Namco Crosses the Rubicon

[Doppleganger]

Idolm@ster 2 ruined forever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHswfLjMJmw)?

IM@S' legion of Japanese fans seem to think so, and they've flooded the internet with massive amounts of hate. A deluge of fire, if you will. Even at the great bastion of IM@S videos, Nico Nico Douga (IM@S videos, along with Hatsune Miku, was one of the original doujin-content that helped make Nico popular).

The move to incorporate a boy-band dancing/singing sim is, perhaps, a step in the right direction. I was certainly surprised, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea - adding obviously mature boys helps to balance out the idea that all the women are lolis. It provides a comparison, since the Jupiter boys are designed radically different from the girls (except that one guy with a girls' face, ugh). The music isn't great, but the choreography is original, I know I've watched maybe thousands of IM@S videos and while the basic movements repeat, I haven't seen the moves those dudes showed off. No, not just the somersault. Everything, more or less.

Namco is obviously doing this to tap into the massive fangirl market. No other company has made male sims yet, so it's uncharted territory, but female yen are a well documented phenomenon. And since an X-Box 360 is required to generate the IM@S simulation with any decent fidelity, they'll undoubtedly end up buying the console too, if only for this one game.

Why the contention?

Most of IM@S' existing fans are otaku. Otaku who want to play dress up with the idols, listen to them sing and watch them dance. The original game was a blessing in that it had solid character writing and real heart underneath those three basic features, to make it a complete gaming experience, but the expansion/sequel Live 4 You did away with much of the story and outsold the original. It's clear most IM@S fans treat the game as a sort of digital Barbie world, with Barbie girls.

But the presence of boys presents a problem: competition. Even though boys existed in the original games, since the girls very obviously went to school, the level of interaction with anonymous admirers and classmates couldn't compare with the highly personal, professional, and trust-oriented relationship the girls had with The Producer. Producer played a similar role for males that Mahoro did in Mahoromatic - a person who fulfills all gender roles. Miki opened herself to Producer in a way she couldn't to her parents, teachers, siblings, classmates, or (if she were to hypothetically have one) boyfriend. She could confine different thoughts/feelings to each of them, but not everything she felt. Producer's existence became novel, and an integral part of shaping her as an adult woman (at the end of her Route).

Now, I'm aware most of the otaku would prefer an IM@S game from the POV of an idol rather than as a blank-slate, slightly older male manager. There's major fantasy going on that drives this fandom. But even said otaku would prefer being Producer to there being "competition" in any game - the mere suggestion that the female idols could take an interest in the male idols, formerly impossible because male idols didn't exist in the story, is enough to have their world crashing down. Because, why should the female idols take an interest in the otaku when such attractive (no homo) guys are around? It's sort of funny in how melodramatic it seems, but this is serious business, and that translates to serious dollars (yen).

I personally believe that the males could just make the story sweeter...a tied and true relationship, is one that doesn't just reaffirm itself after a challenge, but grows stronger. The presence of boys, that challenge, is the next step in the narrative begun by the first game. And since the writing staff from the first game is supposedly contracted for the second (they haven't all worked together on any one game since) it should be done well, and not just as a female gamer lassoing gimmick.

Regardless, Namco has officially stepped into the no backing up zone with this trailer. It's very possible the game that had almost universal support might end up having none now, only time will tell.

One last bit...I'm hoping Kotori is the only adult ever animated in-game. I liked the style of the adults being portrayed as silhouettes, I can't say I'd like the idea of old people in IM@S' artstyle.

[big bad birtha]

I was wondering when you'd bring this up. It's almost hilarious what the Japanese fans rage over. I personally think adding male idol would add more flavor. It could give you a chance to show your manliness and kick Justin Beiber....err...the male idol's ass!

Did they add a feature to hook up with the male idols? If they wanna appeal to the female audience, might as well go all the way and hook in the yaoi crowd too.

[Talon87]

Wow. Reading the comments on Youtube is ... well, it lines up with what you said. Most posts have the stereotypical Japanese politeness I've come to expect: the guy starts off by saying things like 「つーか別にアイマスは男のためだけのゲームじゃないし」 ("I mean, I know it's not like the AiMasu games are just for guys, but ..."), trying to show that he has a fair and balanced outlook on this.

And then almost invariably he finishes his post off with hate, depression, or both. One writer ends his post saying 「まぁ自分は買いませんが」 ("Well I won't be buying this ..."), and another writes what is probably my favorite line I've read so far:

もう終わりました、わたしのアイマス世界は。(〒﹏*〒)ﾉｼ

Or, "My AiMasu world is over and done with. ;_____;"

It just goes to show that, no matter what you think about the games personally, Doppel, I was right about one thing: most of the fans see it as little else than a dress-up dating sim.

Funny thing is, even the Dead or Alive fanbase wouldn't be this goddamn ridiculous. DOA has tons of sexy men (Ryuu Hayabusa, Hayate/Ein), and they feature in the girls' love lives, too. But this doesn't keep people from writing doujin after doujin after doujin with the girls in 'em. Shrug. I guess the AiMasu fanbase is as puerile as the girls they idolize so.

[Doppleganger]

Did they add a feature to hook up with the male idols? If they wanna appeal to the female audience, might as well go all the way and hook in the yaoi crowd too.

The company Jupiter is working for is Studio 961, the rival corporation to the female-only Produce 765. That company was featured in Idolma@ster SP with Takane, Hibiki and Miki as employees. Since they've got boys now, I guess it might explain why those three are now at Produce 765.

In all likelihood, the player will be able to decide at the onset to be male or female, and have the option of managing for either company. I predict given this setup the idols will only interact with one another minimally with a passing knowledge of one another. It was different when 961 managed females, those females were in direct competition. But the males? Different market, different universe.

This is the same moronic overreaction that destroyed Kannagi's author's life. I'm not sure if either of you two remember, but the author penned an "old flame" for the main female suddenly and it ruined the lives of otaku everywhere. They'd come to worship Nagi and the idea she was "impure" (a morbidly funny pun since Nagi, a priestess, cleanses "impurities" and her old flame was literally made of "impurities") caused seismic ripples that electrified power cables across the globe.

What I'd advocate, though, is that since Namco has already shot itself in the foot (maybe?) with this move, it should go beyond just making what is basically two separate games into a single, integrated one. Advance the narrative! If Namco was willing to appeal to fangirls, it should go back to giving IM@S a great story as well.


Funny thing is, even the Dead or Alive fanbase wouldn't be this goddamn ridiculous. DOA has tons of sexy men (Ryuu Hayabusa, Hayate/Ein), and they feature in the girls' love lives, too. But this doesn't keep people from writing doujin after doujin after doujin with the girls in 'em. Shrug. I guess the AiMasu fanbase is as puerile as the girls they idolize so.

DOA was always in the "fanservice" category I think. The ladies were attractive, but the players wouldn't find themselves emotionally invested in them on a personal level. Moe-marketed games seem to thrive on otaku overactive imagination, and visual novels (which by nature give another dimension to character interaction than traditional anime/manga) just amplify the stimulation.

Hearing about this outcry was an interesting supplement to an earlier article (http://www.wired.com/gamelife/2010/09/western-games-japan/) about how 'glorious' America is frustrated by 'stubborn-as-mule' Japan with how poorly FPS sell over there. One would might IM@S-like games are topping the list, but that's not true as even the most recent IM@S title barely scored above the first 'western' one (although truthfully it's years old, and not as massive a seller as the original game or L4U). Pot calling kettle, I'd say...

[Talon87]

Pretty sure I referenced it just last week, Doppel. ^^; I'd do a search for posts containing "Kannagi" by user "Talon87", but I'm on my iPhone right now and not up to the hassle.

Yes, I remember, Doppel. In fact, I don't think I'll forget for a long time.

[Doppleganger]

I found it. Great minds do think alike, and I wholly agree - the pandering can be extremely grating and that's one of the reasons I blindly rat on K-ON! and Lucky Star, despite the former being musically oriented like IM@S and the latter having an albeit sparse population of men.

Rance-related:


It reminds me of Ran's Path in Rance. Ran's Path has always been criticized as the worst route in the whole game, because Ran defied Rance so bitterly and was tortured by everyone, and Rance only 'won' because Ran was so heartbroken and destroyed she lost the courage to push after Souun.

But...the trick is, the 'good' ending is actually the 'bad' one, and the 'bad' one the 'good' one. When I reloaded and aimed for the bad end, it turned out beautifully, especially knowing what Ran's true fate was in the other routes. Rance 'lost', but the player won. Epically.

[big bad birtha]

Umm, this event happened while I was under the curse called MMO addiction. What exactly happened? I looked it up, and the most I can find is that the creator stopped writing due to "poor health" (the sources put poor health in quotations for some reason.)

[Doppleganger]

Wikipedia would only report something that was well verified, and while this incident was huge on forums, they aren't "verifiable" sources.

What happened was, there was this anime called Kannagi. It was intended to be Aniplex's response to Haruhi, and employed many of the same tactics as Haruhi - dancing, high frame rate, and very marketable characters.

Nagi is Haruhi's equivalent. She's a goddess, but is very "old school" in regard to love and relationships, and so exhibits many traditional Japanese woman traits. Her popularity online was enormous, rivaling Haruhi/Yuki among otaku squares (though Kannagi hadn't captivated the mainstream like Haruhi did). She was cute, conservative, and pure.

The problem occurred when the original author released a new chapter of the manga where it was revealed Nagi once had a prior relationship with a man. Said revelation triggered a firestorm online, and the demand for all Kannagi merchandise collapsed. No more doujins, no more online sales. Supposedly the anime's second season was canceled due to the sales plummet and the author suffered a nervous/mental breakdown as a direct result of this (the last chapter of the manga released, back in early 2009, was this controversial chapter) and she's been hospitalized since.

The underlying themes was that Nagi was portrayed as too perfect, and her support was almost entirely from otaku. Staining that idyllic image of her caused widespread and immense rejection and bitterness. Said incident wasn't commented on outside of certain places (there's not even a topic on Kannagi on AP, iirc) but the popped grapes of wrath is a textbook example of how insane J-otaku can be.

It's sort of like a repeat with the IM@S case, but Namco's not going to stop because of a bruised ego. So, we'll get an answer for IM@S 2 sooner than Kannagi, which is to be continued.

[Talon87]

This happened. (http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g92/talon87/otaku_angry_that_nagis_impure.jpg)

I tried to Google for it first but turned up nothing despite so many tries:
kannagi books
kannagi light novels
kannagi book destruction
kannagi light novel destruction
kannagi book collection
kannagi light novel collection
kannagi book collection destruction
You get the picture. So I don't blame you for asking us. It looks like the information isn't easily Googled.

The backstory:
Once upon a time, there was a moderately cute but moderately dull story called Kannagi. This cute, dull story was the apple of many otakus' eyes. They wuuuuuuuuuuuv'd Kannagi. Many of them had Mai Waifu complexes with Nagi (the main character) or her sexy split personality and "sister" Zange. Some even lusted after the ordinary girl, Girl #3, whose name I can't remember right now because she was just that ordinary.

Then one day, the author of the Kannagi books published a new revelation: Nagi had, in a former life, had a lover.

The walls came crashing down around the otaku who had once seen Nagi as Their Waifu.

Their response? The picture I linked you to up top. I'm not joking. That guy was just one of several whose trashed collections, photographed and uploaded to 2chan, were circling the English side of the 'net at that time.

EDIT: lol, on closer inspection of the picture I linked, it seems like Kannagi may have been a manga series, not a light novel series. Which could explain why I was having trouble finding the stories on Google! lol

[Doppleganger]

Yep, manga. Here's another blog post (http://behind-the.nihonreview.com/20100516/the-purity-fixation/) talking about it.

Hilarious, yet horrifying. I mean I was slapping my knees back during the time at the over-the-top reactions, but the author getting sick was seriously bad news bears.

[Talon87]

Eh, that blogger talks like he's a Japanese sociologist but he's just a denizen in the country. And from the sound of it, he's not even native born 'n' bred. He's an ex-pat. That's fine and all: but do be careful and try not to take everything he says as fact. (Especially all the postulating about how Japanese men view women as objects to be owned. That may be correct grammatically, i.e. in terms of the nouns used to describe husbands and wives; but socially?)

[Blastoise]

"Hey, Namco's in the title must be a video game topic"

*Idolmaster*

"Oh, that game."

Also: the whole Kannagi fiasco never stops being shit bananas every time I think about it. How fucking pathetically desperate do you have to be sexually to lose your shit over the purity of a fictional character?

I'm desperate, but not that desperate. Christ.

[Talon87]

It's pretty aggravating. But it also lends powerful insight into the real happenings behind Japan's most successful girl group (and likely inspiration for the Idolmaster games), Morning Musume. The girls are forbidden relationships with any boys while they are on the team. This actually was the reason for one popular idol's, Kago Ai's, canceled contract and loss of almost her entire fanbase.

From Wikipedia,
"On March 26, 2007 following a newly publicized scandal involving Kago dating a 37-year-old man as well as smoking again, it was announced by the Up Front Agency that her contract had been canceled."

Notice the bit about "smoking again"? Yeah, that, too, is strictly forbidden: since it would ruin the image many fans have of these girls as the demure pet type. The first time she was caught smoking, guess what happened? Pat on the wrist? A fine? One month's worth of probation? Guess again:

"On February 9, 2006 it was confirmed that the magazine Friday [...] would publish photos showing Kago smoking. [...] On February 10, Hello! Project issued a press statement saying that the singer had been suspended 'indefinitely.'

"According to an interview in the March 9, 2007 issue of Friday – the very same magazine responsible for her suspension – Kago revealed she had been serving tea, answering phones and doing assorted secretarial work at the Up-Front Works agency since January 23, 2007, when her employers found it fit for her to return to Tokyo, after she spent most of 2006 under house arrest at her family's residence in Nara."
(boldface mine)

I mean, for crying out loud. She spent most of the calendar year under house arrest for underage smoking!? And she spent the rest of it doing menial chores around the agency? Jeez Louise.

[Talon87]

Anyway, Doppel: check this out! Kannagi manga to return in October November (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-08-12/kannagi-manga-to-return-in-october)

[Holy Emperor]

How fucking pathetically desperate do you have to be sexually to lose your shit over the purity of a fictional character?

Sounds like every male over the age of 8 in Japan.

[Doppleganger]

That may be correct grammatically, i.e. in terms of the nouns used to describe husbands and wives; but socially?)

I'm not sure I agree with that either, but I think he nailed the idea that the Japanese are looking for some sort of emotional sanctuary that gives as much back as it takes in. It's not just about the intercourse, although that is important. Most eroge are structured in that the payoff, the actual H, can only be unlocked once the player has already won over the girl. From our POV, that suggests that the H is the most desirable, and I guess that's true, but it seems like part of the package. Opening a Christmas present implies taking off the wrapping paper first, the paper is part of what makes it a Christmas present, it's not an unnecessary and undesirable extra step.

Non-virgins aren't really an issue I think, there are numerous anime stock characters that are played as very loose. Akira's completely ignoring Eva's Misato. Even raped characters can still be desirable - Sakura being a good example, and a Rance character - but the key issue here was a sense of betrayal.

When the Japanese fans discovered Sakura was a non-virgin, they dumped her as well. This wasn't really because Sakura was impure, but because they had been fooled into thinking she was. Kannagi suffered from the same.

Idom@ster 2, however, hasn't suggested anything nearly that severe. It's merely saying that "boys exist!", so in a way this level of rancor might be even more outrageous than Kannagi's insanity.

[Blastoise]

Even raped characters can still be desirable - Sakura being a good example, and a Rance character - but the key issue here was a sense of betrayal.

Isn't Rance less about cultivating a relationship and more about living out the male fantasy of being an unstoppable rape dynamo?

[Doppleganger]

I think Kago Ai's story may have become Hidaka Ai/Mai's story. Mai was an idol who had to stop because she got pregnant with Ai and age 15. A scary implication was that she's the daughter of Produce 765's president, since he once admitted to The Producer that the idol he was managing "fell in love with him". Though, that seems to be a fairly common event with 30% of the idols developing some kind of crush on their near-aged manager of opposite sex.

Anyway, Doppel: check this out! Kannagi manga to return in October November (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-08-12/kannagi-manga-to-return-in-october)

If I'm interpreting this correctly, the announcement of when the manga will come back will be announced in the November issue? Wikipedia suggested as such, and I think that Update 2 at the bottom is also admitting it. Either way, something's coming in November, so we'll finally have some closure.

Or things might flare up again. -_-

Isn't Rance less about cultivating a relationship and more about living out the male fantasy of being an unstoppable rape dynamo?

It varies. He definitely cultivates a well-developed relationship with the main heroine, which is interesting because she's the only girl in the story he will not bang.

[big bad birtha]

Damn. It doesn't really make sense to me why the fans would rage over something like that, when those same fans are the ones who make/buy doujins that vividly show that character's impurity. I guess when it comes down to it, "If she's impure and I'm not whacking off to her, it's a travesty!"

EDIT: Nvm on that, already stated. Holy shit a bunch of responses came in while I was eating.

As for the Sakura thing, I always thought that was kinda funny. I saw a bunch of people making jokes about how she was a dirty whore, and how the grocery store wouldn't let her in because they didn't accept "used goods."

[Talon87]

Damn. It doesn't really make sense to me why the fans would rage over something like that, when those same fans are the ones who make/buy doujins that vividly show that character's impurity. I guess when it comes down to it, "If she's impure and I'm not whacking off to her, it's a travesty!"

I think the experienced doujinshi fan has a remarkable ability to doublethink these sorts of things. He wants to see these fantastically erotic stories, but he doesn't want them to be canonical.

For example, someone who is a big fan of Kaichou wa Maid-sama might want to read an erodoujinshi where Misaki is abducted by some rich pervert, is forced into becoming a sex slave maid, and eventually she comes to like it. On the final pages, she is gleefully spreading open her vagina and begging for her master's cock. Maybe she's pregnant? Maybe she's got piercings all over her body? Fetishes vary, but invariably the girl known as Aizawa Misaki has considerably changed since the start of the doujin.

This very same fan does NOT want to see such a story appearing in the official canon, ever. He wants the canonical Aizawa Misaki to be a strong, independent woman who saves herself entirely for Usui Takumi. He wants the canonical Kaichou wa Maid-sama storyline to remain rated G (or is it PG?) for its entire run. No PG-13, no R, no NC-17. Etc, etc.

The best I can explain it, I suppose, would be to say that most doujinshi fans do not see their favorite doujinshi in the same way that you might see, for example, the Star Wars novels at your local bookstore as compared to the official Star Wars movies. With the Star Wars books, you say, "Like 'em or hate 'em, they're part of that universe's official canon. I can choose to ignore them, I s'pose, but I can't expect the rest of the fandom to hop on board with me." But doujinshi ... doujinshi have zero impact on the canon of the franchise they're based on.

[Raptor Jesus]

Almost makes me glad I stopped keeping up with Anime/Manga when I see how... INSANE the Japanese are.

[Doppleganger]

Hilarious highlights of the original announcement (http://yunakiti.blog79.fc2.com/blog-entry-6736.html)! Some serious Gaijin 4 Koma action going on here.

Don't believe me?

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8308/58014951.jpg
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/1848/32566922.jpg
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9378/18882138.jpg
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1442/44814029.jpg

[Talon87]

Doppel, I just enjoyed this cute video and thought I'd share it with you here. You've probably already seen it before, but juuuust in case not ...

Version 1. アイドルマスター　「団結」 IM@S ALLSTARS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dhkzeZMV-4)
Version 2. (fansub) Danketsu 団結 HD (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3VTIHyl2SA)

I guess there was a Katamari game called Beautiful Katamari and one of its stages featured this custom IdolMaster song. :? I don't know if the song featured previously in one of the games or what, but it seems to be a cute detailing of how the girls were scouted, how they each wanted to be the leader of their respective troupes, and how each troupe comes to the realization that they don't necessarily have to appoint a leader.

Watching the video, I'm convinced anew that IdolMaster is way too loli for me to even be able to think about playing without getting the heebie-jeebies. But that doesn't mean that I walked away from it without any favorites. Of the girls I saw, I think I liked best Hagiwara Yukiho, Kisaragi Chihaya, and Miura Azusa. I would never like a girl like Minase Iori, but I think her presence in a game like this would be really fun/amusing.

Anyway, I hope you get some good news in the future regarding your IdolMaster 2. It'd be pretty cool for you if the game were to either be (a) released for PC so people could fan translate it or (b) released in America for XBox 360. (IdolMaster's still an XBox 360-only franchise, right?)

[Doppleganger]

Sorry for the late response. Danketsu is one of my favourites, although I didn't know it was a special scene in a Katamari game, just that it had something to do with Katamari. Most of the IM@S All-Star songs tend to balance out the weaknesses of the individual singers, so they're golden gorgeous to listen to. It's no surprise we haven't gotten solo songs for IM@S 2 trailers yet, and if we do it'll likely be Haruka or Chihaya.

Speaking of those two, you have good taste. :) And good ears. Azusa and Chihaya are the best singers, although Ritsuko was a pretty good one as well. Yukiho was unpredictable - sometimes she'd have great performances, sometimes not. I really liked how she had a rather high pitched, immature speaking voice but when she got onto stage, her voice became a lot more husky and mature, conveying confidence one wouldn't have expected from interacting with her before or after performances. It's a shame her CV had to be replaced, I don't think much of her successor.

Here's another (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smyOBmWzaFM) IM@S 2 trailer, featuring two new songs.

Oh...I should also point out, Talon, that Jupiter's boss (the head of Studio 961) is none other than Satoru. :D

[Talon87]

I can see it now: cries of "ANDOOOOUUUUUU!!!!!!!! YUKIDOOOOOOOOOH!!!!!!!!! :evil:" as fans irately protest the very existence of this boy band and the rival agency's tapping into them.

[Talon87]

What happens when the girls of Produce 765 get part-time jobs as hostesses at a hostess club? You get this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0TCJUjWpxs) Dream C Club has been the basis for a lot of doujins in the last year, so I decided it was about time I got off of my butt and looked it up to find out what it is. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Club) was pretty helpful, but I knew that if I wanted to get a better sense of what the game was like I would need to check it out on Youtube. And so I did.

Yeah: this is shameless Idolmaster pr0n. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP1N8d_J1UA) Cute girls, pleasant voices singing pleasant songs (link) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdsrCbeTY5w), ... except the setting is a cabaret instead of a concert hall.

So just think, Doppel: Idolmaster 2 could have turned out like this. :lol: And perhaps a certain segment of the fans would have still preferred such a development to the introduction of a rival boy band!

[Doppleganger]

Dream C Club pissed me off from Day 1. My irritation got worse when I heard of how popular it was. >.>;