Reading from Beginning-End-Middle

[Raptor Jesus]

Have any of you done that? Reading the beginning, skipping to the end, and then filling in the empty space in between?

So I got into an argument with a friend about it. I was reading a manga and I read Volume 1, then 6 and 7 (because I didn't have 2 through 5 on me) and he kept screaming to me, "OMG! YOU RUINED THE STORY FOR YOURSELF!" While I don't normally do this, this isn't the first time and I don't see why it's so horrible.

To me, it gives me more reason to read a book/watch a series. There have been plenty of times where I read a book or watched a show where I didn't pay attention to things because it looked uninteresting. But then this giant event happens and you don't realize until you re-read/re-watch that there were clues to that event long ago. To me, knowing a spoiler doesn't ruin anything for me, but can sometimes pique my interest in it. It gives me more reason to read/watch with more intensity because I wanted to spot every detail that would lead to the later event.

I'm not arguing to do it every time, but sometimes it isn't a horrible thing.

What are your views on this? Do you think spoilers and wrong and evil and totally horrible things? Or is it okay to do sometimes?

[Talon87]

What a great question! :D This should be an interesting discussion, I hope!

Have any of you done that? Reading the beginning, skipping to the end, and then filling in the empty space in between?
Pretty much "never." What I have done with television series is started watching after the show started. (Like, I started watching DS9 when it was on-air for the first time around Season 3 or 4. Or I started watching TNG when it was pretty much over, and I watched a lot of it in random order before finally watching it fully in order.) But I don't usually watch the end of a movie or TV show and then go back to the middle. And I never intentionally skip ahead to the end of a book, or read ahead in a manga series.

So I got into an argument with a friend about it. I was reading a manga and I read Volume 1, then 6 and 7 (because I didn't have 2 through 5 on me) and he kept screaming to me, "OMG! YOU RUINED THE STORY FOR YOURSELF!" While I don't normally do this, this isn't the first time and I don't see why it's so horrible.
Yeah, put me down for "the Friend" category. :lol:

To me, it gives me more reason to read a book/watch a series. There have been plenty of times where I read a book or watched a show where I didn't pay attention to things because it looked uninteresting. But then this giant event happens and you don't realize until you re-read/re-watch that there were clues to that event long ago. To me, knowing a spoiler doesn't ruin anything for me, but can sometimes pique my interest in it. It gives me more reason to read/watch with more intensity because I wanted to spot every detail that would lead to the later event.
Certainly, you make a good point about going back and re-reading or re-watching stories to find clues that led up to major events. For example, people who watched Haruhi last summer probably went back and rewatched "Asahina Mikuru no Bouken" a few times and enjoyed how it made so much more sense now that they knew the identities of the actors and what Itsuki was talking about with "the key to open the door" and all that.

But I think that in general, I really grossly disagree with you here. :lol: For example ...
I'd be fucking pissed if Doppel had told me that Archer was ______ in Fate / Stay Night before I finished the show[/*:m:ae6a6]
I'd be fucking pissed if Kuno told me who died in the Dominion War before I ever got to see DS9 Season 6[/*:m:ae6a6]
I'd be fucking pissed if you told me who died in Romance of the Three Kingdoms before I ever got a chance to read it myself[/*:m:ae6a6]
For people like me and your friend, "getting there is half the fun" is true but only on the first run-through. For people like you, the middle-road of a journey holds some sort of "intrinsic value" even after you've reached your destination. People like you don't mind reading about Guan Yu knowing that he's going to die in certain circumstances at a certain person's hand, whereas for the rest of us, that moment of surprise is something we want to have built up. We want to be completely caught off guard. How to put it ......

For us, "the element of surprise" is something of great importance, and the only way (THE ONLY WAY!) to satisfy us with a betrayal story is to show two kids being best friends as kids, inseparable, like brothers, and then one day ...... one betrays the other. BAM! What a story!, we say. But for you, you don't mind knowing that Kid 1 will betray Kid 2 to begin with. You don't really give a shit about "surprises" -- you value the tale itself a little more.

I don't mean to put words in your mouth. And I'm not saying you don't like to be surprised. What I'm saying is ... surprises seem to matter to people like us a lot more than they do to people like you. And so for people like us, spoilers RUIN a story. It's like putting a canister of salt all over a beautiful dish. Whereas for people like you, spoilers make a dish all the more appetizing. It's like putting a dash of salt all over a beautiful dish.

What are your views on this? Do you think spoilers and wrong and evil and totally horrible things? Or is it okay to do sometimes?
I think spoilers pretty much suck. Like, for real, "if this was my webforum" and I could get away with being a fascist dick without grossly offending people, I would hand out 24 hour bans to first-time spoiler offenders, 7-day bans to 2nd time offenders, 1-month for 3rd, 3 months for 4th, etc. Spoilers suck. Period. I think it's very cruel to do, and I don't think I will ever see eye to eye with the sick, cruel fucks who get a kick out of spoiling stuff for others. (Like all those Harry Potter Book 6 retards two summers ago.)

[Sylar]

I don't usually do it with books, but with other things I do.

Prime example, Heroes. When I started watching, about 17 episodes had already aired. So of course, being the spoiler-junkie I am, I read the synopsis for about 7 episodes on Wikipedia. ^^ Add-On: Fully read Talon's post, sort of same thing as him.

I can see your point about it making you want to read it, but for me, I like to uncover things as I go along, cos then at the end, instead of having it all wrapped up for me, I can be like "Woo, I knew that already because of that subtle hint on Page 607!" xfd

Yeah, I'm talking proper 1000-page books, not manga. :P Although, that's just reminded me. When I got my "Darth Maul" and "General Grievous" 'graphic novels', I read the first chapter in each, then I couldn't resist turning to the end to see how it all turned out. In things like that, after the first part, you get to know the characters, so you can skip the middle and see how it turns out for them.

[Kasumi Violet]

I do that sometimes. I don't mind spoilers, because it's not the destination, but the journey of the story that I enjoy.

[Talon87]

I have to say ... for Romance of the Three Kingdoms, "you were right, I was wrong." This book would be a nightmare (and honestly probably even a little boring :|) if you had no prior knowledge of the history of the Three Kingdoms, their leaders, their famous generals, etc. A lot of the fun and excitement I have had while reading this book over the past week (and boy has it been epic! :D What a great story!) has been when I get to chapters where I recognize what's going on because I've seen really watered-down versions of the battles in Dynasty Warriors 5 and I get to read about them in full detail.

A good example would be the chapter(s) I'm on right now, which is one single level in DN5 that begins with Zhao (Zilong) Yun rescuing Ah Dou, Liu Bei's son, and clutching him to his breast while riding past Cao Cao's troops. If the player plays as Zhao Yun, the next cutscene arrives when you reach a bridge, at which point your ally Zhang Fei challenges Cao's troops if they dare pass and he bellows a thunderous roar so loud it strikes fear into their very hearts and demoralizes Cao's troops. (This is the chapter I'm ready to read right now.) Then the next event is when your ally Zhuge Liang shows up and sets fire to the fields, sending Cao's men into further panic. And finally, when all hope seems lost, your ally Guan Yu shows up on riverboat with hundreds of soldiers to aid the cause.

Well, by knowing this basic train of events in advance, it makes reading the book really exciting. Why? Some examples:
- in the game, this is one of Zhuge Liang's debut battles, but in the book, this is his third major battle alongside Liu Bei. In the previous two battles, he has also employed fire to thwart Cao's forces (first Xiahou Dun outside of Xiangyang, and then Cao Ren in the recently-abandoned Xinye), earning Zhuge Liang something of a nickname as a "fire mage." Well, reading that made me giggle with delight, because I knew that the greater inferno was on the horizon. And sure enough, it is. (Haven't gotten to it yet, but I'm psyched!)
- As another example, Guan Yu has left to find support in the book, and Liu Bei is despairing over Guan Yu's prolonged absence. I have the benefit of foresight here, that Guan Yu is going to show up right when victory looks certain for Cao Cao, and his rallied troops will turn the tide of battle just long enough to allow for Liu Bei to escape.

Another example of the foresight issue is Fan Castle. In the game, you don't see this castle until "the very end" when Guan Yu tragically perishes in the fight against Cao Ren. But in the book, Fan makes multiple appearances beforehand, and its first appearance (excitingly enough!) is when Cao Ren and Guan Yu stage a fight inside of Fan! It's crazy to think that these two men have an epic fight in Fan and, years later, will return to the same battleground to wage war once again, and that it will be where Guan Yu meets his end! Knowing this sort of thing ahead of the events unfurling makes the suspense a little bit richer here, because if I didn't know that this was going to happen, then I wouldn't really give a shit about Fan Castle, and there would be no suspense for me at all during the final fight between Guan Yu and Cao Ren. Since Guan Yu is one of the principal heroes of the tale, I'd just assume he's going to live (a~gain) and then when he DID actually die, I'd be caught off guard. Surprised, but no tension. Whereas here, in this case, where I do know ahead of time that the 2nd battle at Fan Castle will be Guan Yu's tragic demise, I'm incredibly anxious, and every time people even mention Fan Castle in the book, I get anxious about whether or not we're going to fight there next chapter, and whether or not (if we do fight there) it will be the fight that takes Guan Yu's life or not.

[Raptor Jesus]

LORD GUAN DIES?!! NOOOOOO!!!!!!

SPOILER! YOU DAMN BASTARD! I HATE YOU!

[/sarcasm]

[Talon87]

hahahahahahahahahaha. ^_^;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

*would actually feel REALLY BAD if somebody was enjoying the book all on his own, just fine, peachy keen, and didn't know about Guan Yu's tragic demise at Fan*

Although really, everybody dies some day, and knowing that one is reading historical fiction which is 70% history 30% fiction should clue one in to the fact that every single character he is reading about, love 'em or hate 'em, is going to die by the end of the book unless they're really REALLY young by the time Book 4 starts.

Actually, I think the even bigger spoiler is who else on the Shu Han team dies. :| Hint: Wuzhang Plains. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuzhang_Plains) *knows Loki and Kuno know the answer, but seriously feels uncomfortable enough now about spoiling other people's fun that he'd rather not say it explicitly*

[Raptor Jesus]

Actually, I felt the book is closer to 50% history and 50% fiction. There are just so many scenes from the book that feel totally fake.

For example, the afore mentioned Zhao Zilong saving Ah Dou and bringing the child back to Liu Bei. The end of that scene felt like it was total bullshit. Liu Bei was at an old age by then (well, this is around 200 AD, so it was pretty old) and he did that to is ONLY son?!! STFU! That's so fake!

Another example I hated was early in the book when Liu Bei was seperated from his army and his brothers and had to fend for himself. He ends up staying at some farmer's house. The farmer had no meat to serve the Hero of the North and does what? Slays his wife and serves her as the main coarse. STFU! That's horrific!

Also, later in the series, Kongming does something that in actual history was done by Zhou Yu in a slightly different way. The scene doesn't seem that fake, but it felt like it was taking away Zhou Yu's genius and putting it all on Kongming.

[Talon87]

Actually, I felt the book is closer to 50% history and 50% fiction. There are just so many scenes from the book that feel totally fake.
Well, my biggest "it feels fake" complaint were the sheer numbers of men Yuan Shao and Cao Cao have been drafting. I mean, Luo Guozhong / Ming-editor Mao (dunno who to blame) keep saying things like "Cao's forces were decimated" or "Yuan Shao's forces were slain", but then you turn around and they say, "Well, Cao Cao deployed his one million [strike:0bf79]spacebucks[/strike:0bf79]" or "Yuan Shao's sons then came to his aid and lent him 300,000 troops here, 200,000 troops there, and 200,000 troops there, bringing him close to the very size of his original army which took him years to amass." But then I was reminded of something I learned in my Chinese history class, so thanks, Wikipedia, as I quote this:

The Three Kingdoms period is one of the bloodiest in Chinese history. A population census in late Eastern Han Dynasty reported a population of approximately 56 million, while a population census in early Western Jin dynasty (after Jin re�unified China) reported a population of approximately 16 million. Even taking into account the inaccuracies of these census reports, it is safe to assume that a large percentage of the population was wiped out during the constant wars waged during this period.
So yeah. Totally forgot about that. Luo Guozhong was basically "held at gunpoint" when he wrote this story to make sure that (by the end of it) as many people were dead as history says there were. Which means he had to find a way to kill off 40 million people. That puts things into perspective. ^_^;


For example, the afore mentioned Zhao Zilong saving Ah Dou and bringing the child back to Liu Bei. The end of that scene felt like it was total bullshit. Liu Bei was at an old age by then (well, this is around 200 AD, so it was pretty old) and he did that to is ONLY son?!! STFU! That's so fake!
Haven't gotten there yet (in the book), and in the game, the level just ends when Liu Bei escapes or (as I always did it) Cao Cao is defeated, so, yeah. I have no idea what you're talking about. Unless it's this: the fact that Liu Bei tells Zhao Zilong, "I am happier to see you alive than my own son! :cry: " Which I think is hardly as unbelievable as your next example :lol: :) ...


Another example I hated was early in the book when Liu Bei was seperated from his army and his brothers and had to fend for himself. He ends up staying at some farmer's house. The farmer had no meat to serve the Hero of the North and does what? Slays his wife and serves her as the main coarse. STFU! That's horrific!
HAHAHAHA, the way you said that was priceless. :) I very much agree, though -- it was really horrific, and I couldn't help but smile and frown at the same time when I read that Liu Bei "was moved to tears" by the farmer's charity. I was then further horrified (as I'm sure you were, too!) when the farmer offered to join Liu Bei's quest to save the Han, and Liu Bei told him, "No, I can't take you along," and the farmer was like, "Oh man. :(" I was like, "THANK GOD THE CRAZY MAN AIN'T COMIN'!" That guy was seriously fucked up.


Also, later in the series, Kongming does something that in actual history was done by Zhou Yu in a slightly different way. The scene doesn't seem that fake, but it felt like it was taking away Zhou Yu's genius and putting it all on Kongming.
Yeah, Moss Roberts or Wikipedia (I forget which) made mention to that fact. I remember reading under the section which explores how Luo Guozhong was clearly "biased against Wu and in favor of Shu Han" that he basically steals a lot of Wu's thunder, gives it to Shu Han, and thereby transforms the book into this huge "Liu Bei vs. Cao Cao, Shu Han vs. Wei" struggle with Sun Quan and his "tiny" kingdom of the entire Southland relegated to back-up duty. I'm convinced (reading this story) that there's no way in hell Luo Guozhong was a Southie. He had be a Northie who worshipped Beijing and snubbed Canton. I mean, he just had to be.

But yeah, like I said, right now I'm about to start the chapter where Zhang Fei bellows "rrrrrrroooooOOOOOOOAAAAAARGH!" and scares the shit out of Cao Cao's men near the bridge in the Battle of ... the Battle of ... what is this battle called, anyway? ^_^; (I mean, it's in the middle of the forest! Somewhere between Xinye, Xiangyang, and Jiang-something.) So I have no idea what you're talking about with the "cool thing attributed to Zhuge Liang." That will sort of suck for me to read, since I love Zhuge Liang and welcome stories showing Zhuge Liang being a kickass, but I also want to honor the real figures in history correctly and give credit where credit is due. :|

[Talon87]

By the way, I thought I'd tell you that reading this story has made me realize that I am officially a chiaboo, as I can't help but wish that I was Chinese and had grown up hearing these tales and could take pride in my Chinese heritage and dream about whether or not I'm related to Xuande, Mengde, or Kongming.

[Raptor Jesus]

I don't know how you haven't read what I mentioned about Zhao Zilong since it's basically the same chapter.

Anyway, the overall population count of soldiers a known exaggeration. Basically the author added another -,000 men to most people's armies. Even if the population before and after dropped 40 million, Yun Shao's army was like 30 million strong or something like that. And if his 30 million were half killed off, I seriously doubt they had enough numbers to keep population count high for the next fight where Cao Cao's new conscripts were 30 million strong. lol. (also an exaggeration, I don't remember the numbers)

And I totally agree with the book being biased against the South. Sun Ce's conquest of all the southlands is compressed into a single chapter while Liu Bei's battles are like 3 chapters. Granted he is the main character, but come on! Sun Ce was like 20 when he conquered a large portion of China.

The other thing that feels fake is how virtuous Liu Bei is. He's so virtuous that he ends up screwing himself over several times just to uphold his thinking. Something which everyone else apparently lacks, which is also an exaggeration of Liu Bei and his brothers/generals as opposed to the other characters.

[Talon87]

Yeah. I love Xuande (the character), but I agree that I think it would be wrong of us to honor the real Liu Bei to the extent we respect Xuande, because I can't imagine that the real Liu Bei would be so virtuous. Maybe I'm a cynic, but the way I see it, a virtuous man isn't the sort of person who ends up trying to seize land from his fellow clansmen. I'm sure Zhuge Liang's advice to take away Liu Biao and Liu Zhang's land did cause the real Liu Bei some distress, but I don't think it was as much about fraternity as it was, "Oh shit, if I do that, then my claim to the throne as a protector of the Han will be de-legitimized!"

Also, there have been a few instances where I've felt the author (Luo) has been really pushing it for Liu Bei and Guan Yu, calling them "virtuous" where really (no matter how you slice it) they're imperfect. One example is Guan Yu's entry of service to Cao Cao. Yeah, it makes sense; yeah, we all understand why the real Guan Yu might have theoretically joined Cao Cao temporarily while still believing in Liu Bei; but when the sun sets and the day is done, Guan Yu still "broke the oath" since he should have fought to the death rather than give himself up to his brother's sworn enemy. :| (And the fact that Zhang Fei would have fought to the death, had he been the one on the hill, proves in my mind that he's got as much claim to being virtuous as Guan Yu has.) An example that I disliked even more was Liu Bei's betrayal of Yuan Shao when he asked Shao "send me to Runan." Shao's advisors even say to Shao, "Master! That was folly! Liu Bei will never return!" And then Shao's like, "You are all mistaken. I trust in Liu Bei. He would never betray me." It was the one time (in the entire novel!) Yuan Shao actually trusted somebody's word rather than being a paranoid freak who always suspects everyone of treason. And the one time he actually trusted somebody, he got burned, badly. And by none other than our so-called "virtuous" Liu Bei.

Like I said, I like Liu Bei a lot, and I definitely agree that he's more virtuous than anybody in the book. And yeah, there have been times where's been so virtuous he's screwed himself over in the butt because "nice guys finish last," like the time Liu Biao told him "I am dying. Please, take Jingzhou," and Liu Bei says, "I will never take Jingzhou from you, Milord," and then Zhuge Liang starts to give Liu Bei a look and later pulls Liu Bei aside and asks, "What the hell was that? :evil:" hahahaha :lol: But still, even if he is very often purported (and shown to be) virtuous, he's far from perfect, and he's done some pretty dastardly things himself for the sake of his own skin.

But you know what bothers me most about Liu Bei, Loki? :| As much as I want to like him, I can't shake the feeling that he's the novel's wimp. Like, seriously. Dong Zhuo's after him, and he appeals to Gongsun Zan. Lü Bu's after him, and he appeals to Cao Cao. Cao Cao's after him, and he appeals to Yuan Shao. Yuan Shao's after him, and he appeals to Cao Cao. Cao Cao's after him, and he appeals to Liu Biao. It's like ... Liu Bei's the snivelling weakling who can't fend for himself, and always winds up pissing off his previous ally and then running away to find a new protector. Then you have to consider, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei are the epic fighters, not so much Liu Bei. (Though he does partake in the epic three-way fight of Guan, Zhang, and Liu against Lu Bu! :D) And Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong are the epic strategists, not so much Liu Bei. Liu Bei has no real skills that qualify him to lead the empire, whereas Cao Cao is both master strategist and a skilled fighter, and Sun Quan is a master diplomat supported by the master military strategist Zhou Yu. Liu Bei's only redeeming quality seems to be one that is either "too good to be true" for the history books or, in a stroke of luck for our race, is actually the God honest truth: that he is "such a virtuous man" that his reputation precedes him, and so warriors and strategists of merit alike are attracted to serve him. Like a Buddha, Liu Bei is neither gifted in military combat nor military strategy; instead, his gifts are in his humanity.

This is why Liu Xuande is one of my favorite characters in the story (because he's like the Three Kingdoms' closest thing to a Buddha or Dalai Lama :D), but at the same time why I get angry with him and Luo Guozhong (because I fear that Liu Xuande is nothing like the real Liu Bei at all :().

[Talon87]

Got halfway through the chapter last night (before I had to go to bed since I had to be up at 7am today >_<). Got to the part you were talking about with Liu Bei and Liu Xian. Holy shit. 8O Yeah, that's definitely a silver medalist right behind the Wife Carver. The Koei video game definitely softens the story up a bit (and makes Liu Bei even more virtuous, lol) by saying he simply "was more happy to see Zhao Yun alive than his own son" and not going into the whole "throwing one's baby at Mach 3 towards the ground" bit.

[Doppleganger]

Wow, sounds like I need to read Romance of the Three Kingdoms. o_O

...

My Chinese history is very poor, though, and I've never played any games related to it.

[Talon87]

What You Need to Know about Chinese History Before touching Romance of the Three Kingdoms:
The first Chinese dynasty, the Shang, was overthrown by the second Chinese dynasty, the Zhou. The Zhou is the second most-heralded Chinese dynasty and also the longest lasting, roughly 800 years.[/*:m:7da5f]
Then the shit hit the fan, the empire fell apart, and eventually, the state of Qin won out and united the empire under its flag. Too bad Qin sucked, and only had two emperors, making it the shortest-lived Chinese dynasty ever which Chinese historians accredit as "an authentic dynasty."[/*:m:7da5f]
Gao Zu, a peasant, went on to found the Han Dynasty, picking up where the Qin left off. His dynasty would become China's most cherished of all and lasted for 400 years, making it the second longest in Chinese history.[/*:m:7da5f]
Our story takes place in the dying days of this wonderful (and much-loved) Han Dynasty. It is a clash of wills between those who wish to overthrow the Han lineage and those who are willing to die to preserve it. In actual Chinese history, the "Three Kingdoms period" (as it is known) takes place between the fall of the Han Dynasty and the establishment of the Jin Dynasty.[/*:m:7da5f]

Other Important Pointers
Read Mencius. I had to. :P :) If you don't want to, I'll list five super important relations which Confucius and Mencius value:
1 - the relationship between father and son
2 - the relationship between lord and vassal
3 - the relationship between husband and wife
4 - the relationship between elder and younger brother
5 - the relationship between friends

In all cases, quoting my textbook, "the senior leads and protects, the junior supports and obeys." Straying from these roles is dishonorable; sticking to these roles is honorable. Thus, Chinese people very much believe in the saying "it takes two to tango." Yes, it's bad if a vassal betrays his lord by not obeying his wishes; but it's just as bad if the lord betrays his vassal by failing to protect him or for leading him into harm's way. This is why Liu Bei (RoTK) is constantly apologetic for leading his followers into harm's way, and why the issue of vassals abandoning their former lords for new lords is a constant moral debate in RotK.
........[/*:m:7da5f]
Chinese historians are famous (amongst fellow non-Chinese historians) for being notoriously anti-eunuch. This is because (in real Chinese history) the Imperial family decided it would be best to have eunuchs, rather than ladies-in-waiting, guarding the royal family and whatnot, and many times in Chinese history, eunuchs became more attached to the Emperor than his own blood relations. As such, power-hungry eunuchs abused their position of power and usurped the throne. Such an event takes place in this literary masterpiece, where a group of eunuchs band together to take over the empire. So, long story short ... eunuchs = bad.[/*:m:7da5f]
Old China had two capitals: Chang'an and Luoyang. Ever since ancient times. Throughout the Han Dynasty. These have the cities. Think of 'em like "New York vs. Los Angeles." (Beijing wasn't even a consideration until the Khans came along a thousand years later.) A lot of the book focuses around these cities being conquered, razed, etc. Cao Cao (leader of the future Kingdom of Wei) establishes his capital of Xuchang just a few miles outside the city of Luoyang.[/*:m:7da5f]
The first written record of Japanese civilization takes place in the 700s A.D. Five centuries after our story takes place. This should give you some appreciation for just how ancient this story is. As you read it, I hope you will appreciate just how advanced the Chinese are compared with Romans and other contemporary nations of the world.[/*:m:7da5f]

Attachments below are as follows:
1 - 3 = scan of my history book's section on the Fall of Han, the Three Kingdoms, and the establishment of Jin
4 - 5 = the timeline in the front of my history book, to give you some feel for when the Three Kingdoms era is

[Talon87]

You're the only person I can trust to not tell me "tl;dr" , Loki. Better yet, to offer a reply. :| Still, there's nothing really new for you yet. Maybe something later tonight or tomorrow.

http://sanguostudies.blogspot.com/

[Raptor Jesus]

It was my mom's birthday (yesterday by now) and I didn't get any chances to sign on.

I'll read stuff tomorrow if I have free time (most likely yes). If anything, IM me tomorrow to remind me.