walk between. Not perfectly straight aisles, mind you, but still a sort of Wal-Mart / ASDA feel to it.

But more or less, I think what I've just described is similar to your view. Not different.

As for the Room of Requirement in its "Dumbledore's Army" form for Movie 5 ... the way the kids were shown "learning Defense against the Dark Arts-magic" was really unimpressive in my opinion. In the book, I pictured Harry as more of a polite drill sergeant addressing the entire group standing in military rank formation (shoulder to shoulder, arms at the sides, faces straight ahead, one row). Then, after lecturing them and maybe demonstrating with one kid, he'd dismiss them to get into pairs and practice for themselves. Instead, in the movie, he sounded like the most pussy-footed teacher ever and was just weaving his way in between the kids who were left to try and figure shit out for themselves until he got to them. It was ... really not impressive. >> The movie Harry TOTALLY did not deserve Cho Chang's "~You're a really good teacher, Harry...~" compliment while the book Harry did.

[Another Fan]

Yeah, pretty much.

But did Voldemort know that it was the room of requirement and the same as the hiding room he had when he hid it?

[Talon87]

But did Voldemort know that it was the room of requirement and the same as the hiding room he had when he hid it?
That's irrelevant -- when performing Legilimency on somebody, he wouldn't be trying to fetch the [strike:036bb]appellate[/strike:036bb] name for the room in which his subjects infiltrated Hogwarts. He'd be fetching their visual and aural memories. He'd be watching the scene unfold before him.

Joe does raise a fair point that Rowling made it clear that Legilimency is not an exact science and is more like going fishing ("you may get something, but you never know what exactly it is that you're going to find"). But I can't seem to remember which character said this. And, imo, it matters greatly. If Harry said it, we can dismiss this from the canon immediately (because he was a shitty Legilimens and Occlumens!). If Snape said it or Voldemort himself said it, then I'd give it more credence.

And apparently, I'm not allowed to use "appellate" as a synonym for "name." Even though that's precisely what it means etymologically! >_< From the French appeler [sp, it's been years] which in Japanese is yobu 呼� ... "to call" (as in to call a computer 'Betty')

[Another Fan]

Did Malfoy or the others specifically focus on the statue and thing? Cause if they didn't, they may have forgotten, or just rushed by it to quickly to notice, even for Voldemort, prowling in their minds.